Biting the Bullet

[Duncan]

Thanks for the suggestions, everybody.

If anybody else wants to chime in, your experience is also welcome.

--Joe

Hi Joe

My cost is substantially less, but I don't think that translates into useful advice. (Can you imagine saying "Oh, I store my boat inland in Canada, it's less expensive there" )

I can suggest that a DIY approach to maintaining/storing the boat can be very good in terms of gaining knowledge and keeping an eye on things.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here before, but I like "The Hinckley Guide to Yacht Care". It's much more down-to-earth than the title or the cover might suggest, and chock-full of useful tips, checklists and sensible advice.

I applaud your desire to do it right. I imagine you will find it very rewarding to do the work, and then know it was done right (and saved you lots of money as well).

[Dean Abramson]

Most folks also then remove the raw water impeller. I tended to leave it in, then check it for wear/cracks in the spring.

What nut wrote that?

Seriously, I have just changed my mind on this, as I have read that the impeller blades can "take a set" if left in one position all winter. From now on, I will also remove mine. I never did notice one taking a set, but I can see where that could happen, particularly at the point where the pump has the hump. You will see this, Joe. (The hump is what makes it work; ask your mechanic; I cannot explain it that well.)

Dean

[Sea Hunt]

Hello Joe:

The October 2010 issue of SAIL magazine has a good (albeit brief) article on "winterizing". It covers some but not all of your questions.

There is also an article on "decommissioning" in warmer climes.

If you do not subscribe I believe you can buy individual copies at a local bookstore.

[Kilgore]

Our 2 main local marinas were picked up by chains and both raised prices, AFAIK. Haulout/storage/launch are running me $1100. They have to do any bottom painting as well.
I pay ~$1500/season for a slip at the town-owned marina. The privates here start at twice that. I have rights to drop a mooring if I want, I'd just need my own dink to get to it (and a place to put it). The local clubs with launch service run from $650-3000+/yr.

[Joe Myerson]

I should clarify that my former yard's total charges of about $4K were for haul-out, storage and spring commissioning. Still more than most of you are paying.

And my annual resident mooring fee of $75 does not include my excise tax, which is another $23. It also does not include the purchase of the mushroom anchor and tackle (about $500, once) and the maintenance fee of about $140. And, every three years, the town requires that my mooring contractor "inspect" the mooring, which is another couple of hundred bucks (part of the "keep locals employed" program, I suspect).

Still, if I can do some of this work myself, I'm bound to save bucks -- and gain confidence that I really can fix things during emergencies.

Thanks again,

--Joe

[Maine Sail]

--Power-washing: Is this something I can do myself, renting a power-washer for a day?

Yes of course you can, but, it is very dependent upon your boat yard and where you plan to wash it down. If you washed it in your yard at home, and the boat was over grass, no grass would grow there for many, many years due to copper content.

Our boat yard has ONE spot for washing boats and a 300k catch basin with filters etc. to catch and filter the run off. Don't worry within a few years EVERY boat yard will have these. That location is at the travel lift. If you try to wash your own bottom on the hard anywhere other than at the catch basin the owner will likely boot you from the yard for violating EPA rules, and now yard policy, which was driven by the EPA. In short the EPA has made it impossible for any DIY to wash their bottom at our yard here in Maine. The yard has a 300k investment to recoup and they rightfully will not allow a DIY to bring in their own pressure washer.

--Winter cover: I'm sure I can find somebody to shrinkwrap the boat, but don't know if they'll be any cheaper than the yard. I don't have much faith in tarps, but cannot afford a Fairclough cover this year -- even though I spoke with them, and they're eager to offer deals.

A Fairclough will save money over the long haul but NOT the short haul. You can easily erect a frame and used a heavy duty green tarp, Hamilton's has them, provided you don't have an Awlgrip or painted finish, for well under $100.00.

--Engine winterizing/maintenance: Even though the IGM is about as simple an engine as there is, I'm kind of a mechanical klutz. Can I attempt this myself, or should I contract it out. Oh, the water pump needs replacement. That looks like an easy job, but should I attempt that, or lump both jobs together and hire somebody?

