Volvo MS4A Diesel Transmission Problems

[Walt Bilofsky]

I have MS4A transmissions on the two Volvo TAMD41B diesels on my CD 30 powerboat.

After 950 hours of operation, the clutch cones have pretty much stopped grabbing. The local Volvo dealer originally said it would be about a six hour job, but now says Volvo wants him to replace the cones ($800 for two) plus 17 hours of labor for a total of about $2300. (That's just the estimate - who knows what the real total will be.)

About a year ago, I wrote to the president of Volvo America about the egregious prices they charge for parts - $23.32 for an oil filter, $200 for a Y-connector for the engine electrical cable, etc. I got a letter back about how the prices reflected Volvo's insistence on top quality. Now my dealer tells me that I can expect this repair every three years or so. That doesn't seem like quality to me.

Would the person who posted something about a class action lawsuit against Volvo please repost his experience with these transmissions, and particularly the URL for the website about the lawsuit?

Thanks,

Walt Bilofsky



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Tom Nolan]

I have MS4A transmissions on the two Volvo TAMD41B diesels on my CD 30 powerboat.

After 950 hours of operation, the clutch cones have pretty much stopped grabbing. The local Volvo dealer originally said it would be about a six hour job, but now says Volvo wants him to replace the cones ($800 for two) plus 17 hours of labor for a total of about $2300. (That's just the estimate - who knows what the real total will be.)

About a year ago, I wrote to the president of Volvo America about the egregious prices they charge for parts - $23.32 for an oil filter, $200 for a Y-connector for the engine electrical cable, etc. I got a letter back about how the prices reflected Volvo's insistence on top quality. Now my dealer tells me that I can expect this repair every three years or so. That doesn't seem like quality to me.

Would the person who posted something about a class action lawsuit against Volvo please repost his experience with these transmissions, and particularly the URL for the website about the lawsuit?

Thanks,

Walt Bilofsky

Walt, I read your board regularly. Great work.
We used to own a 1975 CD 28 named "Moonshadow".
I copied the URL down out of curiosity, here it is :
http://users.southeast.net/~tleffler/volvo/
Doesn't sound like much fun.
Tom Nolan

[Ned Kroeker]

The Volvo MS4A has been at the center of controversy for some years. Background can be found at http://users.southeast.net/~tleffler/volvo/ (and another mirror site that I don't remember, look in the classified ads in BOAT/US REPORTS for a Volvo class action solicitation ad that lists both webpages).

The fundamental claim is that the design of the transmission is just not suitable for the horsepower attached, and that the cone clutch fails prematurely. Volvo supplied the TAMD41/MS4A combination to many boat builders; Rampage was the biggest OEM, Cape Dory used the combination in at least the 28 and 30 power boats (I can't say for sure on the 33/36) Typical failure time averages 900 hours, according to those that have gone through 3 and 4 transmissions.

The MS4A on my 1989 CD28 powerboat failed at 1054 hours (2 weekends ago, now). I'll post my choices on fixing this problem in a later post, the story is still evolving. The rough quote the local Volvo dealer (a diesel service firm) gave me for an HS1 transmission was $6500. (Ah, I heard those indrawn breaths!)

The HS1 transmission is the current Volvo production unit, and is a drop-in replacement for the MS4A. However, I have heard a horror story from a CD28 power owner that had the HS1 replace his MS4A, most notably involving overheating of the engine in warm waters with the factory HS1 heat exchanger arrangement.

I asked BOAT/US consumer affairs for any info on the MS4A, here is the reply:

Subject: Volvo transmissions
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:04:12 +0200
From: Caroline Ajootian <carolinea@boatus.com>
To: ekroeker@ma.ultranet.com

Dear Mr. Kroeker:

Yes, Volvo's mechanical transmissions (identified by the "MS" prefix,
for example, yours is an MS4A) are prone to cone clutch failures. Please refer to the article on this subject in the September 1994 issue of "BOAT/U.S. Reports" or give me a call if you no longer have your copy, 703-461-2856. [ned: this article is posted on the website I listed]

Bernard Ettlinger, a Volvo owner in Florida, has been trying for several years to initiate a class action lawsuit against Volvo Penta. He has run advertisements seeking information from other Volvo owners. If you would like to contact him, his phone is 904-744-8979.

I hope this information is helpful. Please call if we can be of any
assistance.

Sincerely,

Caroline Ajootian, Director
Consumer Protection Bureau



ekroeker@ma.ultranet.com

[Walt Bilofsky]

Ned -

Thanks a lot for all the info - this has been a big help in opening negotiations with Volvo and with my dealer.

The rough quote the local Volvo dealer (a diesel service firm) gave me for an HS1 transmission was $6500. (Ah, I heard those indrawn breaths!)

My local guy said the transmission kit (with all parts needed to do the conversion) is $4200, and probably under $1000 labor. He also grumbled about the low markup Volvo allows him, so maybe your dealer is taking a bit larger bite.

