Expected life of marine battery

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Larry DeMers

Re: An explanation..grab a cold one first..

Post by Larry DeMers »

Hi Dave,

You are Correct -Sir! Nicads are a totaly different breed of battery, which I also did research work on a gillion years ago. They have up til now had problems with a memory of the discharge floor, and then never charging up beyond that floor. That reportedly has now been cured, just in time for Nicads to be outlawed due to the mercury content.

Wet cells are different. They suffer when not used much, then are recharged, but it is not a life threatening problem..as in nicads. They just lose their lives faster due to part of the plate getting eaten up heavily and the rest not getting much use at all. The cell is not fully working..only part of it is.

Enter the equalization charge. This has at least two effects that are of immediate interest here. It shakes up the electrolyte with bubbles and currents, and this tends to distribute the electrolyte evenly through the cell, so that the whole cell can be utilized.

The second benefit is what happens to the battery as a whole. Consider this situation: Battery is in use for several years, and over time, one cell has a better production rate of current than the others. This is fine as it is But now add in a cell that lags the rest in production, which there certainly will be if there is one that is higher..right? 'Sointenly! So ok, now the battery is "Unbalanced", with the cells all producing more or less than the rest, with one clear loser. This situation will now escalate due to other processes. The low guy gets progressively lower in output. Trouble is..this then increases the self-discharge rate of the cell..how long it holds a charge sitting idle. The darn thing will self discharge faster now as the rest of the cells try to pick up their lagging friend and get him to their voltage levels.

The whole battery voltage should have been say 12.8v open circuit. Now with this low cell, it has dropped to 12.2v and next month to 11.8v etc. You will notice a definite current loss also..or throttling effect due to the low cell..they are in series, and a higher resistance to current flow in that low cell will drop voltage and waste energy thru excessive heat, which causes excessive gassing, which dries out the cell faster, increasing the SPG until the electrolyte is so concentrated that it forms little stalagmites to grow between cells, shorting them out..now that battery is worth $5.00 as trade in at WalMart.

In your case, if you have access to a 120vac 15A supply, go get yourself a small Guest or Statpower or ?? 3 stage charger. Make sure you can do this equalization charge with that charger..it should brag in the specs about this ability. Charge as often as you like to do it, and a few times during the summer, give the battery the EQ charge for 30 minutes or whatever the charger recommends for your bank size. This will tend to even out the individual cell voltages, and to redistribute the electrolyte.

You will find a marked increase in battery life, a marked decrease in the gassing you noted (gassing is overcharging, plain and simple. During EQ, we do it intentionally and in a controlled way. During charging, it is just a waste of water, and can damage the battery long term).

I realize how much you enjoy the simplest system you can get by with..and I have actually practiced this myself with my former boat, and 20+ years of backpacking and canoe camping where you were either a minimalist or a chiropractors best patient. Now with DLM, we have asperations of going farther than our horizons presently allow..repeatedly. Maybe we will get to the Med someday even. I know that my heart is set on seeing the Azores in my own boat...

...so we have been quietly upgrading our home as money allows and before money is worthless (kidding..?). My system is more involved compared to a bare-bones system, no doubt, and I do not advocate going as far as I did unless you have a need for 400+aH of total capacity (225aH to the 50% point), and total independence for long periods of time (>1 Month).

While the boiling..really just gassing, will certainly mix the elctrolyte..it also damages the cells over time through overheating them, causing the cell separators to buckle, moving the whole cell structure, sometimes shorting them to each other internally. So simply overcharging a bunch then replacing the water gaurantees a three year battery life.

Hope all this helps..;^)

Cheers Cap't.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Captain,

Do you mean to say that I don't need to discharge the batteries to about 50% and then recharge them to maintain the full "depth" of charge. All I need to do is to hit them with an "equalization" charge to restore the full "depth" of charge or shall we rightly call that "capacity"? So, flooded batteries are not like ni-cads, that will take a set if only discharged a little and then recharged. This then would make a ni-cad show full charge when in fact the charge is very "shallow".

When I recently pulled the batteries and took them home to charge them, I noted that the electrolyte level was down a little in each cell. Plates weren't exposed, but level was definately down. Did it just evaporate, or is this an indication that in fact the batts. had been brought to an "off gassing" state and boiled off some electrolyte when charged by the alternator?