This is a DIY job but you really need to remove the t-stat in order to properly flush the cooling jackets on the RWC 1GM. I always install a brand new t-stat on a RWC engine when I do this as they sit in salt water all season and not pampered in rust inhibiting antifreeze..

Never connect a pressurized hose to a raw water intake and ALWAYS use an in/out bucket. Garden hose feeds the bucket and a hose from the raw water pump sucks out of the bucket.

Change the oil, run fresh water through the engine then run non-toxic -60F or -100F antifreeze through it. DO NOT use the pink kind for the fresh water systems as it contains NO rust inhibitors when compared to the -60F or -100F stuff intended for engines. Also keep in mind that this stuff is NOT intended to be dilute in ANY FORM OR FASHION. For this reason alon you will want to suck 3-5 gallons through to make sure your burst points are low enough.

Remove the impeller after sucking in the antifreeze. Any of the propylene glycols (PG) can shorten the life of the impeller rubber whether it is pink, purple or deep green prop glycol. Remember this glycol is still in the alcohol family and can shorten the performance life of rubber. Usually the engine rated stuff (-60 & -100) have better corrosion packages in them and it is especially important to use them in a RWC engine to prevent slab rust from forming.


Basically none of the PG products should be diluted. The -50, -60 & -100 are all general guides for undiluted burst points NOT set in stone and standardized tested freeze or burst points.

-50 for example contains only about 30% by volume, propylene glycol. Reducing that concentration, through dilution, the water already in the raw water loop, to just 12.5 percent PG by volume, raises the BURST POINT to about 20 F which is a far cry for -50 @ 30% PG by volume. Run enough through it is CHEAP insurance!!!

It is a good idea to drain the raw water side first or just use more antifreeze so you know it is not diluted. My raw water side can hold nearly two gallons of raw water between the strainer, hoses, HX, water-lift muffler and my refrigeration heat exchanger. This could mean major dilution, and in Maine, that is NOT a good idea.. This is why I drain it first before sucking in the -100 PG. I only use the -100F PG for my engine.

If you read the label on -60 for example it says copper pipes may burst at -60F but that plastic is only protected to -26F and this is UNDILUTED.

--Draining systems and adding antifreeze: These jobs seem simple enough, but I'd hate to mess up. I have a very basic freshwater system and a head that seems to have a clogged vent. Any suggestions?

Please do yourself a favor and by-pass the water heater. Also, DO NOT add pink PG directly to the water tanks. It is unnecessary and very difficult to bleed through via dilution in the spring. Simply drain the tanks then suck antifreeze ONLY through the pipes, fixtures and H2) pump/pumps.

Here's a primer on fresh water system winterizing:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/wate ... interizing

--Battery storage/maintenance: I have two lead/acid batteries. They're heavy, but I could probably charge them and store them in a heated basement. (There's a thread on this subject, I know.)

No need to remove them from the vessel. Cold batteries have a significantly SLOWER self discharge rate than warm batteries. A fully charged battery WILL NOT freeze where you are. Charge in the fall to 100% then DISCONNECT them and leave them on-board. When you visit the boat in the winter apply the charge for an hour or so every now and then and they will be more than fine come spring. Only a dead battery will freeze.

--Electrical problems: During the trip to and from Bristol, RI, I discovered that my VHF antenna circuit has a break someplace, and some of my lights don't seem to work properly (no steaming light or deck light).

Get: Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook Second Edition by Charlie Wing

I find it to be the best book for a beginner and it follows ABYC standards, which is what insurance companies are looking for. Nigel's book is also great but is often over the heads of most 12/24V DC neophytes. Your problems are all most likely bad connections which are easy to fix.

Here's how to re-terminate a VHF cable: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/vhf_cable

--Bilge: The yard always puts some of that RV antifreeze in the bottom of the bilge to handle any potential freezing.

Ideally I prefer a garboard drain on a deep full keel boat. If you are concerned about FW getting into the keel sump then PG won't actually do much as DILUTION significantly increases the burst point. I have seen LOTS of boats with bilges frozen solid with pink stuff in there. I have also seen full keel boats split the keel from freezing.

--Have I forgotten anything important?

--Joe

Drain the fuel tank and burn the oil in your home furnace or a friends. Remove the cushions, sails, cotton sheets etc. etc and TRY to keep your bilge as dry as possible. This will help prevent interior condensation which can ruin wood work. I have been on boats that were making SNOW inside them in their own little eco system due to a wet bilge.

