Toe rail replacement

[ricks]

I have somewhat successfully removed a section of toe rail that was leaking badly on my 25D. I have lifted the offending section off the deck up to the scarf joint - about 10' from the stern. This appears to be the original bedding and is of 5200 strength so it was quite a job getting it up. The question I have is do I have any hope of separating the scarf joint? It appears to be epoxied and I can't seem to get it apart even using anti-bond which was a great help getting the toe rail off the deck. Would I be better off just cutting cleanly and attempting to fabricate a clean joint? I have no intention of removing the entire side.

A follow on question is what is the current consensus (if there is one) on bedding the section of toe rail when I replace - I am planning on using 4200. Any comment?

BTW, this side was so painful that I am planning on cheating and just removing the offending screws on the other side, using shorter screws that do not project through the hull step into the cabin, and just filling with epoxy to reseal. If necessary I will fill the holes and seal from the inside.

Thanks for any assistance.

Regards,

Rick

[Russell]

For the toe rail scarf joint I am sure it was probably epoxied, your going to have to cut it. With the right tool this is not a problem. If you happen to have, or have access to a Fein Saw it would be perfect for the job, but since its a $300 tool its probably not worth buying just for the one job. A dremel tool might work with the right bit, but teak is hard and will go through the dremel bits quickly. On my CD the toerail scarf isnt just a strait slanted line, it starts out going strait down, then it goes aft at a about a 60 degree angle then strait down again., which would make cutting right on the scarf line next to impossible. If yours is the same way I would just going ahead and cut it along the 60 degree angle the entire way. Another tool to consider using if you dont have access to a fein saw would be a japanese style pull saw, you can get amazingly accurate with these hand saws. When putting it back on and regluing the scarf, mix in some fine teak saw dust in the epoxy to help the color resemble the teak.

As for on the other side, I wouldnt go with a shorter screw nessisarily, this is what I would do: Pull out the existing screws, tape very well underneith where the screws came through. Fill the old hole with epoxy much of the way, but not all the way to the head of the screw, so you dont have to recountersink it, let the epoxy cure fully, give it a couple days, when mixing the epoxy do not sure a high density filler, you want something soft enough for the wood screws to be able to get through again. Then redrill it with the correct sized tapered drill bit for the screw your using. Then put the screws back in, coating them with 4200 or similar before driving them in. This should do a good job of stopping any offending leak. Note that this solution, as well as your idea of using shorter screws does nothing to rebed the rest of the toe rail, while it will stop leaks into the cabin it will not prevent water from getting under the toerail and turning the wood black under the varnish, rebedding would be the only real solution to that.

Hope that helps, and I am no carpentry expert but I have spent the last several weeks tackling half a dozen wood repairs on my exterior teak and two very close friends of mine are marine carpenters who give me tons of good advice.

[Russell]

Oh, one more thing with the rebedding: If there is even the slightest chance of some amount of the bedding compound showing at all do not use 4200, it turns a yellow shade after a couple of months. I beleive sikaflex makes a teak or mahogony colored bedding compound that would do the trick in this case.

[ricks]

Thanks Russell, a couple of comments and questions for you or others with experience.

- I will probably just cut a 45 degree angle at the original scarf. If I cut at 60 degrees in the same area as the original scarf it will follow the original cut and leave a thin layer of wood - I am concerned about cracking. When rebedding there will be a gap the width of the saw blade which I will either fill with epoxy mixed with teak sawdust or the sikaflex mahogany in an attempt to blend and match.

- I had not planned on filling the screw holes at all. The screws seemed to come out fine so I assumed that the formed threads in the fiberglass would be ok and I was just going to use the existing hole and threads. I believe the holes in the wood were just clearance. I was going to fill the hole with epoxy as you suggested to seal of course.

- I am still inclined to think that using screws that are ~1/2 shorter (they currently extended ~1/4 into the cabin) and sealing the holes with epoxy might be a good idea. It is my understanding that the screws do not extend through the hull lip into the cabin on many CDs. If that hole is sealed there is no way to get water into the cabin. I'll make the leap and believe that 1/4" of holding power on these screws is not going to make much difference - they only hold the toe rail. Why would this not be a good idea.

