Can you Tell What Boat This Is?

[Sea Hunt]

Well, I finally got to look at the Sea Sprite 23 (1976) the other day. She seemed to be in OK condition given her lack of use, etc.

I was, and remain, reluctant to make an offer on a Sea Sprite 23 because I am trying hard to hold out for my Cape Dory. However, after reading the post by "Trapper" that he bought a 1982 Cape Dory 22 (Hull No. 12) at auction for about the price of an O/B motor, well, I am demoralized, dejected, depressed, deeply saddened, etc.

I may end up making an offer on this Sea Sprite 23 just to be able to say "I own a Carl Alberg designed sailboat" even if not a Cape Dory.

With that possibility, I have the following two questions as a result of my recent inspection of this Sea Sprite 23.

There are the standard two forward cockpit drains. I inspected the piping (hoses) leading from the cockpit drains to the hull. The hoses appear to be old and fastened with only one compression clamp at each end. What struck me as odd (bearing in mind I am a "tadpole" with little knowledge and zero practical ownership experience) is that neither hose had a seacock at the hull end of the pipe. I know that generally cockpit drains should remain open to allow rain water, etc. to exit via the cockpit drains. However, I guess I have always seen sailboats with seacocks to close off these drains.

How unusual or unsafe is it to have cockpit drains with no seacocks

Second, the boom on this Sea Sprite 23 has apparently been lowered at least 1 foot, possibly more. I do not know why. The owner says it was to accommodate a new sail. That does not make sense as the new sail was manufactured by Bremen Sails in Miami. From what I understand they are a very reputable sailmaker. They would not have made a mainsail too big in the foot and have had to "lower the boom" to accommodate the extra sail material.

How much effort (and cost) would it be to remove the sail, put the boom back where it belongs on the mast (if I could ever determine that location) , and recut the mainsail to its proper size

I appreciate any information, assistance and/or advise anyone can offer.

Fair winds,

[Gary M]

Hey Sea Hunt,

Your right. Any hole in a boat below the water line needs a valve, or at least a plug as in knot meters and things of that nature. The connection should be secured with two hose clamps and both should be changed out from time to time. Plan on making this upgrade.

FWIW, the lack of a valve would make me take a good look at the rest of the boat, but that's just me.

The sail is really no big deal, everything being equal. It would help if you knew what the luff measurement was supposed to be. I figure about the same as a CD22 and you know how to find that out.

It shouldn't hurt to shorten the luff to raise the boom.

Any sail maker should be able to give you a quick estimate on cost but I'm thinking $100 to $150.

The Sea Sprite is a good looking boat, other then that I really have no experience with the model.

Sorry about Hull #12.

Gary

[bill2]

Sea Hunt

I'll try fielding your first question. I've seen early fiberglass sailboats that not only did NOT have a seacock but even the thru hull was fiberglass and glassed to the hull - on an "coastal cruiser" no less. So not entirely unusual but highly suspect for any sailing now - the original hoses are ancient ( could come apart sitting at the dock ) and the fiberglass thru hull is suspect should you need to plug the hole with a wooden plug - in an emergency. I don't know of any surveyor that won't find big time problems with it and in my experience insurance companies won't write policies for boats with them. The good news is that its not a big deal to throw out the old hose, glass thru hull and install a proper seacock - knocking $$$ from your offer.

Sails - well simple answer is try it out - if it works well you're all to the good. If it doesn't work a sailmaker can trim the sail to size while you adjust the boom height - knock off some $$$ from your offer and you're good to go. Others will know more about trim, centers of effort, weather helm ( a typical trait of CA boats ), forward visibility and such.

Good Luck . . .

[bhartley]

Sea Hunt,

If you are considering purchasing a Sea Sprite, I would point you towards the Sea Sprite board for questions. It is not as active as this board, but you will find the SS23 owners to be both knowledgeable and helpful.

