More Varnish & Sealers Questions

[Chuck]

Does anyone know anything about using a sealer prior to the varnish on our teak? A wooden boat builder in Maine, specifies it in his plans and instructions. ie: Interprime Wood Sealer or Pettit Clear Sealer. Here I am stripping down my toerails, again, after the varnish cracked at the verticle and horizonal joint, letting moisture in. And not from freezing tempertures.
Thanks,
Chuck
Gulf Coast Fleet

[rtbates]

Star Distributing http://www.star-distributing.comsells CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer) for that purpose. It's made from actual wood resin and is a modern miracle, IF you believe their literature. I do actually, BUT I won't be using it because I've toeally given up on any teak finish that attempts to apply a hard shell to protect the wood. They always fail sooner if not later. I've recently bought all the stuff to strip(Aqua Strip) and oil (TeaQua) to remove the Cetol from Seraph's wood. For me, no offence to you and all the other diehard varnishers out there, varnish is a fools game.

Good luck with your varnish

[John Danicic]

Randy:

Have you or for that matter anyone out there in
Cape Dory land tried using a heat gun to remove the Cetol? My spring project is to remove and recoat the toe rail's Cetol which I have neglected over the past few years.

As an experiment, I tried a heat gun on the boarding ladder's cetol coated, teak steps and found that it pealed off rather nicely with minimal scraping and sanding. I think that it would be less messy then using chemical strippers.

I really do prefer the look of a hard shell varnish but time and weather at our location does not even come close to guaranteeing the necessary string of nice, 68 + days for that ten coat look.

Sail on.

John Danicic
CD 36 - Mariah - #124
Lake Superior

[tartansailor]

Greetings,
There are 3 mechanisms in paint (or adhesive) bonding:
Covalent (Chemical)
Mechanical
VanDerWalls force.
The reason coatings generally fail on teak is that the oils in teak migrate into the coating, thus compromising the bond.
The same thing happens when trying to coat plasticized vinyl.
Well I'm taking a different tack.
I sanded the teak surface down to 220 grit and washed it with xylene, then coated it immediately with an exterior filler. The idea being that I hope to get a mechanical bond before the oils can get back to the surface.
Since the varnish in the filler is of the oxidative polymerization type, it cannot react with oils or solvents for that matter.
Time will tell how this will or will not work.
Dick[/u]

[Ed Haley]

Teak is worthy of a lot of work but no one wants to do all that work in vain. When you find your varnish peeling then it's a never-ending game of touchup until you sand down the wood again.

Teak is oily and the oil has to be removed before varnish (or just about anything else) adheres to the wood. Also, stains should be removed. After sanding with 100 grit paper, I apply a roughly 10% clorox/water mixture to the wood to bleach out stains. Maybe do it twice. After it dries I'll take acetone and apply it to the wood only (don't let it pool on fiberglass). This will dry the wood and remove some oil. Do it twice.

The wood's grain may have raised a bit so take 100 or 150 grit paper and lightly sand the wood a final time before applying varnish, cetol, or whatever (according to manufacturer's directions). Don't sand any finer than 150. That way the wood is left with attachment points (read tooth) for the finish.

After the first coat dries overnight, lightly sand down with 150 - 200 grit paper, wipe with a tack cloth and reapply finish. The number of coats of varnish will vary from 7 to 12. Don't put more than 3 coats of Cetol Marine or else you'll get the crappy-looking muddy brown in a few years. Put 2-3 coats Cetol Marine followed by 3 coats of Gloss or Cetol Light. Maybe you want Cetol light from the beginning. If you're not sure what you want, then use a scrap piece of teak to try out a combination.

Anywho, this technique (I use Cetol) has never peeled, cracked or faded. However, I put on 1 coat of Gloss in the spring and one in the fall. There are touchups where lines eroded the wood (near winches) or where wood was stepped on a few times.

I use varnish on another boat (Captain's Varnish) and nothing can compare to the beauty of that finish. But Cetol is a close second if it's applied right.

