UGLY WEATHER IN MIAMI

[Oswego John]

Robert,

I think that I am missing out on several things. Maybe you could clarify them for me.

Is your outboard engine still hanging on Tadpole's transom? If I remember correctly, when I first saw a picture of Tadpole, I think that I commented that she was riding low in the stern.

With that angle in mind, wouldn't any accumulation of rain in the cockpit run astern and away from the cockpit scuppers. I would think that any rain would eventually seek its way to the bilge rather than go out the self bailing scuppers.

This would create a self perpetuating cycle. The more rain that had amassed in the stern, the heavier the stern would become. The more that the weight increased, the greater would be the hull angle toward the stern.

I think that some counterweight in the bow is called for. And then, again, maybe you had already balanced the boat.

I'll give you my thoughts about your scupper hoses in my next post.

Good luck,
O J

[Dean Abramson]

Robert, these are not dumb questions. Not asking them would qualify as dumb.

Idea: send me a picture of this rudder tube situation. The closer up the better. I will post the photo(s). (This is zero big deal for me.) Then all of us "consultants" can see more clearly what the deal is. Then maybe we can suggest a fix.

Besides fixing that, I still think strongly that you have to get those loops out of the equation. I think someone did that to keep their feet dry when heeled. (Just fixing this place around the rudder will only be like putting in the stopper and making the bathtub fill more.) I think the hoses cannot drain the cockpit until the boat, while level, is low enough in the water that the top of your loops is the same as, or below, the level of the sea. I don't think this situation can sink the boat (after you fix the rudder tube), but it will mean that you will always have water in the cockpit after a rain. And that ain't good for your cockpit. Right now, your rudder tube seems to be your go-to drain, but the water does not go where you want it to.

Another possibility is that the weight of the motor has the boat down in the stern to the point that this rudder tube gap is actually lower than your cockpit drain openings. If this is the case, then even when all is fixed, you might still have a little water in the aft part of the cockpit after a rain.

I don't know Tys, but I think I am envisioning this properly. If my theories don't hold water, as it were, please, someone, shoot me down, so Robert won't waste his time.

I suspect that you have diagnosed the problem, though.

Dean

[Dean Abramson]

I think the hoses cannot drain the cockpit until the boat, while level, is low enough in the water that the top of your loops is the same as, or below, the level of the sea.
Dean

I have decided that that is not accurate. It won't "drain" then: it is that then all three levels are equalized. Cockpit/hose-loops/sea. All the same.

[Dean Abramson]

Robert,

Have we ever determined whether the loops in the drain hoses go up higher than the level of the cockpit sole? They could do that (say, in a cockpit locker, or under the bridedeck). If they do not, then my theory is probably bogus.

But you still have to fix that rudder tube situation in any event. IMHO.

Dean

[Rollergirl]

The outside, less so.
My Ty's been gone for a while now, but I think most of us Ty owners have dealt with this design "feature".
The first thing that you may need to know, Robert, is that the tube your rudder post sits in goes out the bottom of the boat underwater. Any water going into that tube from the top goes into the sea.
A less wonderful feature of this fact is that when the boat is overloaded (strive for skinny friends) water can flood back onto the cockpit sole. This flooding can also occur when you use a large amount of outboard power. Motor beyond the necessary energy level required for hull speed and the boat will dig in. Sooner or later the stern is so far under the rudder tube floods the boat.
But you were on a mooring.
OJ is right; your outboard has trimmed the boat aft, and that builds the water up around your rudder tube.
Which, unfortunately, is not at this point sealed against exterior leakage. The water seeps in between the teak ring, the deck and the rudder tube into the bilge.
Two things:
recalk the joint (remove ring, etc.,) as previously advised
and check the cockpit area around the tube for water intrusion in the coring. It's very common.
There are many posts about this in the archives.
Finely, there was initally a plastic t-bushing spacer used at the top of the tube only to be a bearing and water seal. It was a truck seat bushing. If you check the archives on this one. please be aware I am out of stock and will never have them again.

None of this is insumountable; learning fiberglass work is actually rewarding.

Good luck

Bill Bloxham

my ensign daysailor is for sale

[Sea Hunt]

Wow. Thanks Great information and suggestions.

I'll try to respond to questions, etc. in no particular order.

The O/B is on the transom with the bracket. It does cause Tadpole to sit slightly down in her stern. I am planning to put on board in the forward V berth area a 14 lb Danforth, 20 ft of 1/4" chain, etc. Hopefully this will balance her out a little.

