I’ve made two decisions this summer - to keep Dream Weaver for the long haul and to repower. An earlier Warren Kaplan thread on repowering and the costs involved is sobering to say the least but I’m rationalizing that this route is a lot cheaper than if I had decided to get a bigger boat. I’m going to do a lot of the “grunt” work myself with my yard mechanics advising and doing the more difficult jobs.
I’m certain to have many questions for the board as the project progresses but for now I’d just like to decide which engine it use.
The CD 25D weighs less than 5500lbs empty. The current engine is a Yanmar 1GM that develops 7.5 hp and weighs about 150 lbs. It moves DW at near hull speed in benign conditions but as many have said before, in a seaway or against a strong current, a little more hp would be nice.
I think the easiest and cheapest route would be to replace my current engine with a Yanmar 1 GM 10. That would give a minimum hp boast (9 hp) but it would fit right in. According to Boat Works magazine, the typical price for this engine would be $3300.
The smallest 2 cylinder Yanmar is a the 14 hp 2YM15. But it weighs 227 lbs and is considerably larger than the 1 GM and I’m sure would require modifying the mounting bed ($$$). The engine itself goes for around $5500. Given the size, weight and the cost of modification, this doesn’t seem like an attractive choice.
My yard is a dealer for Beta Marine which is a Kubota diesel. The smallest power plants are the Beta 10 and BZ482 which are two cylinders that develop 10 and 13.5 hp from the same block. They weigh 183 lbs and 196 lbs and are actually smaller in size then the 1 GM, but I assume some mounting bed modification may be necessary. They cost $5800 and $6500.
Those engines seem to be the most obvious choices. I’d appreciate any feedback or advice.
Thanks,
Dick
Repowering a 25D
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Dick Barthel
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 10:29
- Location: Dream Weaver, CD25D, Noank, CT
If I were you
If I were you I'd definetely go with the 1GM10. As it should go in very easy. AND the least weight you add to the stern the better. My 1GM7.5 powers Serpah to over 6kts at 3k. Keep the bottom as clean as humanly possible. I've never owned a boat that had such a change in speed between a fouled and cleaned bottom. All that wetted surface I suppose. I pick up 1-1.5 knots every spring after going all winter without scrubbing. This winter I'll probably just bite the bullet and don the wetsuit and jump in. Did I mention that I absolutely HATE cold water. It gets down to 65 in mid winter!
Randy 25D Seraph #161
Randy 25D Seraph #161
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
Repowering a 25D
Hi Dick,
Well, here's my 2¢ worth.
If you know your boat, enjoy your boat and your boat satisfies your needs, then I think that you made a wise decision to stay with Dream Weaver. By that one decision, you have overcome more than half of the remaining decisions.
For the moment, I have put myself in your situation and tried to figure out what the best path of action might be. In order to arrive at a solution, I asked myself certain questions that should be answered with candor. Maybe, the answers to the same questions might be helpful to your choice. The following questions are not in any specific analytical order and I'm sure that other questions could be added to the list. Here they are:
Why do you want to repower? Do you feel that your present engine is underpowered for your situation? Do you feel that it is unsafe? Do you have any suspicious feelings in regard to the performance and reliability of your engine? Why do you feel it is time to repower?
What is the minimum horse power that you would feel comfortable with?
Do you have any data to show, or do you feel that the engine has less power now than that it had in the past?
What amount does your budget allow for the repower?
There are many things that must be considered, weight and footprint being important. Will your tranny, shaft and wheel be compatible with your engine of choice?
You mentioned the cost of several engines. Do the figures include other costs, i. e. taxes, delivery, etc?
Other than purchase price, have you been given any ballpark figures as to labor?
Dick, you mentioned two things that, in my mind, you should investigate farther.
#1 - Have you considered having your present engine rebuilt? Earlier, I alluded to maybe your engine doesn't seem to have the power that it once had. Possibly, the compression isn't what it used to be.
#2 - You stated that the same Kubota block comes in a choice of two HPs. A boatyard that is a dealer for another engine might not be the place to ask technical questions concerning your Yanmar engine. Not that they might not be competent, but maybe biased a bit.
