sailing technique question

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Craig

Re: I think Mike's got it

Post by Craig »

Tom,
Thank you very much for your input. I do think that you and Mike have summed up what was happening to me. I was hesitant to post the original message/question, but am now glad that I did. I've learned something important.
Craig
Tom wrote: I think Mike's got the answer. You may have been what is called "stalling the rudder". It is essential to keep speed on the boat because it is the water rushing past the rudder which gives you any steerage. If you lose your speed, then turning the rudder has no effect on steering the boat. The boat stops and with the rudder hard over can't get going again. She tends to wallow and get pushed one way or the other by the wind. Once she started to get going you pushed the tiller hard over and stopped her again when she started to wallow and fall off to leeward or got pushed by the waves.

You can visualize sailing as being like flying a glider. You can't pull back on the stick and try to fly straight up because the plane just stops and starts falling. Likewise with sailing. You want to bring the nose up into the wind but you can't just push the helm all the way over because it's like trying to fly your airplane straight up. Sure you want to sail up into the wind, but you have to do it gradually while keeping the boat moving through the water as fast as possible. So you have to fall off (point downwind a little) and get the boat moving through the water. Once you have your speed up you slowly put the helm over a little bit and make a little course change, then you fall back down to get up speed again, but not all the way so that you've made a little gain into the wind. As soon as you start to slow down you fall off a little again and get up speed, then you do the whole thing again going a little to weather then making speed then going to weather then making a little speed. If you suddenly put the helm over, as you apparently did, then the rudder starts slowing the boat and the boat can't respond to that much rudder and so it "stalls", i.e., like trying to fly your plane straight up. Once it loses speed you have no rudder and the waves and wind push you around.

Learning to sail close hauled (as high as you can without stalling)is one of the most difficult things to learn and in some ways is an art and a feel that is learned with time. There is a sound that a boat makes when it is making good speed through the waves. I think of it as "chuckling". It's a happy splash that boils along. When I'm teaching people to sail I try to get them to listen to the wake and when it stops chuckling I tell them the boat is unhappy because it slowed down. To keep it happy you have to keep it "chuckling".

These are just cute ways to visualize and feel what is going on. It is very common for new sailors to stall the rudder. They want to go over there so they put the helm over and stop the boat then they are going even less toward over there so they give it more helm and stop the boat even more until finally you're dead in the water and the helm doesn't respond.

At least this sounds like what may have happened. Were you zipping along knifing through the waves and leaving a nice wake? If not, you may have had the rudder stalled. It's hard to know without seeing what you were doing, but I hope this helps, and at least it gives you some possibilities to contemplate. Good luck and don't give up, these are great sailing boats.

Craig wrote: I am a novice sailor and would like to get some feedback about some sailing I did today. I had my Ty out on the lake. The winds were from 15 to 20 mph (if not a more). The water was choppy (I'm guessing 1-3 ft waves) with numerous whitecaps. I had my working jib up and one (and only) fairly deep reef in the main. I was tacking back to the bouy on a port tack and was experiencing considerable lee helm (which was somewhat unnerving). My thought, for which I would appreciate comment on, was that I had the main sheeted out too far, and therefore the center of effort was too far forward. If this was the case, I should of sheeted in the main more to better balance the center of effort. However, as I sheeted in the main the increased force on the main produced excessive heeling. This leads me to conclude that the main should have been more deeply reefed (if I had had another reef point) to balance the boat. Or I shouldn't have been out there in first place given the wind strength and the inability to reduce my sail area any further. Is this a reasonable explanation or am I all 'wet'? Thanks for any comments.
Craig


cnspsych@aol.com
Geoff Safron

I agree

Post by Geoff Safron »

If I may put my own two cents in (because I know exactly the "learning curve frustration" you're feeling...been there many, many times)...