OJ, I agree with your analysis about a "self perpetuating cycle". I am not sure how to solve this. I cannot be the only Ty Weekender that sits a little low in her stern. What do other do to solve this issue

Wingreen, from what I recall, there do not appear to be any gaps or water ingress areas in the tiller, rudder shaft area, except for the gap created by the rudder shaft fitting inside the rudder post. If I understand you correctly, I should NOT use 5200 in this area because it will inhibit if not completely stop freedom of movement. If I correct in my guess, the water is flowing into the bilge through the gap created by the rudder shaft fitting inside the rudder post.

Dean, the scupper hoses do NOT go up higher than the cockpit floor level. I do agree that the loops in these hoses appears to be a large part of the problem. I am concerned about removing them and reconfiguring them because (1) I am concerned about flooding the boat (assuming the seacocks fail when closed) (I do have wooden plugs to insert but .........); and (2) I do not have a lot of confidence in my ability to reinstall the hoses correctly. However, not having a lot of options, I intend to move forward and take it one step at a time. Job One is keeping water from filling the bilge and cockpit.

Unfortunately, I do not have pictures to send you Dean. The pixs I took when I first looked at Tadpole were taken on a cheap $8 throwaway camera with film. All I have are prints and negatives. Although I know you know what prints and negatives are, there are a lot of people who never heard of this medium. Kind of like the slide rule my Dad gave me 43 year ago.

I will keep the board posted on developments. I hope to board Tadpole either tomorrow or Sunday.

[Oswego John]

Thanks Bill B, for explaining about the tube (shaft) for the rudder post. You have a knack for saying in a few sentences what I could compress into seven or eight paragraphs. Right on, brother.

FWIW, we used to make a "temporary" upper shaft packing by poking oakum around the rudder post, letting some of it drape over the top of the shaft and then taping it to the outside of the shaft. You can also pack a ring of Dux-Seal around the post at the top of the shaft. This is electricians putty. You can buy a small brick of it for a couple of bucks at Lowes, Home Depot or any electrical supply house. It will outlast the life of the boat. BTW, Dux-Seal is good for waterproofing holes in your masts for electrical wiring. It is easily removed at the end of the season.

Robert, some people are squeamish about storing remote fuel cans foreward in the cabin. A good, cheap, heavy substitute for trim ballast is plastic containers or bladders of plain water, salt or sweet. It is easy to get rid of and easy to obtain.

I bet a dollar to a doughnut that after you get rid of those loopy loops in your hoses and balance your hull, your bilge water problem will be a memory.

I hope so,
O J

[Al Levesque]

If I envision the drain hose loops accurately they would trap air and prevent water passage. If this is true, the low sill in the Typhoon would spill the water into the bilge. Get rid of the loops and keep the hose slope down from the cockpit.

[Carl Thunberg]

Every sink drain has a trap and the water still goes down. I'm not sure I go along with the air lock argument. We're not talking about a siphon here. This is gravity drainage. Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating for or against loops, because I just don't have any expertise in this area.

[Gary H]

For what it is worth, my Ty sits low in the stern and the bilge collects no water. I have flooded the cockpit by having too many people on board with the sea cocks open and the bilge still stayed dry, so I don't think balance alone is the problem.

[Oswego John]

Robert,

In regard to Gary's comment, the next time you see water in your bilge, maybe you should taste it to see if it's salty or sweet.

I still think that you should be in your boat during the next rainstorm and observe first hand just what is going on.

I would zero in on the drain hoses for cracks or loose connections.

FYI, I leave my 5 HP engine hanging on my Ty and it, too, is somewhat low in the stern.

O J

[Gary H]

While the loops do not present an air lock they could make it easier for debris to get stuck in them and block drainage. I find the hoses to get blocked with very small amounts of debris even without the loops.

[Al Levesque]

I am assuming that the loop starts at the drain in the cockpit, goes down to the bottom of the space, then rises up to the underside of the cockpit floor, and then goes down to the thru-hull. When the boat is on land the hose is filled with air. When the boat is launched the lower portion of the hose, connected to the thru-hull, fills with water up to the level of the water line. The top part of the loop has air in it. When it rains the drainage from the cockpit goes down the drain on its way out. As the drainage fills the hose, air is trapped in the top of the loop. It can't get out of the top of the loop and thereby blocks the flow of the drainage.

