Steering a 28 in reverse

[Bill]

Tried to find the archived blurb on how to successfully steer in reverse but could not find it.

Aside from wind, tide, current - like very calm water- when leaving a slip, is the method just like steering a car in reverse?

Best method I have used is to ramp-up the boat in reverse and then put it in neutral to steer. Seems to work. But what about all the
other factors influencing the boat? Is it still like reversing a car?

So, any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Bill

[Parfait's Provider]

You have a good handle on how to avoid prop walk; sometimes it is to your advantage, but somehow or other it usually isn't. I don't back into my slip so that I can keep the bow up into the cross wind until the last possible moment and then swing the boat parallel to the slip and let her drift to the leeward side and a convenient piling.

When leaving with that same crosswind from the channel I usually walk the boat out while the stern drifts into the basin.

[sgbernd]

I spent a good part of an afternoon in a wide channel with an nice breeze (10-12 kts) practicing backing. There were some buoys in the channel and I practiced trying to back down to them from various angles of wind. After several failed ideas, I concluded, you can't or at least I can't. This boat will not back in any controlled fashion. The bow tries to follow the wind and regardless of rudder, prop speed, etc, the wind wins. The only way to avoid the bow following the wind it is to point the bow dead down wind but then the prop walk just crabs you sideways after few yards. Besides, the wind is seldom so cooperative. I tried the bursts of power then neutral, steady low power, steady high power, etc. Long story short, you only have control forward and reverse is at best a brake or nudge if you need it. I now assume the boat does not go backwards under control and plan accordingly.

Steve Bernd Valhalla
CD-28 #359
Ventura, CA

[rtbates]

The biggest factor in a CD's reverse course is the wind, period, end of sentence. There is no way that I have found to counter this. The bow WILL blow off the wind! The biggest issue with pointing directly into the wind is that it's a crap shoot as to what side the bow falls off. Once the bow falls off the wind that's it, no sense in fighting it, you won't win. Best advice is to use this to your advantage and always place your bow upwind of where you need it to end up. Also learn and practice the act of "backing and filling". I've managed to get Seraph to rotate 180 in a space of maybe two boat lengths using this method.

In most cases you want to avoid having to backdown. There are lots of ways to get a boat pointed in the right direction w/o having to resort to backing. Spring lines, backing and filling, an anchor.

Best advice I could give is to learn how your boat behaves and let it tell you what it wants to do.

Good luck and practice, practice, practice

[RonE58]

I see this string is over a month old, so sorry for the late reply. I just brought my newly acquired CD 27 in to my busy marina this weekend. I had a pearson ensign for a few years with a 5hp outboard and never really had a problem maneuvering but I find this cd 27 difficult. I spend a good hour this afternoon trying to reverse out of my split, and then just practicing around behind the bulkhead, but it was pretty impossible, the bow just swung around. Turning the boat around in the slip by using lines may be difficult if there isn't enough room. How does one perform the the act of 'backing and filling' and what does it mean to 'prop walk'?
Ron

[Sea Hunt]

I can only try to answer the “prop walk” part of your inquiry.

First, visualize yourself behind your CD 27 looking forward over the stern transom and toward the bow. I am assuming you have a prop that rotates “clockwise” when in forward gear. When you are in forward gear and making way slowly, the “clockwise” rotation of the prop tends to move (push or "walk") the boat slowly “counterclockwise”.

When in reverse gear, the opposite tendencies apply. Because the prop is rotating “counterclockwise”, the boat has a tendency to move or "walk" “clockwise”. Someone suggested the easy way to think of it is to visualize the prop blades as shovels digging into the bottom (more accurately, the water). When they “dig” in a clockwise rotation (forward gear), the blades tend to pull or "walk" the stern in the direction of the digging - counterclockwise. When they “dig” in a counterclockwise rotation (reverse gear), the blades again tend to pull or "walk" the stern in the direction of the digging - this time clockwise. Prop walk useful when approaching or departing a dock.

All of the above applies in reverse order if your prop is a “counterclockwise” prop in forward gear. I am told they are not common.

Of course, I don’t actually yet own a Cape Dory so my information is worth what you have paid for it. I am sure (and I hope) experienced sailors will quickly correct errors in the above explanation. It’s after midnight in Florida and I can offer no rational excuse for being up so late.

[Neil Gordon]

... but it was pretty impossible, the bow just swung around.

It's the windage on the bow that makes the boat nearly impossible to steer in reverse. The tendency of the prop to walk only makes it worse.

What you'll learn is that the reaction of the boat is predictable if not controllable. That's half the battle.

[Ed Haley]

I thought I had a handle on backing up in my CD330. The propwalk tended to port and if I apply starboard rudder (10 degrees) while backing using burst of power, I could back up in a straight line. I could usually even control the way the bow fell off in the wind.

With a new engine (4 more hp) it doesn't work that way. With a port propwalk, I have to apply PORT rudder to make it back up straight (in no wind). Go figure.

Maybe we could use trim tabs on our rudders

[Al Levesque]

The question of back and fill hasn't been answered yet so I will attempt it. I have found that I can turn our CD33 in probably less than two boat lengths, even against a fairly strong wind. I turn the rudder hard to starboard, throttle for a burst forward and as soon as the boat starts to move forward I shift and throttle for a burst in reverse. Again, as soon as the boat starts to move aft, I shift forward and repeat as above. I keep the rudder to starboard throughout. I continue shifting and bursting until the boat is pointed where I want. This also works in the other direction but not as well because the prop walk helps move the stern to port. Be sure to idle before shifting.