I don't remember what top voltage is when the alternator is charging, but I seem to remember about 13.5 to 13.8 volts. Wouldn't that cause the electrolyte to "boil" and remove the stratification p>
........
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Dave Stump


demers@sgi.com
Larry DeMers

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by Larry DeMers »

Wow Murray,

Those 6v cells weigh 70 lbs each, and you lug them around every three months?! You must be in weight training or maybe wrestling crocs?? That is a lot of work my friend. Why not just let both banks rest easy in your boat, run their positive leads to a battery switch (1-2-both-off), and select battery 1 for 3 months, then battery 2 for the next three? ...and save your back? heh, I bet the beer tastes better after lugging those babies around so much. I about broke something permanently wrestling my two Trojan golf carts into the area under my v-berth, but it was a great spot for them and it has worked out very well. It was worth it.

Cheers and have a great Summer! Ours is definitely gone here..had snow flurries on Lake Superior already.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~Sailing onto the hard on Lake Superior~~~grrr

Murray Glue wrote: I use two Trojan six volt batteries in a single bank on my Cd30. They have lasted 3 years so far, but every 3 months I change them with two others which are kept at home and cycled whenever I can ( every month or so ) to keep them alive. The ones on the boat have a solar panel and regulator to keep them in good shape. I think that split battery systems and split charging systems are just too complicated for my little ship...I am happy to be the battery monitor, and checking them is one of the ships regular jobs.

Murray Glue
CD30 Dayspring
Nelson
New Zealand


demers@sgi.com
mike/compinche

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by mike/compinche »

Mr DeMers.
I follow your write ups about battery life and proper management with great interest and in time should be able to gain a better understanding of the mystery of electricity on the go....
meanwhile i appreciate your info on using batt 1 2 all off on a three month on off...in time i plan to apply some of your know how
thanks for keeping us current
cheers/mike



compinchecd30@yahoo.com
Murray Glue

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by Murray Glue »

Do I detect the faintest note of sarcasm ? And this is a family bulletin board !! Seriously though, having been wiring boats for a very long time and running great banks of computers and GPS based navigational extravaganzas offshore for even longer, I am becoming more and more convinced that you dont gain alot from complexity on small boats. So I stick to my 2 heavy Trojans ( they come with handles and I am but a slight person ), but cannot see how I would manage to get 12 volts out of them month after month with a 1,2,both,maybe switch. They are series connected.
FYI I also mad enough to want to navigate by sextant whenever I can, having laboriously cleaned up the bullshit in the traditional calculation methods. I find it exhilirating to be able to shoot stars and things and come up with an accurate fix while the ships captains I work with look on in wonder.

Enough from me...I have to join a chopper and go fix some sophisticated contraptions offshore in Thailand. I wonder if a 1,2, evrything switch would be helpful.

Cheers all,

Murray
CD30 Dayspring
nelson
New Zealand



murray@offshoretechnical.com
Larry DeMers

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by Larry DeMers »

Hi Murray,

Nope, no sarcasm was intended at all. I was concerned by what you said,
".. I use two Trojan six volt batteries in a single bank on my Cd30. They have lasted 3 years so far, but every 3 months I change
them with two others which are kept at home and cycled whenever I can"

I was saying that you might consider putting both sets in the boat at the same time, then using a 1-2-both-off switch to select bank one (of two Trojans in series) or two (of the other two Trojans in series) to be used. Both banks could then be recharged by the alternator and you would have a standby bank in place ready to go with the flip of a switch. This is not complicated..is in fact the basic system that the boat came with I believe.

Certainly complicated systems can be a time consumer to install and maintain, and if there is nothing gained by the complication, then why do it? With the idea above, you will save your back by not having to lug 140 pounds of battery around every 90 days. Seems that the benefit is substantial compared to the modest increase in complexity..a switch you should already have aboard.

Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 on Lake Superior

Murray Glue wrote: Do I detect the faintest note of sarcasm ? And this is a family bulletin board !! Seriously though, having been wiring boats for a very long time and running great banks of computers and GPS based navigational extravaganzas offshore for even longer, I am becoming more and more convinced that you dont gain alot from complexity on small boats. So I stick to my 2 heavy Trojans ( they come with handles and I am but a slight person ), but cannot see how I would manage to get 12 volts out of them month after month with a 1,2,both,maybe switch. They are series connected.
FYI I also mad enough to want to navigate by sextant whenever I can, having laboriously cleaned up the bullshit in the traditional calculation methods. I find it exhilirating to be able to shoot stars and things and come up with an accurate fix while the ships captains I work with look on in wonder.