Our 1975 Sea Sprite does not have sea cocks, gate valves or otherwise on the cockpit drains. This was/is standard issue. Best idea??? Probably not, but that is the way they were built.

As for the boom, the gooseneck on the Sea Sprite is not fixed (same as the Typhoon). If our boom was a foot lower, it would be in the cabin. At our slip, we move the boom up to get it out of the way. Sea Sprites have HUGE mains. The boom is 11' 4" with a 27' hoist. The main is 154 sq. ft. compared with 140 sq. ft. on the 25D and 96 sq. ft. on the Typhoon. You reef early.

All that said, of our three boats -- Ariel (our SS23) is by far my favorite. Just get in the boat and sail -- any air. Big enough for guests (you have to close the Ty's cockpit seacocks when you add a 3rd adult) and small enough to muscle in and out of her slip if the need arises.

Yes, we love the 25D, but I won't sell our Sea Sprite as I am hoping my husband will agree to sell the Typhoon instead. I think you will find that Sea Spriters are very, very enthusiastic about their beautiful and very seaworthy boats.


Bly

www.seasprites.com

[Sea Hunt]

Gary, Bill and Bly:

Thank you very much for the information and advise.

Bly, the boom on this SS 23 was almost sitting on the cabin roof

I noticed how low it was as I was trying to go below. I am short, old and fat but am generally able to contort my old bones to get in and out of places. This was a real Houdini act (at least for me).

Fair winds,

[Zeida]

Sea Hunt...

I suggest you go look at the Sea sprite website, like Bly said. They are fantastic boats, IMHO even better than the CD-22's because they have a tad (not as in tadpole) more room. you will find all types of them in their Photo Gallery section, and discover how you can control the position of the boom in the mast... some have it lower, some higher, etc. Check out the two restoration stories, quite beautiful. Don't miss out on this one!

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Zeida:

Yes, I will, reluctantly, go to the Sea Sprite website. I am not enthusiastic at all about possibly making an offer on a Sea Sprite. I just fell in love with Cape Dory sailboats. I cannot explain it. I just know how I feel. It is irrational but true love almost always is. Remember, I am 100% Sicilian Italian. When we fall in love we do so passionately. I fell in love with Cape Dory sailboats.

For what it is worth, having inspected several CD 22s and very recently this Sea Sprite 23, I believe there is significantly more cabin space in the CD 22. The CD 22s have two table top areas forward with locker space below both and a small sink in the port side table top. SS 23s do not have this, at least not the one I inspected. CD 22s also appear to have a slightly large V-berth where the porta potty can be located. It cannot be located in the V-berth in the SS 23 from what I could see during my inspection. Also, there is definitely more head room in the CD 22, albeit it is not "standing headroom".

So, when do I get to look at Bandolera II

Fair winds,

[bhartley]

Did you actually raise the main? The hoist is 27' 0" if you want to measure the luff of his sail. Even an arm-to-nose measurement should get you close. The mast is 29' 9".

We use a sail stop below the gooseneck (and another above as intended) to keep the boom up off the deck. If you drop the main without the stop, the gooseneck will go all the way down to the downhaul cleat in short order.

The port-a-pottie has its own space in the v-berth with a fold down lid. There is more room for privacy in use than on the Typhoon.

Our SS23 is a very mainstream Wickford built Sea Sprite. If you can't stomach the Sea Sprite website, here are some pictures of what they're supposed to look like. She is NOT, however, for sale.

Ariel Photos

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Bly:

Thank you VERY MUCH for the post and the pictures. I did not raise the main. I had planned to do that during a sea trial - if I make an offer, etc.

I have noticed several things right away in your pictures that tell me something is very different about the SS 23 I looked at.

First, you have a port and starboard "countertop" with a sink -similar to a CD 22. The SS 23 I looked at has none of this. Just a cabin cushion port and starboard

Second, you have a dedicated space for a porta potty. The SS 23 I looked at does not. In fact, it has what I call a "compression post" in the area where the porta potty would be - sort of like on some of the Ty Weekenders that experienced deck compression and had it corrected with a "jack-like" compression post. When they do that, there is no where to put a porta potty forward. Interestingly, the surveyor in 2005 noted a high moisture reading and flex in the deck area. Not good.