Thanks for the dialogue, it is always good to hear from others when working on a project and don't have a clue...

Rick

[Russell]

- I will probably just cut a 45 degree angle at the original scarf. If I cut at 60 degrees in the same area as the original scarf it will follow the original cut and leave a thin layer of wood - I am concerned about cracking. When rebedding there will be a gap the width of the saw blade which I will either fill with epoxy mixed with teak sawdust or the sikaflex mahogany in an attempt to blend and match.

The idea is actually to follow the origonal cut as closely as possible, so you do not see two epoxied joints right next to each other. Unless CD did a better job on your scarfs then they did on mine, on my CD the epoxied scarf has about 1mm thickness of epoxy, its very plainly visisble and I would cut on the line of epoxy. If yours was better done then mine and the expoxy joint is more invisible then you indeed have the right idea not to follow that joint as it would be impossible to get it perfect. For the joint itsself though I wouldnt use anything other then epoxy, any bedding compound like sikaflex wont be nearly as sandable and impossible to get a real clean joint and be able to work with it after.

- I had not planned on filling the screw holes at all. The screws seemed to come out fine so I assumed that the formed threads in the fiberglass would be ok and I was just going to use the existing hole and threads. I believe the holes in the wood were just clearance. I was going to fill the hole with epoxy as you suggested to seal of course.

- I am still inclined to think that using screws that are ~1/2 shorter (they currently extended ~1/4 into the cabin) and sealing the holes with epoxy might be a good idea. It is my understanding that the screws do not extend through the hull lip into the cabin on many CDs. If that hole is sealed there is no way to get water into the cabin. I'll make the leap and believe that 1/4" of holding power on these screws is not going to make much difference - they only hold the toe rail. Why would this not be a good idea.

The reason I suggested not going down in size on screw is that I have no idea what the deck thickness is there on your CD. On my CD36 its extreamly thick, the toerail is actually screwed down at the hull/deck joint and there is over an inch of glass there. Being that yours is a smaller CD I was concerned there may not be enough area for the screw to grip, I figured thats why CD went all the way through on your boat. But if it is indeed thick and there will be plenty of screw in the glass then I dont see a reason not to go shorter. The toe rail takes no loads, maybe the occational kick, or supporting your partial body weight as you prop a foot against it while putting a reef in, but between the bedding compound and the screws you dont have to worry. When origonally installed it needed much more holding power then it does now, as the wood was just freshly moulded and wanted to go back to its natural shape, at this point that is not an issue. So I would say go for your origonal idea of shorter screws.

[Dave Brandt]

Hi RIck,

A couple of thoughts.

I had the toe rails off my `76 CD-25 ( not a D ) and I am pretty sure there are screws in that joint ( up from the bottom ), so cutting it might be a problem.

The toe rail screws are an important part of the hull to deck joint. During the time mine were off I had a section of the joint start to open up. I would be concerned with using shorter screws.

I used 4200 to seal the toe rails back down, I was quite happy with how it worked.

Dave

[Ron M.]

Rick - I replaced toe rail on both sides of bow about 6' long. Used only hand tools and got tighter joints than original, (Resorsinol glue was the GAP filler in my case). I made a template of 1/4" plexiglass- that I had handy,(plywood would be fine also). on inboard and outboard sides of joint. This was tightly held with a 6" paralell clamp. I easily wasted the bulk of the material with saw and chisel, then used a very sharp 1-1/2" chisel to "plane" the long part of the joint using the template as a guide. A file and sandpaper completed the fitting. Two vertical screws through joint pulled all home. Making the template and fitting 2 scarfs probably took a couple of hours. Paralell clamps were invaluable in keeping the new rail section aligned with the original, and pulling the new piece down to the deck buy clamping against the rubrail. I used Gorilla glue and teak Boatlife caulk. Looks fine after 3 years.
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Vapir Air One

[Dan & Pat]

I'm glad to see this topic appear because I've been trying to replace a 10' section of the toe rail on the aft port side. I had no trouble finding a new piece of teak, and was pleased that it was $1 a running foot!