[tartansailor]

Hi Ed,
This is my first venture with teak.
I agree with you on the looks of a good varnish as being incomparable!
If my experiment above proves unsatisfactory, I am ripping out all the damn teak and going with African Mahogany, Khaya ivorensis and a good phenolic varnish.
Dick

[Shanna Paxton]

I am in the process of redoing all of my woodwork outside and varnishing the interior for the first time after getting tired of the cetol orange and the black fungus spots that keep coming after redoing the exterior woodwork. I have done the toe rail using the epoxy first and then 4 coats of captains varnish with the extra suncreen and it looks outstanding. I am planning to add a few more coats this spring but using the epoxy really decreased the number of coats I needed initially. The directions recommend one coat of epoxy and then applying the varnish before the epoxy has cured. In practice and after conversation with Steve the star distributor I am applying two coats of epoxy and sanding lightly after the 1st coat as the wood just soaks it up.

I had not intended to varnish the interior this winter, but I had the boat closed up with not enough ventilation, and ended up with a boat full of mold. After addressing the ventilation issue I decided that if I was going to have to bleach the wood I might as well start varnishing the interior which I have been putting off. Careful what you start! I have to say though she is looking beautiful and varnishing the interior has been much less painful than the exterior woodwork. Also for what is is worth I have been using a varnish brush roller for the large areas and then tipping the varnish and it looks great!

[Jerry Hammernik]

Shanna,
Who's epoxy did you use? Tell us more about the application (please).

[rtbates]

You wrote

I think that it would be less messy then using chemical strippers.

Yes a heat gun and a scrapper WILL work. Stripper is many times easier and here's the good part, Aqua Strip is 100% bio-degradable, won't harm gelcoat, and cleans up with water. So there is no concern about having to be neat in order to keep the gelcoat from being damaged. And after the finish is lifted you wash all the residue off with water. And it's about the same consistency as thick pancake batter so it stays put.

I was going to give it (Aqua Strip) a try out this Sunday, but since it was 80° and blowing a good 15kts I went sailing instead.

[Matt Cawthorne]

I struggled with fine holes in the finish ultimately causing failure in finishes that I have used. The problem being that I tend to do my brightwork in the spring when nighttime temperatures are very cool and the wood is heated as the day goes on. In this case little air bubbles form as the wood and semi-trapped air warm and expand creating pathways that water later gets back into. Depending on the shape and grain of the wood, it can be very minor or severe. After cleaning and preparing the wood, the first coat of whatever I use is put down during the afternoon. I coat a local area and then sand it with 150 or 180 grit paper, creating a paste that fills the ends of grain where the bubbles tend to form. I finish by wiping the surface with a squeegee. I use paper that is close to the color of the teak. I let that coat dry thoroughly and evaluate whether the process needs doing again. If so, I do. Only when I feel that the grain is well sealed do I start the process of building layers on. I have had much better luck with this process. Whatever you do, don't use clog-free sandpaper. It turns out that the stuff that many sandpaper companies use has a tallow base that makes for poor adhesion.

I recommend the following book, if you have not read it. BRIGHTWORK: THE ART OF FINISHING WOOD, by Rebecca Whitman.

Matt

[Shanna Paxton]

The epoxy that I used was CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer)from Star Distributing from http://www.star-distributing.com They are big fans of Bristol finish for the top coat which for me personally was a disaster but the CPES is great stuff! Make sure you purchase the right temperature formula.It is excellent stuff and is very easy to work with.

I also highly recommend their strippers. You need to put in on thick, but it works great so long as it doesn't dry out too fast.

"Aqua-Strip™ is a technically advanced, safer marine stripper designed to remove 10+ thick layers of marine anti-fouling, top-side and other paints and varnishes in one application. Aqua-Strip will not damage the gel coat, fiberglass or any surface. Aqua-Strip stays wet for extended periods of time to penetrate and lift bottom layers. It is environmentally safe, biodegradable, non-flammable, and contains no methylene chloride or caustic. Aqua-Strip™ is odor-free and can be easily cleaned up with water. As a paste it clings easily to vertical surfaces. For application, it can be brushed, rolled or sprayed. It requires no neutralization (neutral pH).
• Available in: 1 Quart, 1 Gallon, and 5 Gallon Containers."

Good luck with your brightwork!

[Chuck]

Thank you all for your input. But long term substantiated results would be helpful for us all. I am beginning to agree with Randy's first response, "a fool's game".
Chuck

[Tim Mertinooke]

One thing is for certain about this wonderful board, Tillers, Bronze, and varnish threads always lead to murky waters. To each his own gentlemen.

[Carter Brey]

Of course it's not practical. It's beautiful. So many lovely things in life are foolish, and they give us heartache and we go back for more. I wouldn't have it any other way.

CB

[winthrop fisher]