[Carl Thunberg]

That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous critters in the fuel by leaving a tank full, or to take arms agains a sea of critters and thereby end them by draining it.

But hark, what light in yon window breaks, when the air gets warm and condensation doth fall on thine empty tank walls?

Okay, enough of Shakespeare. But seriously, I'd like to hear the justification for draining the tank. I've always left the diesel tank full to the top after adding biocide, so there's no air space for condensation to occur. By emptying the tank, aren't you susceptible to condensation on the tank walls? I can see justification for both sides of this one. We'd all agree that it's a bad practice to leave a tank half-full.

[Maine Sail]

That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous critters in the fuel by leaving a tank full, or to take arms agains a sea of critters and thereby end them by draining it.

But hark, what light in yon window breaks, when the air gets warm and condensation doth fall on thine empty tank walls?

Okay, enough of Shakespeare. But seriously, I'd like to hear the justification for draining the tank. I've always left the diesel tank full to the top after adding biocide, so there's no air space for condensation to occur. By emptying the tank, aren't you susceptible to condensation on the tank walls? I can see justification for both sides of this one. We'd all agree that it's a bad practice to leave a tank half-full.

An empty tank won't condensate because it does not have anything in it! It also lacks any real thermal mass to hold a temp differential, especially with an aluminum tank. Stick and empty plastic, metal or aluminum gas tank in a cold garage, that also has temps swings, with the vent open, and try it. It can sit there for many, many years through massive temps swings and never see a drop of moisture. This is analogous to an empty tank in a boat.

I personally detest letting diesel sit in a tank to foul the walls, absorb moisture and grow bugs. Biocides do not work well in my experience and I have cleaned and cut into many a tank that used Biocides.. Myself and the PO use biocides and Soltron/Startron religiously yet the tank was still NASTY when I cut it open.
My tank was always, well for at least 23 years never left full or empty. Despite this, at 31 years old it had ZERO water in it. I still have the jar in the garage of the last bit of fuel that was in the tank. Even after months of sitting there is no separation of fuel and water meaning no water issues in my tank in 31 years. This pick up was also about 2" off the absolute bottom.

The PO of 23 years, an electrical & chemical engineer, was not a believer in what he called "the condensation myth" so left the fuel level where ever it was at the end of the season. Most water in tanks, IMHO, comes from a leaking o-ring on a deck fill, not through condensation.


Diesel by nature also will also "saturate" with moisture from the air. Condensation can be a causal symptom of saturation in that the fuel in the tank may be already "wet" with suspended water vapor. If you want to totally prevent condensation just empty the tank. I run it down toward the end of the summer and usually only have about 5 gallons left. I bring my 6 gallon jerry can and drain the remaining fule with the fuel pump. Takes about 20 minutes.

Fuel sitting in contact with the atmosphere, even through a small vent line is and can be enough to allow water vapor saturation of the fuel. Often by the time you buy the fuel it can already at it's water saturation point depending upon the travels it took to get there.

If empty tanks condensated we would not need to dig wells. Third world nations in the desert would have plenty of water just by building large empty tanks and waiting for them to mysteriously fill from the temp swings from night to day.

[Carl Thunberg]

Thanks for the explanation. Now that you put it in terms of thermal mass, it all makes sense

[Joe Myerson]

MainSail,

Thanks again for your detailed instructions.

As for flushing the engine and putting in antifreeze: The 1GM is so basic that it is raw-water cooled (which can actually be a small problem south of Cape Cod, where the water this summer reached 86 degrees -- the same temperature as the hearty crew of s/v Isabelle encountered when crossing the Gulf Stream).

And your point about power washing is well taken. I'm storing the boat in a storage yard a few miles from the water. There's no grass, just dirt and gravel. But I wouldn't want to send copper into the soil, and hence into the water table, if I could avoid it.

I'll look into Hamilton's green tarps -- since I've had only BAD experiences with those damn blue ones and since, even though Fairclough was offering me a great price, I simply can't afford it this year.

Thanks again.