Two things that getcha when you're learning to sail is an anxiety about heeling, and overcompensation on the helm. Usually a boat (and particurly a Cape Dory) can handle far more lean than feels healthy to your inner ear; once you get used to the fact that she won't actually keep on tipping and capsize, but will actually find a comfy "groove" (which I think is the point at which the waterline is the longest...am I right, boys?) you'll find she's happiest and most stable heeled over in frisky winds like that. And secondly if you are experiencing a helm bias (lee or weather) one tends to overcompensate with the rudder while you're learning her ways, making for a zig-zag course that decreases your speed, and thus your maneuverability (as Tom mentioned, "stalling the rudder"). So, assuming you don't have too much canvas up for the weather conditions (a learning curve in itself), my "sage" (ha ha) advice is to lean 'er over, and make incremental tiller adjustments until you find her sweet spot. Hang on, and enjoy the ride! And don't feel at all foolish for asking...every man and woman on this board has been right there...the best sailing school there is!



brainstorm@unidial.com
Mike Thorpe

Re: sailing technique question

Post by Mike Thorpe »

Craig,

Glad that I was able to help. Sailing to windward is the toughest and most rewarding point of sail. All it takes is practice and paying attention to what the boat is telling you. There is a groove and once you have been in it you'll know when you aren't.

Next time you are sailing try this. Sit to windward, get the boat hard on the wind and harden up all sails. Hold the tiller in one hand and the main sheet (uncleated) in the other). You should have weather helm at this point. Hold the tiller an inch or so to weather of the centerline and ease the main until the tiller is exerting a slight leeward pressure against your fingers. Loosen that death grip you have on the tiller until the contact is between your 4 fingers and the tiller. At this point your thumb should be along for the ride. Now you can sail the boat to windward using the pressure against your fingers as a guide. If the pressure increases (gust or lift)let the tiller move to leeward to reduce the pressure. Conversley, if it decreases (hole or header) pull the tiller to windward. You can simulate these changes in the wind by loosening and tightening the main sheet. Keep the tiller movements small and wait for the boat to respond. Let me know how it goes.

Mike



mthorpe@capecod.net
Craig

Re: sailing technique question

Post by Craig »

Mike,

Very helpful. I will practice this technique this weekend and let you know. Again, thanks to all of you for the input.
Craig
Mike Thorpe wrote:
Craig,
Mike Thorpe wrote: Glad that I was able to help. Sailing to windward is the toughest and most rewarding point of sail. All it takes is practice and paying attention to what the boat is telling you. There is a groove and once you have been in it you'll know when you aren't.

Next time you are sailing try this. Sit to windward, get the boat hard on the wind and harden up all sails. Hold the tiller in one hand and the main sheet (uncleated) in the other). You should have weather helm at this point. Hold the tiller an inch or so to weather of the centerline and ease the main until the tiller is exerting a slight leeward pressure against your fingers. Loosen that death grip you have on the tiller until the contact is between your 4 fingers and the tiller. At this point your thumb should be along for the ride. Now you can sail the boat to windward using the pressure against your fingers as a guide. If the pressure increases (gust or lift)let the tiller move to leeward to reduce the pressure. Conversley, if it decreases (hole or header) pull the tiller to windward. You can simulate these changes in the wind by loosening and tightening the main sheet. Keep the tiller movements small and wait for the boat to respond. Let me know how it goes.

Mike


cnspsych@aol.com
D. Stump, Hanalei

Re: Novice at the helm....

Post by D. Stump, Hanalei »

Craig,

I agree with everything everyone else has said. Ya know, one thing I do on Hanalie when she has visitors on board is to ask if anyone would like to man the helm. Two reasons for this, if the visitor is really a lubber, not used to being at sea, they may already be getting seasick and manning the helm can help stabilize them. Secondly, manning the helm appears to be really easy (it isn't) so the visitor is likely to do it so that they feel part of the crew.

Now, don't misunderstand me, if I assign a lubber to the helm, he/she is watched like a hawk! They may not know how to navigate, nor know where local hazards to navigation are(I don't want to be driven ashore while allowing a lubber to have a good time), besides, there is the legal requirement at least in Connecticut, that the person steering has to have completed a boater safety course. One thing I have noted with a lubber at the helm, and I feel it in the pit of my stomach so to speak, is that they will invariablly steer an "S" shaped course! This verring back and forth, will make the Captain of Hanalei SEASICK, right now! Even if I have experienced crew at the helm, when I appear on deck, the first thing I look at is the wake: Is it STRAIGHT? If not, the helmsperson must hold steady, not try to correct for every slap of the seas the vessel takes. She will stear a straight course, if left alone. But, manning the helm takes getting used to, and it is all a part of the fun of learning to sail.

Someone else said that these vessels feel good and Happy when they are in the "Grove". I find the grove I like by putting my lee side foot outside of the cockpit coaming. If my foot stays dry and she "chuckles", she's in the grove; if my foot gets WET, it's time to reduce sail!!!