Third, you have a dedicated step into the cabin. The SS 23 I looked at does not. From the pictures it also looks like your cabin space is a little taller (higher ) than the one I looked at.

I am beginning to think that with the other differences I noted in earlier posts - round portals port and starboard, chainplates affixed to the outside of the hull (probably a good thing for inspection purposes), this may be a SS 23 that was built at home using either a kit or a basic hull mold from C.E. Ryder, Inc. It certainly does not appear to be a "stock" SS 23.

There is also an issue about the HIN. Some documents say "CER" suggesting C.E. Ryder built. Others say "WSY" which may be Wickford Shipyard.

There is also a structural issue found by the surveyor in 2005 - "repair hull to keel joint". This was apparently done by Ron Fairchild Yacht Refinishing in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl along with awlgripping the hull. The work order says "repair keel junture port and starboard". The cost was $3,750. I am trying to reach out to Fairchild Yacht Refinishing to determine if they can provide more detail about what was done, why, etc.

I guess I may be too cautious but given my very limited experience and knowledge, and my "tadpole" sailing skills I am reluctant to invest even a small sum of money in what may well be "a lemon" - and one from which you cannot make lemonade.

I really appreciate all of your help, suggestions, etc. This board is just amazing

Fair winds,

[bhartley]

I always thought that this was a nifty layout actually. Although we use the icebox on Ariel we only use the sink to store junk. The water tank never got reinstalled. The opening ports are very nice!

We use the cabin to sleep and this seemed like a more sensible layout. For cooking, I used a single burner stove on the bridgedeck. We usually ate in the cockpit (as we still do on the 25D). Tables, lockers, etc. down below are just not that useful if you're stooped over to use them. We have a friend who lives on his Cape Dory 25, but he is single!

As for the potty, we keep our PP in the aft portion of the quarter berth on the Typhoon as we discourage its use! Because of the compression post on most Ty's the PP space with the cute wooden front/lid becomes unusable.

As for the yard... Ryder finished a lot of the final Wickford hulls when they got sold. That is also pretty normal in the SS23 world. Our 25D has lots of 1984 markings, but it is listed as a 1985 on the HIN.

[Clay Stalker]

Sea Hunt:

Before discounting the cockpit drains without seacocks as bad engineering, check to see if they are in fact below the water line....because of the long overhangs on these boats, they may not be. Mine on my SS28 are not below the waterline.

As for SS23s, there were actually 3-4 builders as well as a few homemade ones. A good write-up on the boat can be found in an older issue of Practical Sailor and in their larger volume boatbuying book. The article can also be ordered on line from Practical Sailor...a bit pricey for a magazine article, but it is a very thorough review and worth having if you are considering this boat.

SS23s are not that rare, and good ones come on the market pretty regularly. I would hesitate before buying one you are not sure of. Speaking of which, if you are looking at that size boat, you might also consider the Quickstep 24, a nice looking, great sailing Ted Brewer design....there are a few of those around, built by either Ryder, Dyer Boat (The Anchorage), or Shannon. All are good construction, Shannon probably the best. I had a Ryder model years back....loved that boat.

[Sea Hunt]

I apologize in advance for continuing to ask questions about a sailboat that is not a Cape Dory (albeit designed by Mr. Alberg).

I talked with the company that did the keel/hull work. They stated that it was NOT structural. They said that Sea Sprites have keels bolted to the hull. After time, there is always (his words) separation at the point of the hull meeting the keel. It has to be faired in, etc.

Is this reasonable Is it common with keels that are bolted on versus the keels that are poured as part of the hull (like CDs)

My tadpole thought would be that the keel bolts would be exposed to salt water at the separation point (even if only a few millimeters of separation) and that the bolts will rust, fatigue and fail.