The problem is common in heating systems and is relieved by a special bleed valve at the top of the loop. Once the air escapes and water reaches the bleed valve flow is resumed while the water closes the bleed valve.

Hope I have explained it right!

[Sea Hunt]

Zeida:

I just realized I think I "hijacked" this thread. I apologize.

That said, I was not able to board Tadpole today. Tomorrow I am "racing" and Sunday I hope to be 120 fsw below the water in the beautiful Florida Keys.

On Monday, my first project will be to try to eliminate the 360 degree loops. I am not sure if the current hoses are flexible enough to do this or if I have to buy a more flexible hose.

Does anyone happen to know the correct hose diameter If so, I can buy a piece and bring it with me to the sailing club on Monday.

Is there a particular type of hose that is recommended for this application

This board has a lot of very bright folks, many with advanced engineering degrees (mechanical, electrical, hydrostatic, structural, etc.) as well as many folks with many, many years of knowledge obtained from experience working with sailboats. I lack both.

However, I tend to think Al Levesque has it correct. Based on diving principles (the only thing I really know anything about), it seems to me there can easily be an "air lock" created in the upper portion of the loop of the hoses that would prevent efficient water flow down and out the 360 degree loops. To overcome this "air lock" would require a lot of water pressure above the "air lock" to "push" the air down and out. The water in the hoses below the "air lock" is pushing UP also and this must be overcome as well. The cockpit fills with rain water that cannot escape through the intended route (the scuppers). Because the water level only rises 1"-2" there is not enough pressure directly over the scupper and hose on each side to push the air out. The rain water finds another route down. I still need to find that other route that goes from the cockpit down to the bilge.

I will try to reconfigure or buy hoses that allow for a nearly straight line from the scuppers to the seacocks. If this proves impossible, I may try to run the starboard scupper hose over to the port seacock and the port scupper hose to the starboard seacock. The initial problem I see with this is that it will prevent/impede installation of a battery because the hoses will travel over the area reserved for the battery installation. Not having any electrical systems on board at this time, I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Thanks for everyone's continuing support, assistance and encouragement. It is a steep learning curve but so far very enjoyable and a lot of interesting fun to do it with the folks on this board. Thanks

[Dean Abramson]

I think Al has gotten it right.

I was hung up on the relationship of the height of the loop to the cockpit sole. But the relationship of the top of the loops to the waterline must be the factor in this case.

I have to admit that the more I try to figure this out, the more I think I may be confusing myself! But in my gut, I feel those loops have to go.

First, with the cockpit drain seacocks closed, flood the cockpit. Then crawl below and investigate where the leaks are. Then open the seacocks and see how much drains.

Robert, the seacocks absolutely should keep out he sea while you do this job; if not, then we have other issues. You may need something to warm/soften the hoses in order to get them off, even after you loosen the hose clamps. I use a hair dryer. So you might want to make a trip to a dock for this job, if possible. Or, if you have a stove on board, soak a rag in hot water, then wrap it on the hose at the seacock for a minute before trying to rassle it off. If your hose clamps (hopefully two per seacock) don't look great, this is the time to replace them.

Close the seacocks. Then, I would first disconnect each hose at the cockpit first. Grab the cockpit end and shove it down in the bilge to a point lower than the seacock; the water in the hose will run out, but when the flow stops, you will see that your seacock is working.

Note the condition of the hoses at the seacocks and at the cockpit drain fittings. Splits in the hoses at the cockpit may be the reason you are taking on the rain water (you HAVE tasted it, right?). Or maybe it is poorly bedded drain fittings; the cockpit-flooding drill should clue you in.

What with the loops, you should have plenty of hose, so if it is in good shape, just cut it to the right lengths. Cutting each end some will give you new, clean ends to work with. Put it all back together. I use a little vaseline to help get stiff hoses to slide on. Use double hose clamps, particularly at the seacock ends. (It is possible that the hose has "taken a set" from the loops, and won't straighten out well without buckling, but I think it will.)

Other Ty Owners: do your hoses cross, or as I seem to remember, go to the same-side seacocks? (Since you maybe have extra hose enough to do the cross thing, maybe you should experiment with that first.)

You will need a sharp utility knife, a wire snip to cut the hose reinforcement wire, perhaps PB Blaster to deal with old hose clamps, the hair dryer, vaseline, and a regular screwdriver. That, and the body and agility of a nineteen year old fashion model. Plus the patience of Job and a box of BandAids. Piece o'cake.

Dean