durable finish for sole?

chase · Post by **chase** » Jan 15th, '06, 22:01

On to the next project. I just wrapped up a bunch or projects last week and now I need to deal with the cabin sole. The sole has another life left if I protect it now. After searching the archives, it seems that epoxy would be a good choice with a few coats of varnish on top. Here's what I was thinking about:

1) Sand carefully. L. DeMers says the floor veneer is thin. I was happy to find the other veneer in galley walls, etc. to be nice and thick. Is the factory coating for the sole varnish or polyester resin or something? It is very hard and has served well for 25 years.

2) Use West System with 207 hardener on super clean floor on a good hay cutting day, nice and dry high press system with decent temps. Apply product to just slightly above where surface transitions to vertical, and varnish those surfaces.

Any other thoughts on this one or another system that folks are happy with? If I do it right his time I won't have to replace the whole deal. Aside from what West System will tell me ( they seems to have really good product info), any other tips on application methods, how much product for coverage, etc. would be great.

Thanks,

Chase

Rollergirl · Post by **Rollergirl** » Jan 15th, '06, 22:50

On the old Cruising World website (5 years ago, aprox) the was a series of threads about this subject, and the best-accepted advise was to use a hi-tech varnish-like product designed for gym floors. Apparently, as I remember it, the gym stuff was a matte finish with enough tooth to retain some traction after sweat, thrown soda/beer and high humidity conspired to down the players. Another of the advantages was it's ability to keep a finish on for a full season. Sounded good to me. Can't remember the name of the product, if I ever knew it.
Archives there seem to be unsearchable now; our loss. If you ever get over there, Brian Wolshein (sp?) was a name i remember from that discussion, and exceptionally knowledgable & experienced.
Of course, with a 1/2" layer of real teak & holly sole, (with the raised holly interleaves) you won't need a finish.
After all, were all losing height as we age anyway, right?

Good luck

Bill

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Jan 15th, '06, 23:08

Maybe it was Gym-Seal?

Another way to treat sole is with tartar sauce and a spritz of lemon, with chips on the side.

O J

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Jan 16th, '06, 00:18

Refinishing the sole is on my list of projects to do this summer. I intend to use a finish called "Ultimate Sole" which a few friends of mine have used and rave about. Its a synthetic varnish with very good nonskid properties. I would not be suprised to find that its the exact same stuff used on gym floors rebranded for "marine" use at 10 times the price.

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Jan 16th, '06, 01:01

Not too long ago I used Gym-Seal to finish oak floors. I think that maybe it was a McClosky product. It wasn't water based. You used paint thinner to clean up after use. Lately I've been using Min-Wax polyurethane products instead of varnish type products. I generally buy the finishes in an Ace Home Center locally.

Recently, I tried a new type of finish. I wanted to top coat an existing floor that had previously been coated with a paint thinner type polyurethane finish. I was told to try a new Min-Wax water based poly finish. It was odorless and would dry in a half an hour so as to apply a second coat shortly after the first.

What a mistake that was. The water based finish puddled up on the mineral spirit based previous coats and left a splotchy finish. It seemed that the water based finish wasn't compatible with the mineral spirit based previous coats. It didn't seem to bond. Maybe if the floor was sanded down to bare wood, the water based finish might be very good and accept a second and third coat. It was a costly and time consuming mistake.

To speed up the application, I tried to roll the finish on. I found that rolling produced hundreds of bubbles which I had to brush out so I finished the job with a good, wide, bristle brush. I tried a foam brush for cutting in, with so-so results.

Maybe on a small area like the sole of a boat, a brush job would go quickly. Just watch out for fumes and don't paint yourself into a corner. The sole to be finished must be oil and wax free.

Think spring,
O J

Neil Gordon · Post by **Neil Gordon** » Jan 16th, '06, 06:09

Oswego John wrote:Another way to treat sole is with tartar sauce and a spritz of lemon, with chips on the side.

Did you somehow miss the warning about unworthiness in posts, topic drift and the like? This is supposed to be a serious support forum. Besides, you beat me to it.

Dick Barthel · Post by **Dick Barthel** » Jan 16th, '06, 07:14

After researching this myself several years ago, I spoke to an old salt in our yard who told me to just use regular polyurethene for floors. I'm two years in and she looks the same as the day I applied it. And just like a floor, every few years just lightly sand and apply a couple more coats.

