Westerbeke diesel problems, post-flood. Help!

[cguthrie]

My 1981 CD27 was repowerd about 12 years ago (before I bought it) with a Westerbeke 13. It has been great for four seasons and I've been glad to have the larger motor. But this season it has become progressively hard to start. I've changed batteries, put on a new starter, cleaned the fuel, changed the fuel filter, and it is still very hard to start. Now the yard is saying that they think the compression may be low and that the engine is "tired" and we should think about replacing it. They haven't done a compression test on it yet, however. It only has 750 hours on it so it is very hard to believe that this motor is finished. When starting up it throws a lot of carbon. But once it gets started it seems to run fine.

At the start of the season, another yard left the seacocks open and flooded the interior, covering the bottom half of the engine with water (don't worry, I'm not going back there this season). I didn't think there was any lasting damage, but I wondered if it were possible that the flood was a cause for the starting problems I described.

I'm at the limits of my own knowledge and will call Westerbeke this week but I wondered if anyone out there had wisdom to share. Thanks.

[S/V Necessity]

Cliff,
If they haven't even run a compression test, and they are suggesting a new motor already. I would stay away from them. You need to find a better more honest mechanic. If you do find an honest one, treat him right. Find one that doesn't have any engines for sale.

The black smoke you see is most likely being caused by the hard starting. Since you are turning over the engine but it isn't firing the fuel isn't being burned. But it's still being dispensed. When she does finally fire there's a lot of fuel in the works, and things run a bit rich for a little bit.

I wouldn't worry about the water problem so much. I would think it would cause problems with the bottom end anyways, but anything is possible. If the oil has always looked "normal" I wouldn't worry excessively. If you remember checking the oil and it being sludgy, white, or full or red rust.... I would worry a lot.

Make sure the exhaust flows properly. The air filter is clean, and air flow isn't obstructed. If it has any thing that constitutes a cold start system I would check it carefully. I would have the injectors checked at some point. I also would check the compression! That might be the first thing I would do!

Do not let the people who want you to buy a new engine check the compression. It would be best to do it yourself, otherwise watch them do it, or have someone you REALLY trust do it. Also there can frequently be disagreement about what constitutes low compression. So make sure that you get an accurate figure, and make sure what that figure means is accurate also. Don't hesitate to get 3-4 opinions. I would.

If the compression is low it can usually be fixed. It could be a bad valve, or bad head gasket for example. I would guess it's more than likely NOT a bad piston and bore... And this is the only reason to replace the engine IMO.

Diesels are TOUGH Dent give up on her too soon! The bottom ends are typically strongly built and the the piston and bore usually last a long time, a lot longer than other engines.

[cguthrie]

What a helpful reply, Mark. Thank you. They have suggested a compression test but may be shy because they know they have really screwed up on some other things already. The difficult point is that this is a very high-end, expensive, and reputable boat yard in Camden, Maine (you can probably guess which one). I went to them deliberately because they were Westerbeke certified. But your comments about the toughness of this engine ring true to me and I won't give up on it easily. Cliff

[tartansailor]

Cliff,
You commented that the engine was partially flooded.
Starters are generally at the bottom of engines.
Then you mentioned hard starting.
Can you put a handle on how fast your starter cranked before versus after the flood?
Speed is critical in starting diesels, more so than gas engines.
I would put the starter on a growler first, then run a compression test.
IMHO
Dick

[Andy Denmark]

Hard starting and black smoke in a diesel eengine are often indicative of poorly functioning injectors. The injectors are easily pulled and can be checked for spray pattern, pop-off pressure and leakage. This is usually the first thing a qualified diesel mechanic will do. The injectors can be brought up to specs (or replaced if necessary) before reinstalling them.

While the injectors are out the compression can be checked.

Hope this helps
________
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[Warren S]

Can you verify that the glow plugs are coming on? Will it start easier if you hold them on longer? My Westerbeke 13 has 1250 hours and seems to run like new (I just bought the boat 2 months ago).

I agree that black smoke would be caused by excessive cranking. With only 750 hours, the compression is fine, barring internal damage (run with no oil, etc.)