Enough from me...I have to join a chopper and go fix some sophisticated contraptions offshore in Thailand. I wonder if a 1,2, evrything switch would be helpful.

Cheers all,

Murray
CD30 Dayspring
nelson
New Zealand


demers@sgi.com
Mario

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by Mario »

FWIW--

We do have a marine battery charger attached to a bulkhead in Rhapsody--it's a Nautilus, and the batteries are always attached to it. We do not leave the boat attached to shore power when we're away during the week. We do connect to shore power when we arrive for the weekend to make sure the batteries are topped off. We're not big consumers of 12V juice--just cabin lights, VHF, depthsounder, etc., so the batteries are never discharged very much, and never deeply discharged.

The batteries that came with the boat were Interstate brand--which I assume is a decent battery. Should I switch brands to West or something else?

Mario



capedory252@aol.com
Larry DeMers

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by Larry DeMers »

Mario,

It could be that the batteries have not been getting fully recharged after your use. If you hit the dock like we do, with a few extra minutes left to put the boat away, then off to the car and the race home..well, I suspect that the charger was never turned on. Then if you do turn it on when you arrive next time, how long do you leave it on?
I am not familiar with your charger, but suspect it is a ferro-resonant charger. These chargers are horribly heavy beasties that take forever to fully charge your batteries..and the little boost given to the bank before taking off on Fridays will not do the job. For example, the ferro charger I replaced would take most of a week to bring the cell voltages up to 13.8V, the cutout point for that charger. Yours may be similar.

If you have a short battery life..and you certainly do, then either the charger is not finished with it's work, or there is a load that is bypassing the normally off panel switches, stealing power from the bank while you are gone. But at any rate, it sounds like the batteries are ready for replacement again. By the way, Interstate Batteries are great batteries. I have their group 31 now, and also a new group 24 starting battery.

You should get 5-10 years from your batteries if they are charged as they were designed to be charged, and if the electrolyte level is maintained above the plates at all times, and if the cell is not drawn down past 10v at any time. All of these will kill a cell very quickly.

What you could do is to leave the charger on all week long, and keep an eye on the electrolyte levels for a bit to see that the charger is not gassing the cell. A check every couple weeks should be sufficient at first. Then once a month.

..or you can keep the Interstate dealer happy by buying more of his products..;^)

Best of Luck~!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer


Mario wrote: FWIW--

We do have a marine battery charger attached to a bulkhead in Rhapsody--it's a Nautilus, and the batteries are always attached to it. We do not leave the boat attached to shore power when we're away during the week. We do connect to shore power when we arrive for the weekend to make sure the batteries are topped off. We're not big consumers of 12V juice--just cabin lights, VHF, depthsounder, etc., so the batteries are never discharged very much, and never deeply discharged.

The batteries that came with the boat were Interstate brand--which I assume is a decent battery. Should I switch brands to West or something else?

Mario


demers@sgi.com
Larry DeMers

Re: how is battery life measured...

Post by Larry DeMers »

Sean,

The problem with those numbers is that you are showing an industrial discharge curve, which ends at a near dead battery, 10.5v. Take that puppy to 10.0 and that battery will be replaced within a year. In marine applications using a deep cycle battery, we stop the discharge at either the 35% or 50% of capacity discharge point. The reason is that by doing this, the number of life cycles goes up incredibly. Rolls Batteries brag about getting literally 1000's of cycles out of their cells if the discharge is kept above the 30% point...and a 3 step charge program is used. I personally had one group 31 last 10 years as our only house bank, and it began service as my trolling battery before I bought our boat. So that thing had to have a thousand cycles on it easily.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~Sailing Lake Superior~~~

Sean Morgan wrote:
Mario wrote: This weekend one of Rhapsody's 12V batteries died. We replaced the other one in May. Both were only about 2 years old, according to the punched tapes on the batteries, and both came with the boat which we bought 6/00. Replacing them isn't expensive or difficult, but I was surprised to get only 2 seasons' worth of use out of them. We don't use them much except to start the engine so they are fully charged all the time. We noticed that as the batteries failed they would apparently charge fully on engine power or shore power, but even minimal use would completely discharge it. Water levels were fine and maintained all summer.