You might consider asking questions from a RELIABLE Yanmar source in regard to the maximum, safe, allowable limits to rebore your engine. I don't know if your particular engine has valves or ports. If the former, a new valve job and rings might increase compression and HP to satisfy your needs.
Best regards and
good luck on your decision,
O J
Well, here's my 2¢ worth.
If you know your boat, enjoy your boat and your boat satisfies your needs, then I think that you made a wise decision to stay with Dream Weaver. By that one decision, you have overcome more than half of the remaining decisions.
For the moment, I have put myself in your situation and tried to figure out what the best path of action might be. In order to arrive at a solution, I asked myself certain questions that should be answered with candor. Maybe, the answers to the same questions might be helpful to your choice. The following questions are not in any specific analytical order and I'm sure that other questions could be added to the list. Here they are:
Why do you want to repower? Do you feel that your present engine is underpowered for your situation? Do you feel that it is unsafe? Do you have any suspicious feelings in regard to the performance and reliability of your engine? Why do you feel it is time to repower?
What is the minimum horse power that you would feel comfortable with?
Do you have any data to show, or do you feel that the engine has less power now than that it had in the past?
What amount does your budget allow for the repower?
There are many things that must be considered, weight and footprint being important. Will your tranny, shaft and wheel be compatible with your engine of choice?
You mentioned the cost of several engines. Do the figures include other costs, i. e. taxes, delivery, etc?
Other than purchase price, have you been given any ballpark figures as to labor?
Dick, you mentioned two things that, in my mind, you should investigate farther.
#1 - Have you considered having your present engine rebuilt? Earlier, I alluded to maybe your engine doesn't seem to have the power that it once had. Possibly, the compression isn't what it used to be.
#2 - You stated that the same Kubota block comes in a choice of two HPs. A boatyard that is a dealer for another engine might not be the place to ask technical questions concerning your Yanmar engine. Not that they might not be competent, but maybe biased a bit.
You might consider asking questions from a RELIABLE Yanmar source in regard to the maximum, safe, allowable limits to rebore your engine. I don't know if your particular engine has valves or ports. If the former, a new valve job and rings might increase compression and HP to satisfy your needs.
Best regards and
good luck on your decision,
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
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Ray Garcia
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Apr 27th, '05, 22:08
- Location: 1981 CD27 #212 "Spirit" Huntington, NY
- Contact:
I have a 1981 CD27 I just purchased this past spring. It has the original 1 cyl. Yanmar. That would make it 24 years old. It still runs perfectly. Though I am no professional mechanic I replace the filters, use the engine sensibly, and maintain it best I can. I've been in the same situation, contemplating a replacement for the anemic horsepower. After reading the posts and researching the specs I drawn this conclusion.
As you know in a sailboat, weight is your enemy. It does not make enough sense to me to replace the motor with a 100lb or more heavier one and spend all that money to increase the horsepower. I have motored against a current and against a stiff breeze with waves. It's a slow go at best. But really how much faster are you going to go anyway? I've either waited for the current to go fair or raise the sail. I plan on running the motor until I can no longer afford the repair and replace it with a new 1 cyl. Yanmar 10. One other great plus is the the 1 cyl. raw water cooled engine is plain vanilla simple!
One interesting note: I know I am not the only one but, I have run aground on the soft sands of the Great South Bay in New York. The rudder touches first along what I would figure is the back quarter of the keel. Everytime I was able to get off by sending my self and crew forward to the bow. I can not imagine adding anymore weight aft. It has got to affect not only the way she sails but might cause more damage in a severe grounding by making her squat even more.
This is just my opinion. I'm no expert.
As you know in a sailboat, weight is your enemy. It does not make enough sense to me to replace the motor with a 100lb or more heavier one and spend all that money to increase the horsepower. I have motored against a current and against a stiff breeze with waves. It's a slow go at best. But really how much faster are you going to go anyway? I've either waited for the current to go fair or raise the sail. I plan on running the motor until I can no longer afford the repair and replace it with a new 1 cyl. Yanmar 10. One other great plus is the the 1 cyl. raw water cooled engine is plain vanilla simple!
One interesting note: I know I am not the only one but, I have run aground on the soft sands of the Great South Bay in New York. The rudder touches first along what I would figure is the back quarter of the keel. Everytime I was able to get off by sending my self and crew forward to the bow. I can not imagine adding anymore weight aft. It has got to affect not only the way she sails but might cause more damage in a severe grounding by making her squat even more.
