Our Yachts are getting older...check your hoses.........

[John Vigor]

There are at least two schools of thought in regard to bilge pumps and their actuators. Some people believe in utter simplicity, while others use a variety of gadgets and gizmos for controlling their pump(s). The former group feels that the less complicated a circuit is, the less things that could go wrong.
O J

OJ, there is a third school of thought on the subject, though I may be its only adherent in the United States these days. Like many amateur sailors in other parts of the world, I have never owned a boat with an electric bilge pump. I still don't. I rely entirely on a hand pump, accessible to the helm, and a couple of buckets in the cockpit locker for emergencies.

The nearest I ever came to an electric bilge pump was when I bought my CD25D. The previous owner had mounted a 12-volt pump on a wooden board. The wires to the pump terminated in alligator clips that fit a battery terminal. It could be used to wash down the deck or pump the bilge at any time. I sold it with the boat, but I'm thinking of making up one of my own for emergencies.
It's a pretty good idea.

I have always been careful to maintain a dry bilge as a guard against osmosis, so my hand pump rarely gets used. I have raced and cruised across oceans on various small sailboats, none of which had electric bilge pumps. The reasoning was that they simply couldn't cope in a real emergency.

If you do the math, you'll find that a small electric pump won't help much in the case of a large hole in the hull. The only thing you can do about that is to get a collision mat around the outside of the hull, or a spare jib, or stuff a cushion or mattress into the hole from the inside, if you're lucky enough to be able to get to the hull itself from the inside. Otherwise, you'll need a large ax to chop away the liner and any furniture in the way.

I always close the seacocks when I leave the boat, except for the cockpit seacocks, and I try to inspect those rubber hoses pretty regularly.

OJ, you talk about utter simplicity in regard to bilge pumps. You can't get more utter than me. Am I alone in this regard, or are there other CD owners who shun the complications of electric pumps and the misrepresentations of their manufacturers?

John V.

[Gary M]

A friend of mine just had the hose clamp on his heat exchanger fail. Big mess.

Check out ABBA hose clamps.

Gary

http://www.western-marine.com/page118.htm

[Oswego John]

There are at least two schools of thought in regard to bilge pumps and their actuators. Some people believe in utter simplicity, while others use a variety of gadgets and gizmos for controlling their pump(s). The former group feels that the less complicated a circuit is, the less things that could go wrong.
O J

OJ, there is a third school of thought on the subject, though I may be its only adherent in the United States these days.


["O J"] Hey, you know what? We're both in the same boat. (Is that pun worthy enough?) I use a boom tent on my Ty W/E. About a week or so ago, I mentioned that my bilge was Saharan dry. I believe that a pump is down there somewhere. Some day, if I find it, I'll attach the alligator clips and test it.

OJ, you talk about utter simplicity in regard to bilge pumps. You can't get more utter than me. Am I alone in this regard, or are there other CD owners who shun the complications of electric pumps and the misrepresentations of their manufacturers?

[O J] I, too, employ the latest space age water handling equipment. Namely, a bucket and a huge sponge. Simply utterly failsafe. Sometimes, the bucket sees double duty.

Let me explain a few things as I hold two fingers of each hand in quotation marks above my head and say " Let me make myself perfectly clear". If you're not fifty years old or more, forget it, you won't understand that.

If a person makes(read "ekes out") a living working on and repairing boats, and a cash customer asks him to install a bilge pump system, the eker usually doesn't tell the ekee that he really doesn't need a pump. "All you need is an utterly simple pail, a sponge and an axe" Hmmmm. Not too business savvy.

There's more. As I'm sure that you realize, there is a huge difference between a true sailor and a mere boatowner. Most of the clowns swinging on a mooring are Shudder, Gasp ,Severe Knee Jerk, - *Stink Pot owners* [We take no prisoners]

They are weekend warriors that sit at a conference table all week and use the yacht club once in a while on weekends to entertain business clients.. Most weekends, they're at the country club playing golf. It has been indelibly ingrained in that thing that supports their Greek sailor hat or the captain's cap, the one with the six inch visor that's smothered with scrambled eggs. (If you younger readers don't know, don't even attempt to fathom that one out) that it is imperative for them to have trained personnel to keep their boats afloat, keep them above water, and have someone thats reliable to maintain a good supply of ice cubes and olives.

John, I read you loud and clear. I fully understand what you mean concerning a small pump when out in the middle of the Atlantic. Some of these bozos never get off the mooring once, all summer long.