So--can we expect to replace these batteries every other year?

Mario
s/v Rhapsody
CD 30 #252
Once you established why your batteries failed, your next step is to chose the proper type of battery.
FYI - Battery life expectancy is generally measured by the number of "cycles" they are capable of before they fail to hold roughly half their charge. A 'cycle" is defined as taking a fully charged battery and discharging it down to 10.5 volts. It is then charged back up to its full capacity.

As a good rule of thumb, marine starting batteries are capable of 75-95 cycles, deep cycle batteries are capable of about 200, and some gel and AGM batteries can cycle as many as 300 or more times.

Take a look in the West Marine 2001 catalog, electrical section, pages 556 to 560. In particular read the West Advisors for some great and easy to understand info re 12V batteries.

Have fun
Sean Morgan
S/V Irie


demers@sgi.com
Catherine Monaghan

Deep Cycle Battery FAQs

Post by Catherine Monaghan »

Dave,

Maybe the information at the following website will help you:

<a href="http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/dcf ... faq.htm</a>

Be sure to read <a href="http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/dcf ... 5">Section 7.5</a> which explains why the shallower the average discharge, the longer the total battery life. Read all of <a href="http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/dcf ... 7">Section 7</a> for that matter. It discusses how you can increase the life of the batteries and the importance of maintenance.

Hope it helps.

catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Raritan Bay
Rahway, NJ
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Captain,

Do you mean to say that I don't need to discharge the batteries to about 50% and then recharge them to maintain the full "depth" of charge. All I need to do is to hit them with an "equalization" charge to restore the full "depth" of charge or shall we rightly call that "capacity"? So, flooded batteries are not like ni-cads, that will take a set if only discharged a little and then recharged. This then would make a ni-cad show full charge when in fact the charge is very "shallow".

When I recently pulled the batteries and took them home to charge them, I noted that the electrolyte level was down a little in each cell. Plates weren't exposed, but level was definately down. Did it just evaporate, or is this an indication that in fact the batts. had been brought to an "off gassing" state and boiled off some electrolyte when charged by the alternator?

I don't remember what top voltage is when the alternator is charging, but I seem to remember about 13.5 to 13.8 volts. Wouldn't that cause the electrolyte to "boil" and remove the stratification problem?

Thanks for your help Larry........

Dave Stump


catherine_monaghan@merck.com
matt cawthorne

Re: Expected life of marine battery

Post by matt cawthorne »

Mario,
I used to have problems with my batteries continually. In the end I ditched the stock ferro-resonant charger and put in a lightweight 3 stage charger from West. Now the batteries get topped off nicely within a few hours. Once the batteries are charged it drops back to 13.3 volts. My Trojan/West batteries are about 4 years old and are doing well despite running the refrigeration. I equalize the batteries every year or so. Over-doing the equalizing can kill batteries as well.
I consider it bad form to leave a boat plugged in while not attended to. I watched a boat in our marina set the dock on fire a few weeks ago. I am happy that it happened on a weekend while we were there. It was easy to contain and put out as long as someone was there. The electrical systems on CD's were not their strong point. I recommend that you buy a multimeter and learn what voltage things are being charged at. You will find the multimeter invaluable in the long run.
The motion of the boat can go a long way towards mixing the electrolyte. At least if we are lucky.

Matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
Walt Bilofsky

Equalization Question

Post by Walt Bilofsky »

Larry DeMers wrote: In your case, if you have access to a 120vac 15A supply, go get yourself a small Guest or Statpower or ?? 3 stage charger. Make sure you can do this equalization charge with that charger..it should brag in the specs about this ability. Charge as often as you like to do it, and a few times during the summer, give the battery the EQ charge for 30 minutes or whatever the charger recommends for your bank size. This will tend to even out the individual cell voltages, and to redistribute the electrolyte.
Larry,

A few years back I replaced the ferro-resonant charger on Golden Phoenix (30' powerboat) with a 40 amp Statpower three stage charger. My house bank is four type 27s in parallel. The Statpower instructions say to equalize until the cells' specific gravities have not changed in several hours. You said 30 minutes might be enough equalization. I'm confused.

Regards,

Walt



bilofsky@toolworks.com
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