- Walt



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Ned Kroeker]

I'll *bet* the local firm is taking a bigger bit at $6500 (although this was just his recollection based on a workup for Rampage MS4A failure earlier that week). Separate confirmation of the HS1 prices match your info.

Between Tony Raymond's experience, and yours/mine experiences-to-come, and probably others (Joe Meranda, your post was lost: are you still out there?) I'd bet it would be worth a special section somewhere here (CCDOA) consolidating information, dealer experience, parts lists and costs, time to get parts, etc etc [I'll volunteer to prepare, but only after I get a MS4A working again). The bad news on Volvo parts seems to be that several (like 4-5) months need to be allocated.

The 900 hour MTBF quoted on Bernie Ettlinger's website seems to be not too far off for the Cape Dory usage. Tony Raymond had 1185 hours, mine had 1054 hours, yours isn't too far different (although apparently only heavily worn rather than full failure).



ekroeker@ma.ultranet.com

[Walt Bilofsky]

I'd bet it would be worth a special section somewhere here (CCDOA) consolidating information, dealer experience, parts lists and costs, time to get parts, etc etc.

The message board will probably continue to work for that. Remember, you can always use the search function for either "transmission" or "MS4A" to turn up all relevant messages.

The bad news on Volvo parts seems to be that several (like 4-5) months need to be allocated.

I haven't heard anything like that (yet). Is that for MS4A parts or HS1 parts? If MS4A, perhaps those of us who replace ours with HS1's should be sure to get the old trannies back, and then we can supply some parts to those who choose to rebuild.

- Walt



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Tony Raymond]

Ned and I exchanged email, "offline". Here is the essence of my experience on my CD28 volvo MS4.

It was starting to give me shifting problems at around 1185 hours. I already knew of this problem with the MS4's so I had a local mechanic look at it and he recommended a proactive rebuild to prevent being stranded. It was the end of last season, so I had him pull it after the boat was hauled in November. When he disassembled it he classified it as "heavily worn" and concluded that I would not have made it another season without total failure. He like most Volvo mechanics has lot's (unfortunately) of experience with this problem. He ordered the parts in November and didn't get them until early spring. I don't believe he was just stringing me along, I think volvo was late with the parts. I trust and like him, and I don't say that about most mechanics (marine or otherwise) I have come across. Cost with labor and parts was $975, parts were around $550.

My decision to rebuild was cost based. I could rebuild the MS4 at least four more times and get another 4000 hours of use, for the cost of an HS1. Since I don't use the boat to make a living, it made sense to me.

Tony



TonyRaymond@digital.com

[Walt Bilofsky]

Tony -

Thanks for posting your experience.

When you talk about your transmission being very worn and having it rebuilt, were you referring to the cone clutch assembly, or were other parts involved?

- Walt



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Tony Raymond]

Walt, I was referring to the cone clutch. He changed three parts, which he considered as worn. I'm not sure which parts make up the "cone clutch assembly", I could dig out the invoice and list the p/n's if you'd like.

Tony



TonyRaymond@digital.com

[Joe Merenda]

I have MS4A transmissions on the two Volvo TAMD41B diesels on my CD 30 powerboat.

I recall that MS4 transmission problems were a hot topic before the server crash. Here's a repeat of my experiences.

After approximately 200 hrs of running time, the port transmission on my CD30 "exploded". The transmission was rebuilt by a local marina here on Long Island (Bay Village Marine, Amityville N.Y.) at a cost of approximately $1600. The mechanic who performed the repair did not know for sure what caused the failure, but indicated it could have been caused by a high speed shift. At the time of the failure I was crusing at 3200 rpm under very calm conditions and am positive that none of the guests or crew touched the shifter. I have since learned that several other MS4 owners have experienced sporadic, unintentional high speed shifting problems. Repeated calls to the Cape Dory dealer, Milford Boat Works, yielded the same results: "we have no knowlege of MS4 failures". On the other hand, a recent call to Robinhood Marine Center confirmed that they have seen a great many MS4 transmission failures. I emailed Joe McCarty for additional information but he never responded.


The other website for information of the class action suite is

http://tmgbbs.com/volvo

I recently met a gentleman who owns a Rampage 31 with a TAMD41/MS4 package. He has had to replace his transmissions several times all at his own expense. He now runs MS5's but is not happy with these either.

I think its clear that the MS4 transmissions are truly lemons and it annoys me to no end that Volvo ignores the situation. Please continue to post any information regarding this topic.

Sincerely


Joe Merenda



emerenda@nassau.cv.net

[Walt Bilofsky]

After approximately 200 hrs of running time, the port transmission on my CD30 "exploded". The transmission was rebuilt by a local marina here on Long Island (Bay Village Marine, Amityville N.Y.) at a cost of approximately $1600. The mechanic who performed the repair did not know for sure what caused the failure, but indicated it could have been caused by a high speed shift.