Are you getting an inkling of why a sponge and pail won't cut it with these guys. First off, it doesn't give them much in bragging rights. Secondly, it's terrible for tax writeoffs. Their CPA would be ROFLHAO.

Sock it to 'em, they love it
Have a good one.
O J

[Cathy Monaghan]

Hi John,

.....OJ, there is a third school of thought on the subject, though I may be its only adherent in the United States these days. Like many amateur sailors in other parts of the world, I have never owned a boat with an electric bilge pump. I still don't. I rely entirely on a hand pump, accessible to the helm, and a couple of buckets in the cockpit locker for emergencies.....

......OJ, you talk about utter simplicity in regard to bilge pumps. You can't get more utter than me. Am I alone in this regard, or are there other CD owners who shun the complications of electric pumps and the misrepresentations of their manufacturers?
......

You're not alone. We don't have an electronic bilge pump aboard Realization and don't intend to ever add one. If there's any water in the bilge we know we need to find out where it's coming from and take appropriate action. In addition to the Whale pump installed by Cape Dory, we also have a high output Edson manual emergency pump, and of course the buckets. The seacocks are ALWAYS closed when nobody's aboard. Some think we're crazy and foolish for not having an electric bilge pump but we have our reasons.

-Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

[John Vigor]

Well thank you OJ and Cathy. I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in shunning electronic bilge pumps. I was beginning to feel very lonely, quite eccentric, in fact. I can't think of a single one of my dock neighbors who doesn't have an automatic bilge pump. I am definitely the odd man out.

But, as you so rightly say, Cathy, we have our reasons. Our policy seems to be to do all we can to pre-empt trouble, not to assume the inevitablity that the boat's going to flood with seawater sometime, and then have a piddling little pump try to spit it out.

On a faintly related tack, I have often wondered how much energy is contained in a reasonably well-maintained Group 24 12-volt battery. How many gallons of water could it pump out if the water had to be lifted from the bilge (say 5 feet) to the through-hull exit, before it became too exhausted to pump any more? It would be interesting to know, even roughly. I suppose you could make a guess, using the amperage draw of the pump, the alleged number of amp-hours available in the battery, and the alleged capacity of the pump to move water, but I fear the truth would differ vastly from the theoretical numbers.

But it would be helpful to know, for example, that one fully-charged Group 24 battery could get rid of 500 gallons, or whatever. Or that it could keep up with a leak of 50 gallons an hour for 24 hours, or whatever.

I sometimes wonder why boatbuilders don't make arrangements for high-capacity pumps to be hooked up to the engine when necessary. That's the way to move large quantities of water really quickly.

Cheers,

John V.

[marka]

Just to pile on...

When we bought Linda Jean (ie, before we know anything useful), I bought an electric bilge pump with the intention of installing it.

Long story short, we sold it on ebay for a little less than we paid and yesterday I removed the piece of crud keeping the discharge check valve open on the whale (which precluded generating any suction).

In general, I minimize all technology to the extent it makes sense. Keeping these babies up is a labor of love and I hold little love for systems maintenance

[Len]

Reading this board since its inception, I have come away with the following impressions- 1. CD owners (at least most if not all of those who contribute to the board) are in favor of simple sailboat systems. They eschew electric and electronic complications (e.g., bilge pumps,computerized what nots, etc.) They advocate the KISS principle. 2. They favor relaxation -or more time sailing-over aesthetics. (e.g. they prefer to let teak weather or other coatings -cetol,oil- as opposed to the regimen of varnishing.)

Prior to owning MINKE I owned a J 29 for 15 years. It was a great daysailor- simple quick and easy to maintain. It had an electric depth, log, vhf ,running light and one car batterys. Its navigation tools consisted of a compass , binoculars and charts-. You climbed aboard and went sailing. If you wanted company for a multiday sail you had to find friends who cared naught about showering, hot food, privacy or standing upright when trapped below. I now own a Robinhood 36- it has multiple complex systems- chartploter/radar overlays, watermaker, electric windlass, fresh or salt water anchor /people wash down. etc.

Now many of you look forward to retirement and surly sailing will be a good part of your post retirement enjoyment. With lots of time on MY hands I find it enjoyable to untangle the problems associated with complex sailboat systems. It gives me a great deal of satisfaction when I can repair/install some new to me devise/system.After all if you had all the time on board you wanted its likely that many hours would be non- sailing time. I never sat at WORK fantasizing about varnishing a boat. But now it gives me pleasure to own a pretty boat ("Life is too short to own an ugly boat") especially when I contributed to its appearance. (No I didn't paint it but I did work hard to earn the dough for someone else to paint it for me.) After a day or a couple of days of sailing i enjoy a hot shower (including the shower bilge pump). I have come to rely on Minke's radar and gps chartplotter as I sail in fog often .My most reliable helmsman is a below deck auto pilot.