[Andy Denmark]

Of course, Warren's post is right on the money. The W-13 is extremely finickey (sic) about adequate preheating and would result in hard (or impossible) starting without it. The result of trying to start w/o proper preheating (my 1982 W-13 engine manual recommends 20 seconds), is long term cranking, black smoke and erratic running for a few seconds --- and that is on the assumption that it starts in the first place.

All that said, a check of the glow plugs is definitely in order -- by far the cheapest of all the alternatives posed.

Some years ago I loaned Rhiannon to a friend (and his family) who was house sitting for me while I was out on a delivery. I returned to find they had not taken the boat from the pier. He couldn't get the engine started. When I went to the boat and started it in the usual manner, it fired right up. His question was, "What was all that waiting for?", referring to the 20 second "glow plug time." While I had instructed him to do this, his assumption was that glow plugs were for cold-weather starting only and this was the middle of summer. This was a big Aha-moment for him.

The big danger in long-term cranking on any engine with a waterlift muffler is water intrusion back into the engine as the water pump will fill the muffler and the overrflow will run back thru the exhaust valves into the combusiton chambers. This is a big and expensive problem to repair. Be careful in cranking for long periods of time if the engine doesn't light off right away or you could be out big $$$ for a teardown type of repair.

Hope this helps
________
Marijuana pictures

[Boyd]

Hi Cliff:

I have a Westerbeke 21A and am quite familiar with your hard starting problem. I would agree with all input so far and emhasize the need for a compression test by an independent mechanic. The values for my 21A are as follows and I assume your engine is virtually the same.

Dry... over 425 preferably around 450 psi

Wet.... 500 or more.

The engine will probably not start at all if you are below 400.

If the preheaters are working you should notice about a 1/2 volt drop in system voltage when you hit the preheat button.

You can check the preheaters with an volt/ohm meter yourself. You should of course have 12.5 volts to ground at each preheater before the preheat button depressed. Remove them one at a time and check resistance. It should be .2 ohms. If you get zero or infinity that one is done. This check is recommended at 500 hours.

Westerbeke recommends checking the fuel injectors at 800 hours. Mine have way more on them and my mechanic said to leave well enough alone as they rarely fail.

The valve clearance can also lead to poor compression. It should be .12 cold on my 21A. Veryfy that is the correct gap and check it.

If you perform all the above you will know what condition your engine is in. I rebuilt mine in place after the PO abused it to death at only 800 hours, doing much of the work myself and saved $$.

Let us know what you find.

Boyd
s/vTern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

[cguthrie]

Well after three weeks at the yard this is what has been done in order:
Replaced #1 battery (which needed doing) and battery contacts
Replaced glow plugs
New fuel filters and filtered fuel.

The yard then said it started fine, but it was still dead when I came down to try. When this was confirmed, they said the starter was bad. It was sent out and deemed in too bad a shape for the rebuild so a new one was put on. It was in the midst of these things that the service manager told me the engine was tired and might need replacing, which prompted my posting.

Now with the new starter it seems to start fine and run well. The mechanic still suggests a compression test and injector spray test, which I'm willing to do at the end of the season if they are not too expensive. Meanwhile, I'll try to press the other yard (the one that almost sank my boat) to take some responsibility for the starter bill.

The advice I had from you all has been very helpful. I think the service manager has a difficult time communicating well, and his talk about ditching the engine was very premature. This board made a big difference in how I could read the situation. Thanks!!!

[Parfait's Provider]

Cliff,

Your sad story is sounding rather familar. Parfait had a sinking experience before we repowered and it went about like yours has gone. After cleaning things up and running the engine, a Perkins 4-108, it got harder and harder to start. Finally, it wouldn't turn over even though the started was pulling good current.

I started to go for a new starter, but got the insurance company involved and they agreed to have a competent mechanic pull the engine to see what other damage had occured; since the starter on the 4-108 is nearly impossible to replace anyway, this wasn't much additional expense for them. There was water in places it shouldn't have been, the flywheel had started to rust, the starter definitely needed to be replaced, etc. We repowered and are very happy with the results if not the downtime and price.

If the first yard is responsible for sinking the boat to begin with, I'd be going back and having a discussion with them and their insurance company. Maybe your insurance company can help cut a deal that gets your Westerbeke back in top condition. You ought to be able to sit back and watch it happen, not fret about details that might be overlooked, etc. You need a bit of a tear down even if the compression is great or you will be paying for their mistake until you repower or sell the boat.