Joe -

Thanks for reposting your experience.

Here is how the catastrophic failure was explained to me: The cone clutch assembly consists of a shaft with cones at both ends. The shaft slides to move the cones to engage against the cups. There is a thick washer in the middle of the shaft that serves as a stop to keep the shaft from sliding too far.

Over time the washer can deform (the one in my transmission was beginning to do so) and eventually come loose, allowing the shaft to go right through the top of the transmission case.

The washers might now be a different material than originally and less prone to do this.

I am replacing both my transmissions with the HS1 hydraulic transmissions, which Volvo now uses. Normally the old MS4A transmissions would be exchanged back to Volvo, but if anyone is in need of parts, I can put them in touch with my dealer. The unit we've looked at is fine except for the cone clutch and washer, but I can't see repairing it every three years and also risking complete failure.

- Walt Bilofsky



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Joe Merenda]

I have MS4A transmissions on the two Volvo TAMD41B diesels on my CD 30 powerboat.

After 950 hours of operation, the clutch cones have pretty much stopped grabbing.

Walt,

I just remembered something interesting and was wondering if it could be related to cone clutch failures. After the first approximately 100 hrs of operation, ( one season of use at the time ), I noticed that the transmission oil in both my MS4s was black in color and very burnt smelling. I had to change the oil several times during the course of that season to eliminate the black color and burnt smell. I continue to change the oil in each transmission at the end of each season. The rebuilt port MS4 now has about 300 hrs and the original starboard MS4 has 500 hrs. The burnt smell and black color are not nearly as bad as when the transmissions were "new".

My question is, could the burnt smell be a sign of cone clutch wear and has anyone else smelled their transmission oil lately and care to share the experience!



emerenda@nassau.cv.net

[Walt Bilofsky]

I just remembered something interesting and was wondering if it could be related to cone clutch failures. After the first approximately 100 hrs of operation, ( one season of use at the time ), I noticed that the transmission oil in both my MS4s was black in color and very burnt smelling. <snip> My question is, could the burnt smell be a sign of cone clutch wear and has anyone else smelled their transmission oil lately and care to share the experience!

Three things come to mind. First, that can't be normal. The transmissions must be overheating.

Second, my dealer did say in passing that he thought the clutch degradation came from heat in operation. If your transmissions are heating excessively that could contribute to the early failure.

Third, Ned Kroeker mentioned a problem with another boat's HS1 transmission, which he told me was caused by overheating due to poor shaft alignment. You can check that by putting your transmissions in neutral and rotating the propshafts by hand. I'm told they should be pretty easy to rotate. Mine are not easy by any means but I can move them with both hands. If you can't budge it by hand, get your dealer to align the shafts.

Last time my boat was out of the water, my dealer pointed out that the port shaft was very close to the side of the shaft tunnel. He said it was aligned OK but if it had to be moved further over, it would be necessary to drill new mounting holes for the engine. This leads me to wonder if other Cape Dory 30's (and/or other power models) might have problems staying in alignment.

Has anyone else run into this? How much force does it take to move the propshafts by hand on other CD powerboats?

- Walt



bilofsky@toolworks.com

[Joe Merenda]

Has anyone else run into this? How much force does it take to move the propshafts by hand on other CD powerboats?

Walt,

The story behind my CD30 (hull #16) is as follows.

I: Starboard Engine
This shaft has always, from 0 hrs to 500 hrs, turned easily and smoothly. However, this side did experience the black, burnt transmission oil smell during its first 100 hrs or so. Now, at about 500 hrs, the oil continues to look and smell as I think it should, with no black or burnt properties. Only problem with this side has been a leaky stuffing box which was corrected using drip free shaft packing about 3 years ago.
II: Port Engine
I wish the story here was as straight forward. When the boat was new, the shaft turned very smoothly and easily. The transmission oil, however still exhibited the black, burnt smell up until it was rebuilt at about 200 hrs. Now at 500 hrs, the black, burnt smell no longer is present. Turning of the shaft, however, is very inconsistent. For most of this past season I could only turn the shaft with a pipe wrench! In fact at one point, I unbolted the couplings to check if the transmission itself could be binding, but it turned very easily. During the course of the season it has become progressively easier to turn the shaft, where now, I can turn it with only one hand. This trend, easy-hard-easy seems to be the only consistent thing about this side.
One thing I do to check for alignment is as follows. My wife runs the boat at about 3200 rpm while I'm down in the engine room with major ear protection! I lightly touch the shafts while they are turning and feel for any irregularities in the rotation. This is also a good time to check that the stuffing boxes are not set to tight, a slight drip and a cool touch are the correct signs.
Please let me if this helps and how it compares with your experiences.

Thanks

Joe



emerenda@nassau.cv.net