Dick

Clay Stalker · Post by **Clay Stalker** » Jan 16th, '06, 09:10

Ditto

Steve Laume · Post by **Steve Laume** » Jan 16th, '06, 10:02

I am planning the cabin sole finishing this winter. I experimented last year with the steps, shower grate and access hatches. After cleaning and sanding then also removing a little material around the hatch edges to ensure a good fit I went the epoxy route. I figured this would be a safe option where UV rays would never have a chance to cloud the finish. What I found is that the epoxy wanted to be quite thin. This was accomplished by warming the epoxy prior tho application. It went on very well with a cheap brush and I used two thin coats to build up a base sanded in between to flatten and level everything. I applied a final coat of satin varnish just to break the gloss. I have found with finishing other things you get better clarity if you build the finish with gloss products and just use the stain for the final coat. I did notice that It was harder to dry the sole as there is no absorbtion once you put a finish on it. I was hard to tell if traction would become a problem but I do remember those days as a youth sliding on a hard wood floor. I non skid gym type finish may be a better final finish coat. As for water based finishes, I think water is great for drinking and sailing on but makes a lousy vehicle for finish material. I have toyed with it in a few different applications and have never been happy with it. Everyone keeps telling me that it is getting better over the years. When someone starts to say it is much better than the old solvent based finishes I might consider trying it on my boat. Just another of my not so humble personal opinions I guess. The thing that I worry about is any moisture the enters the plywood from the unfinished side. It seems like there is very little air movement under there and nothing will be able to evaporate from above. On the positive side it will stay much dryer from above. Above all else it sure does look pretty when you lay the finish on and bring out the full beauty and luster the wood provides. When anyone has been taking up a delaminated sole has the problem originated in the upper or lower layers of the plys? Ideally you would encapsulate the entire sole and particularly the end grain. Bring on the canister masks, were going to shine up the sole, Steve.

Ron M. · Post by **Ron M.** » Jan 16th, '06, 10:26

I'm not sure what you will gain using epoxy under your sole finish, you have to maintain the finish.A few years ago I refinished my sole with about 8-10 coats of Mix Wax Helmsmen poly. and have excellent results.Many thin coats are preferable to a few thick ones.Thin the first coat 15-20 % and apply succeeding coats as each is dry.One of those white poly 1" rollers will get the material on quickly- then tip it out with a good bristle brush.When I was restoring period homes years ago we finished sanded pine floors with 2-3 coats gloss polyurethane and topcoated with 2 coats mat or satin.It produced a finish that is almost 3 dimensional.Quite pleasing.My experience is never ever use water based finish or contact cement on any project you want to last--wear a respirator and use the stinky stuff.
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marka · Post by **marka** » Jan 16th, '06, 12:30

when I rebuilt Lindas Jean's sole (solid mahogany & holly) I used lemon oil for the first few coats then finished with satin poly. Wood (particularly solid wood) moves with changes in humidity and I wanted something that would move with it and would be easy to refinish if I needed to. Besides, I'm cheap and so is poly. Two years into it and it still looks great.

chase · Post by **chase** » Jan 16th, '06, 13:03

Steve, I agree on the water-based stuff. Water based poly goes on easy and looks pretty good, at least on the thirty year old red oak on my floor at home. It does not resist water very well. The finish clouds whenever water sits for a little while, like around a houseplant. It sure is easy to work with. I wear a respirator at work A LOT and so it is nice to work with a product that doesn't require it.

Ron, perhaps there is no advantage to epoxy over a traditional polyurethane - I'm curious to hear more input about it from those that have done it. If I could get another 25 years out of MinWax
helmsman, I'd do it, because I have a gallon. It seems that epoxy would be good for creating a total encapsulation around all the crevices and corners where water collects and you see the first signs of delam.

I think both of you (Dick and Clay, too) suggested a couple of satin coats on top of a few coats of gloss. That sounds good. Maintenance would be a scuff and go every third year or so?

OJ, what's the difference between a product like minwax spar urethane and varnish from the boat store? I just used some epiphanes rubbed effect in the galley, it looks nice. Perhaps I'd be just as happy with something from the hardware store. I'm also going to research the gym floor products; if I learn anything useful I'll pass it along.

Chase

Oswego John · Post by **Oswego John** » Jan 16th, '06, 15:05

farmerchase wrote:StWater based poly goes on easy and looks pretty good, at least on the thirty year old red oak on my floor at home. It does not resist water very well. The finish clouds whenever water sits for a little while, like around a houseplant. It sure is easy to work with. I wear a respirator at work A LOT and so it is nice to work with a product that doesn't require it.

Ron, perhaps there is no advantage to epoxy over a traditional polyurethane - I'm curious to hear more input about it from those that have done it. If I could get another 25 years out of MinWax
helmsman, I'd do it, because I have a gallon. It seems that epoxy would be good for creating a total encapsulation around all the crevices and corners where water collects and you see the first signs of delam.

I think both of you (Dick and Clay, too) suggested a couple of satin coats on top of a few coats of gloss. That sounds good. Meve, I agree on the water-based stuff. aintenance would be a scuff and go every third year or so?

OJ, what's the difference between a product like minwax spar urethane and varnish from the boat store? I just used some epiphanes rubbed effect in the galley, it looks nice. Perhaps I'd be just as happy with something from the hardware store. I'm also going to research the gym floor products; if I learn anything useful I'll pass it along.

Chase

Chase,

It's my opinion that anything that you buy from the marine supplier, the price is a lot higher than it is in a hardware store or a home center. Whether to use poly or traditional varnish is purely a personal choice. It is my feeling that poly is not only less expensive, it seems to be harder and more durable than varnish, especially in high traffic areas.

I find that a commercial home center such as Lowes, Ace or Home Depot carries a wider variety than some marine suppliers. As to Epiphanes varnish, I regard it to be a superior product and that if you or anyone else already has some, use it. Done right, it produces excellent results.

Think spring,
O J

Ron M. · Post by **Ron M.** » Jan 16th, '06, 17:03

Chase,
I suppose if you are installing a new sole or have the existing one up and you epoxied the entire thing; top - bottom and all edges it may be of some benefit.If not some flexing will always occur that will crack the epoxy along the perimeter and allow moisture in and your finish will cloud and peel at that location initially.
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