I was proud of my J Boat and bragged of its virtues (including it simplicity) but now I extol the virtues of my current boat. Does my electrics/electronics break down? You bet. When it does I don't through it out in the name of KISS . I fix it. They improve the quality of my life.Some of them (epirbs,etc.) may even increase the quantity of my life .

[Joe CD MS 300]

Len,

If I could, I'd be the Jay Leno of boats I just like being out on the water. All types whether sail, power. simple with only a tiller and sails or loaded to the giles with gadgets and electronics whether sail or power.

This would be a start my stable (not in any order):

1. CD 45
2. An all wood cruiser, maybe a Concordia
3. A 40' to 45" Catamaran, probably a Fountain Pajot
4.One of those new Morris day sailers without the safety rails. Just love the clean look
5. A primo Hincklley 40
6. A small catboat daysailer.
7. An open cockpit Ty
8. A 1500 HP Ocean racing cat.
9.Hogedon Yacht's "Liberty" commuter
10. Just about anything Hogedon built
11.An antique wood commuter like "Ragtime" or one of those old
presidential type yachts
12. A nice antique launch 18'-22
13. A nice Maine / Lobster boat type trawler
14. A Edey & Duiff Stone Horse with a coal or wood heater for some nice fall weekend sailing.



Am I nuts?

'

[Dave Jeffery]

Yes, Joe, you are nuts. And this is the friendly asylum. When you get all those boats, can I have your CD motorsailer?

[Al Levesque]

Please add me to the list of those without automatic bilge pump. I could never understand what they were good for. My younger brother always had one and one of his boats sank in place in his slip. He was even plugged in so as to charge the battery while the boat sank. Unlike him, I always close seacocks when leaving the boat. I keep them closed while sailing too.

[John Vigor]

Glad to hear it, Al. If enough of us confess to being non-automatic- bilge-pumpers, we'll all be able to come out of the closet en masse. Then the others won't regard us as "queer" any more.

Cheers,

John V.

[Len]

Joe,

what about a 75" Nordhavn, A cherubini schooner,etc.

I would love to see a sail magazine do a story on these- CD"S, Robinhood, Cape George, Shannon, Cabot 36, Middleton Marine, Hans Christians,and other (under 40') semi custom boats instead of the factory production stuff they constantly hawk.

[Joe Myerson]

What a relief to know I'm not the only boatowner out there who doesn't have an electric bilge pump! (I also like to use paper charts, although I have succumbed to keeping a handheld GPS mounted in the cockpit and linked up to my DSC-equipped radio.)

And, as you probably can tell from this posting, OJ, I also know what it means to make something "perfectly clear."

Two years ago in December, possibly during a slow period, the mechanic at my yard called me with the dire warning: "We just discovered that you don't have an electric bilge pump on your boat."

This wasn't news to me, but he went on:

"Do you want us to install one? It will only cost about $500."

I held my breath, counted to ten slowly and thanked him for the offer. "I've got a hand pump mounted in the cockpit, a plastic 'Thirsty Mate' in the starboard locker and plenty of sponges and buckets," I added.

That said, my boat does leak a bit (I think it's coming from the starboard cockpit locker, when the wind and rain come from a certain angle), and my bilge is not always bone dry.

But I'll stick to my hand bailing (and paper charts), thank you.

--Joe

Oh, BTW, I took my first sail of the season last Sunday. Life is good!

[RMeigel]

I don't have an electronic bilge pump either. In ten years I've owned Pacem, only once did I have concern about water accumulation between visits to the boat - when the stuffing box needed to be repacked - but I knew what the problem was and fixed it (when the boat was still in the water, I might add

My reason for eschewing it is not wanting to invite whatever electrolysis complications might be introduced. Not being an electrician, I don't know what I'm talking about and it might be an imaginary concern on my part.

But if the time between my visits to the boat when she's in the water were to be so long that I was worried about water accumulating in the bilge -- I'd haul the boat.

[Oswego John]

Hey Joe,

"Let me make myself perfectly clear".

For the elucidation of those youngsters that haven't reached the magic number of 50 years of age, and for those of the distaff side who are loathe to admit it, those famous words were used by my patron saint, St. Richard "Tricky" Nixon (toss up between him and Rube Goldberg) as a preface to one of his whoppers.

Ah, me. The glory days are long past.


O J