As for backing, I concur with the others. If backing into the wind, the wind will help by keeping the bow downwind somewhat but the bow may swing with momentum and you need to wait until it swings back. You also need to offset the propwalk. It is never reliable.

[Kittiwake]

As Neil very accurately states below - this is what to learn. It is very predictable, wind and current (if strong enough) are more important factors than what I try to do

... but it was pretty impossible, the bow just swung around.

It's the windage on the bow that makes the boat nearly impossible to steer in reverse. The tendency of the prop to walk only makes it worse.

What you'll learn is that the reaction of the boat is predictable if not controllable. That's half the battle.

[Drew]

Folks, I think it's fair to say that this phenomanon is not unique to Cape Dory sailboats. I doubt there is any CD-specific wisdom to provide - anticipating how wind and current will impact the course of a vessel is good seamanship and a good bit of fun. Don't blame Carl A. or CD, just try and spend as much time as possible moving in the direction of the pointy end of the boat.

[Richard G.]

Moved slips not too long ago. I am still in an up wind slip but just enough difference in angle of the wind that it was difficult to get off the dock and get the bow across the wind to head out of the finger in the right direction.

After trying different approaches including attempts with lines, I realized that backing out with the motor and taking advantage of the related prop walk, makes it all work. As the stern is pulled to starboard (by the prop walk) the bow crosses the wind and is blown down in the direction that I need to head.

No need to try and control the walk, finally a benefit to it. The hardest thing for me is being in a down wind slip and trying to get out by backing. That is a real challenge.

[bobc]

After my third season, I still haven't found a reliable method to exercise absolute control when backing my CD27. Prop walk and rudder influence aren't strong enough to overcome all of the other forces.

My normal routine is to walk the boat part way out of the slip and then give the stern a hint as to the direction I'd like it to go as I finish climbing on board. After that, I take whatever I get.

Nine out of ten times, I go the direction I want to go at the start. The tenth time, the combination of wind a currents prevents that, so I go the direction the boat wants to go and make it look like that's what I wanted all along. It's kind of like working with children. When the boat decides go the other way I don't fight it, I play along and simply back and fill, spinning 270 degrees, until I'm pointed in the direction "I" want to go.

[Warren Kaplan]

After my third season, I still haven't found a reliable method to exercise absolute control when backing my CD27. Prop walk and rudder influence aren't strong enough to overcome all of the other forces.

My normal routine is to walk the boat part way out of the slip and then give the stern a hint as to the direction I'd like it to go as I finish climbing on board. After that, I take whatever I get.

Nine out of ten times, I go the direction I want to go at the start. The tenth time, the combination of wind a currents prevents that, so I go the direction the boat wants to go and make it look like that's what I wanted all along. It's kind of like working with children. When the boat decides go the other way I don't fight it, I play along and simply back and fill, spinning 270 degrees, until I'm pointed in the direction "I" want to go.

I use a slip line on my CD27. A 60 ft line that I fix to the starboard side stern cleat (could be port if better) and then bring it around an aft pole of the slip and then back into the cockpit. I leave it loose.
I put the boat in reverse and if she is backing straight I put no tension on the line. When I back out I need to turn the bow to port. So as soon as the bow is clear of the last slip pole I haul in on the slip line which automatically pulls the stern to starboard and points the bow to port. Once I'm facing the proper direction I put the engine in NEUTRAL for the 15 seconds it takes me to haul the slip line back aboard. Then with the line safely aboard and no chance of getting fouled on the prop, I put the boat into gear and off I go. I've NEVER had trouble with controlling my boat coming out of a slip since employing a slip line.

[BarbofCapeCod]

I spent a good part of an afternoon in a wide channel with an nice breeze (10-12 kts) practicing backing. There were some buoys in the channel and I practiced trying to back down to them from various angles of wind. After several failed ideas, I concluded, you can't or at least I can't. This boat will not back in any controlled fashion. The bow tries to follow the wind and regardless of rudder, prop speed, etc, the wind wins. The only way to avoid the bow following the wind it is to point the bow dead down wind but then the prop walk just crabs you sideways after few yards. Besides, the wind is seldom so cooperative. I tried the bursts of power then neutral, steady low power, steady high power, etc. Long story short, you only have control forward and reverse is at best a brake or nudge if you need it. I now assume the boat does not go backwards under control and plan accordingly.

Steve Bernd Valhalla
CD-28 #359
Ventura, CA

I just purchased a CD-28 and absolutely love the way she sails; however, the boat appears to have a SERIOUS design flaw: it can not be controlled predictably when going astern. While going forward is clearly the direction of choice and that most used, during which she does splendidly, occasions do arise when going astern is necessary, and at times essential.

Our boat, Celtic Ray, is equipped with the original MD2B (which functions wonderfully, recently allowing us to motor for 6 hours up LI Sound at 1600 rpm without difficulty and little fuel use). However, when I put her in reverse, at about 1000-1200 rpm, to back off a dock, the boat executed a vague drifting motion astern, during which various positionings of the helm seem to be of no interest to her. While to her credit she didn't go forward, she slowly left the dock in a backwards/sideways motion that made me think she had lost her prop or I had lost my mind.

Upon quick inspection, neither appeared to be true. Now, after checking the cd owner's association site, I find that, among praise for the Cape Dory's many virtues, is a dark family secret: the CD-28, and likely other CD models, can not be steered astern, at least using conventional positioning of rudder and throttle.

So I am calling upon more seasoned CD-28 owners to reveal to me those secrets of going astern that have allowed you survive in a world where going backward is sometimes the preferred direction.