Play it Again Sam is also a CD 25 (not D). Some time in the last 30 some years, the Port side entire rubrail was replaced, and I'd like to get my hands around the throat of the ... (sorry, I digress). The repair didn't leave any forethought to anyone ever having to re-do it. They used 5200 to 'glue' the whole thing on, so even after removing 30 screws from one section of it, there was no budging it, even with a 2 lb mallet striking a 2X4 aligned along the edge. GRRRR! I ended up using a very thin sawzall hacksaw blade, and cutting it along the hull. That was a 2 hour job. So, IMHO don't ever consider that the repair you do today will be a permanent one. One day, your or someone else may have to do it again.

To get back to the toe-rail issue. I have been unable to turn the screws out that hold the old smashed toe rail in place. I'm thinking the screws were probably fiberglassed or epoxied in place similar to the rub rail issue, (Another "permanent" repair by the P.O). I have tried a big slotted screwdriver with vice grips to no avail. The impact electric screwdriver won't budge them either. And, its not just one or two that are giving me the hard time, its all of them!

I'm considering trying a little heat to see if I can't get the screw to let go its grip. Maybe an electric soldering iron will transfer enough heat to melt away the offending binding. Any one got a better idea?

Dan

[ricks]

To get back to the toe-rail issue. I have been unable to turn the screws out that hold the old smashed toe rail in place. I'm thinking the screws were probably fiberglassed or epoxied in place similar to the rub rail issue, (Another "permanent" repair by the P.O). I have tried a big slotted screwdriver with vice grips to no avail. The impact electric screwdriver won't budge them either. And, its not just one or two that are giving me the hard time, its all of them!

I'm considering trying a little heat to see if I can't get the screw to let go its grip. Maybe an electric soldering iron will transfer enough heat to melt away the offending binding. Any one got a better idea?

Dan

I used heat to get mine moving - the screws had themselves been sealed with what appeared to be something a little more pliable than the rail bedding compound. I used a small propane torch and applied the flame directly to the head of the screw for a couple minutes then waited a few minutes for things to warm up. They came out nicely. You can use your finger to sense the heat of the screw and insure you don't get it too hot - try applying the flame intermittently until you get a feel for it.

I am still waffling on what I am going to use to seal the screws themselves. I am proceeding with a plan that will allow me to remove the toe rail agian should I need to.

Rick

[marka]

If it were me, I would try to replicate the scarf pattern exactly by cutting the entire old scarfd off, cut the nib on the piece that remains on the boat. I would use a fine toothed back saw or dovetail saw (less than $20.00).

For the new toe rail, I would steam bend or laminate the new piece to the curve, not cut a curve from a flat board. If you do this, you'll have what's called grain run out (exposed end grain).

[Ron M.]

Steam bending / laminating toe rail is unnecessary,(unless you have a short section-less than 3 feet, and in that case it should be made longer).The board on edge will curve nicely to the deck and rub rail with the assistance of some clamps.
I have replaced most of the exterior teak on my boat and never considered steam or lamination - not necessary.
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Easy Vape

[marka]

Ron,

Better yet. Thanks

[Bob Emmons]

Hi Russell and all,
I am in the process of fixing a Hull/Deck joint leak on my CD30. I have removed the toerail and exposed the joint. Russell, you mention to use tape on top of the joint...what kind of tape. I was just going to mix some West system epoxy and liberally spread it over the exposed joint before I rebed the toe-rail. Is not straight full strenght epoxy fine without any filler?
Bob Emmons
CD30 "Red Wing"

[Russell]

Hi Russell and all,
I am in the process of fixing a Hull/Deck joint leak on my CD30. I have removed the toerail and exposed the joint. Russell, you mention to use tape on top of the joint...what kind of tape. I was just going to mix some West system epoxy and liberally spread it over the exposed joint before I rebed the toe-rail. Is not straight full strenght epoxy fine without any filler?
Bob Emmons
CD30 "Red Wing"

I was refering to use tape to seal the hole inside the boat, from the toerail screw that went through the hull/deck joint, so when filled with epoxy it does not just drain into the interior of the boat. You may not have to worry about it, but if you do have leaks in your joint, then its likely epoxy will go through those leaks and just find itsself inside the cabin. Yes using expoxy without filler is fine, but actually in your case where you have potential leaks, adding filler to the epoxy can make it of a consistancy where it wont flow and you wouldnt have to worry about it draining into the cabin.