Am I being paranoid

Below is a list of what was done to this Sea Sprite in 2005 when the current owner bought her in March 2005.

Ron Fairchild Yacht Refinishing (3/05):

1. Repair keel juncture port and starboard $3,750
2. Refinish teak exterior “
3. Repaint hull Awlgrip Flag Blue “
4. Detail deck & interior “
5. Affix name & hailing port; remove additional epoxy $ 600
6. New engine mount & aluminum compression plate $ 120

Bremen Sails (6/05):

1. Harken Furler $ 725
2. Luff Conversion $ 90
3. Mainsail 6.53 oz & cover $1428
4. 150% Roller Genoa w suncap $ 775

Hurricane Harbor Marina (8/05 - 10/05):

1. Haul & pressure clean $ 282
2. Pettit Vivid Bottom Paint $ 150

Nautor Marine (9/05):

1. Service 5 HP Nissan-gaskets, impeller, plugs $ 110
REMOVED HONDA O/B??? Explain this!!!


Dam Rigging, Inc.:

1. New standing rigging, swage fittings, turnbuckles (10/05) $2,313
2. Install Harken 00 Furling System (5/05) $ 860


APPROXIMATE TOTAL: $11,203


Any thoughts

I will try very hard to make this pne of my last post on the issue of this 1967 Sea Sprite 23.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions, comments, advise, etc.

Fair winds,

[Clay Stalker]

Sea Hunt:

No need to apologize for commenting on or asking questions on this board about boats other than CDs. There are many ex-CD owners like myself and owners of various other boats who still frequent this board and value the comraderie and generous information that members willingly share. While the primary focus is certainly on Cape Dorys, other information can be valuable to us all as sailors.

The external keel on SS23s were on the early boats, those built by American Boatbuilding Company, Sailstar, Wickford Shipyard, and Bristol Boat Company. According to Practical Sailor, when Clarke Ryder obtained the rights to the SS23, he built new molds that encapsulated the keel (like Cape Dorys). His boats start at hull #525 around 1974 and go to 700 something before ending in 1985.

$3,700 sounds like a lot of money to patch up a hull to keel joint....unless they replaced the keel bolts etc. Otherwise, perhaps more work was needed and done for other reasons....I certainly cannot and won't comment on this boat as I don't know anything about it, but as I said, there are a lot of SS23s around....there are two nice ones on the hard at Bristol Marine in various stages of restoration going on, and at least 5 beauties on moorings within a stone's throw from my mooring.....in fact, the only boat more common in Bristol Harbor than SS23s are Cape Dorys....several Typhoons, several CD25s, a 27, 30, 31, and 36 all within view of my mooring. So don't rush...lots of really good boats around!!

[Sea Hunt]

Clay:

Thank you.

The only really big advantage to this Sea Sprite 23 is its location. It is on Miami Beach and less than a 1 hour motor/sail to a mooring field on Biscayne Bay.

This Sea Sprite is a 1976. She is Hull Number 581. So according to the Practical Sailor article she should have an encapsulated hull, but according to the marine survey in 2005 and the boatyard that did the work, she does NOT have an encapsulated hull. Yet another mystery.

My post was not very clear. The $3,750 also included "Refinish teak exterior, Repaint hull Awlgrip Flag Blue and Detail deck & interior".

I try hard not be in a rush but I have been looking now for more than 2 years. When I read posts like my good friend Carl T. now owning TWO Cape Dory sailboats, it is demoralizing.

Fair winds,

[Dick Barthel]

Sea Hunt,

Your posts are alway interesting and the boat you're discussing is a comparable classic so in my humble opinion, there is no need to limit your posting in any way.

Besides, you're giving Clay a great opportunity to share his considerable knowledge on the subject. I can't imagine anyone who has done more research on the various boats that are in the class of boats that you are interested in.

Dick