--Joe

[John Vigor]

If empty tanks condensated we would not need to dig wells. Third world nations in the desert would have plenty of water just by building large empty tanks and waiting for them to mysteriously fill from the temp swings from night to day.

I was under the impression that moisture in the air will condense if you cool it below its dew point. Isn't that what clouds are all about?

You can see this principle in action for yourself in another way. Just blow your warm, moist breath into a plastic bag and put it in the fridge. Watch the moisture condense into droplets and run down the sides of the bag.

In the same way, surely, moist air in a fuel tank will condense inside the tank when the temperature drops. And the more air space there is in the tank, the more moisture there will be to condense. Or am I missing something?

As for not needing to dig wells, one trick used by hikers in desert country to get drinking water is to create a small "tank" by digging a hole in the sand, throwing in any kind of green vegetation, and covering the hole with a sheet of transparent plastic. In this primitive solar still, water soon condenses on the underside of the plastic and drips down into a strategically placed cup.

Nature seems to have no trouble wringing water out of moist air, and the air around most fuel tanks on boats is usually plenty moist.

Cheers,

John V.

[Maine Sail]

John,

Those plants are where the moisture is coming from. Put saran wrap over an empty dry pot and you'll get no condensation. Interestingly enough I have two gas cans in my barn and one old aluminum 30 gallon marine fuel tank. The vent & fill snouts / caps have been open on the empty gas cans for well over a year and the fuel tank has the fill drain and return lines all open to the atmosphere. My barn is exposed to the same elements and temp swings as a stored boat. Yesterday it was about 74 during the day and at night it went down to 41. None of these empty tanks, as of about 1/2 hour ago anyway, had ANY moisture or water droplets in them, none, even after a full year or more. I also live on the ocean so it is not as if I am in a "dry" arid environment. Blowing your MOIST breath into a bag IS the moisture, you just put it there, empty tanks don't have it in those concentrations and what moisture is in the air is clearly not enough to cause any visible or physical water droplets to form in the tanks. If it was I'd have some half full tanks of fresh water by now...

[Carl Thunberg]

Odd that I'm now explaining the opposite viewpoint from the one I started out with. Consider thermal mass as analagous to momentum. Something that has a great deal of thermal mass is resistant to temperature change. An empty tank has very little thermal mass, so it responds to temperature change almost instantaneously (in relative terms). Since the tank and the air are at the same temperature, no condensation can occur. At the other extreme is the ocean. In our parts, the ocean is very COLD. Warm humid air over the ocean is what creates our persistent fog.

So the real question is, is a tank that is 3/4 full susceptible to condensation? I hate to say this, but I think the answer is still "no". Since there's no refrigerant involved, the thermal gradient between the tank and the air is still not very great. There may be trace amounts of condensation during rapid temperature changes, but probably not very much.

This sounds like a job for Myth Busters!

[Oswego John]

Consider thermal mass as analagous to momentum. Something that has a great deal of thermal mass is resistant to temperature change. (in relative terms).

Carl et al:

This phenomenon is the reason why the areas on the lee side of large masses of water, (i.e. Oswego, NY) receive the hellatious(sp?) lake effect snow storms.

The temperature drops but the lake, a huge heat sink, remains warm well into the winter months. This creates conditions for the Perfect (Snow) Storm.

The geese are on the wing. The leaves are turning.
O J

[Sea Hunt]

I have no knowledge of thermal mass, thermal gradients, heat exchange, etc. Over the past few years I have acquired great respect for Carl T., OJ, John V., Main Sail and others. Their knowledge, skills and education are far, far above mine.

That said, my Dad and my Grandad always taught me -"keep your gas tank full, your batteries fully charged and your guns or ammo magazines fully loaded at all times".

I have always followed these rules and so far, so good.

As for gas tanks, etc., the little I know (and I know very little) the space in a gas can that is "empty" (not filled with gas) is actually not "empty". It is filled with air. Air naturally has moisture in it - the percentage of moisture depends upon many factors. This moisture, however much there is, is bad for fuel - gas or diesel. By keeping tanks full, or near full, as much as reasonably possible, it seems to me you reduce (if not completely eliminate) the possibility of the moisture in the air that is "trapped" in the gas can from converting from water vapor to liquid and mixing with the gasoline (or diesel).

As always, I defer to the true experts on this board.