Craig, take her out this weekend, play with her, raise her jib and spanker, have a good time(your vessel, not your female friend!!!), it's fun learning to sail!!!

FWIW.....

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
Harris

Sail condition

Post by Harris »

It takes experience to judge the condition of your sails. If they are tired....the boat will be much more tender and cause you to overcompensate for the increased weather helm. If the boat is really ovepowered it is trying to round up and you are overcompensating by trying to steer away from the wind......and when the boat surges down a wave it follow the helm........and when it looses speed it trys to round up.If the boat is in good shape....treat yourself to a new main and jib.....makes those heavy air days a blast.



hg@myhost.com
Geoff

Well said, Mike.

Post by Geoff »

Craig;

You can tell by all the response your question has gotten that everybody loves to give a newbie advice. It's obvious Mike is an actual sailing instructor: he's giving you simple practical how-to's. I wish I'd heard those exact words way back when.

If it's any consolation, I had to learn how to sail all over again when I got Commedia, my first wheel-steered boat. The worm-gear took all of the tactile feedback out of the equation, and because I'd learned on tiller boats, I found myself being horribly dislexic...zigging when I should be zagging! The moral of the story: real sailors learn something new every day out there. Ironically enough, it's a big part of the joy!



brainstorm@unidial.com
Bob B

Lee Helm Happens

Post by Bob B »

Craig,
This has been a most interesting discussion of sail trim and balance.

On my typhoon, I have experienced lee helm several times. It was due to an over powered headsail and a close reach. I often sail my ty in winds described and it is no problem to sail it with a reefed main and no headsail. I usually sail up wind with just the main, leaving the jib tied on deck as described by Mike Wakefield. Then, as I turn downwind, drop the main and then raise the jib. The headsail pulls the boat downwind, keeping the bow up and reducing the tendency for the boat to yaw. Also, there is no worry of a gybe. With a short crew, it is no problem on the typhoon. Even while sailing single handed with a jib downhaul it is no problem. Practice on lighter days though. What you practice under fair conditions becomes second nature when things get a little more interesting.

I have considered having a storm headsail made to try and get more out of the upwind side of things under higher winds. Has anyone done this?

Bob B.
Craig

Re: Lee Helm Happens

Post by Craig »

Bob,
Given what you say I may well have been having lee helm, for I did feel that I was being driven off the wind. However, having said that the other explanations are reasonable as well. The problem admittedly, is that in trying to manage the boat in this heavier air, my first, I was not able to take it all in, ie. exactly what was occurring. So I am left with a faulty recall of the situation. Nonetheless, all the input has been extremely valuable and what I have learned is too avoid pinching and loosing control, subsequently stalling the rudder and being pushed downwind; if feeling overpowered (and possibly experiencing lee helm) on a beat then lower the headsail and on a downwind course lower the main; in finding the 'groove' let the hand to tiller feeling guide the process and don't overreact with the tiller; heeling for the most part is a good thing and she isn't likely to go all the way over, so relax and enjoy; and consider new sails (for mine appear to be original ie. about twenty years old and surely a little tired).
Does it get any better than this? This is truly a great message board. Again, thanks to all.
Craig
Bob B wrote: Craig,
This has been a most interesting discussion of sail trim and balance.

On my typhoon, I have experienced lee helm several times. It was due to an over powered headsail and a close reach. I often sail my ty in winds described and it is no problem to sail it with a reefed main and no headsail. I usually sail up wind with just the main, leaving the jib tied on deck as described by Mike Wakefield. Then, as I turn downwind, drop the main and then raise the jib. The headsail pulls the boat downwind, keeping the bow up and reducing the tendency for the boat to yaw. Also, there is no worry of a gybe. With a short crew, it is no problem on the typhoon. Even while sailing single handed with a jib downhaul it is no problem. Practice on lighter days though. What you practice under fair conditions becomes second nature when things get a little more interesting.

I have considered having a storm headsail made to try and get more out of the upwind side of things under higher winds. Has anyone done this?

Bob B.


cnspsych@aol.com
Neil Gordon

Re: sailing technique question

Post by Neil Gordon »

>>I'm not sure why a double reef may have made it worse. Does this move the center of effort further forward, increasing the lee helm?<<

Exactly.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Capr DOry 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com
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