This is just my opinion. I'm no expert.
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fenixrises
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Feb 13th, '05, 08:01
- Location: SunShine S2 11c
- Contact:
Hi Dick,
One thing you might consider is is pulling the reduction gear and having it re-geared.
On my last boat I had a Yanmar 2 GM rated at 16hp. My boat was 31' and in cruising trim about 14,000 lbs. Yanmar offered a standard 3.25:1 reduction ratio for this engine. With it I was able to swing a 16"d X 10"p prop. This would easily push the boat in a flat calm at 4 knots at 1,600 rpm and delivered great fuel economy, one quart / hour. On the other hand it had sufficent power to push the boat at 5+ knots into 20 knot tradewinds and 6'-8' seas.
Unfortunately many production boats have only 2:1 reduction gears, while thier engines can usally turn 2,600-3,400 RPM. If the prop shaft turns over 1,000 RPM the prop starts cavitating.
For a displacement boat it is much better to turn a big prop slow than a small prop fast. With a change in the reduction ratio you could possibly increase your prop diameter(provided adequate tip clearence) and certainly the pitch to give you more punch. Most importantly you can better utilize the power curve and range of the engine.
Most bronze props can be re-pitched 2"-3" with no problem.
If the existing engine is sound it would be far less costly to change the reduction ration and re-pitch the existing prop than installing a new engine.
Take care,
Fred B.
One thing you might consider is is pulling the reduction gear and having it re-geared.
On my last boat I had a Yanmar 2 GM rated at 16hp. My boat was 31' and in cruising trim about 14,000 lbs. Yanmar offered a standard 3.25:1 reduction ratio for this engine. With it I was able to swing a 16"d X 10"p prop. This would easily push the boat in a flat calm at 4 knots at 1,600 rpm and delivered great fuel economy, one quart / hour. On the other hand it had sufficent power to push the boat at 5+ knots into 20 knot tradewinds and 6'-8' seas.
Unfortunately many production boats have only 2:1 reduction gears, while thier engines can usally turn 2,600-3,400 RPM. If the prop shaft turns over 1,000 RPM the prop starts cavitating.
For a displacement boat it is much better to turn a big prop slow than a small prop fast. With a change in the reduction ratio you could possibly increase your prop diameter(provided adequate tip clearence) and certainly the pitch to give you more punch. Most importantly you can better utilize the power curve and range of the engine.
Most bronze props can be re-pitched 2"-3" with no problem.
If the existing engine is sound it would be far less costly to change the reduction ration and re-pitch the existing prop than installing a new engine.
Take care,
Fred B.
You should always have an odd number of holes in your boat!
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Neil Gordon
- Posts: 4367
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 17:25
- Location: s/v LIQUIDITY, CD28. We sail from Marina Bay on Boston Harbor. Try us on channel 9.
- Contact:
We've seen the repower and/or bigger prop question on here lots of times. Before doing either, I'd define the problem and see whether the expense/benefit equation really made sense.Ray wrote:I have motored against a current and against a stiff breeze with waves. It's a slow go at best.
If with no breeze, you can get to hull speed, you have all the power you need. If the current is against you, more power still won't get you beyond hull speed. If current isn't an issue, maybe you don't need to get to hull speed, either.
With breeze, it becomes harder to go right into wind and waves and you need more power to do it. OTOH, if you head off the wind enough for the main to draw, you can get quite a boost. How often are you faced with conditions that won't let you get to where you are going?
I'm not saying that it's not time to repower... just that if the engine that's there is reliable, consider what the repowering $$$ actually buys you.
Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167
Boston, MA
CDSOA member #698
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Clay Stalker
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 12:07
- Location: 17' Town Class Sloop
Repowering Dream Weaver
Having spent some quality time on Dream Weaver, I would offer the following comments:
I think you have adequate power for what you typically do, and I agree with Ray that timing your cruises to take wind and tides into consideration is the best bet...this is what I do with Yankee Lady, a 10,000 lb. boat with a 13HP engine.
However, 2 or 3 more HP would make a difference in a boat of this displacement, but I'm not sure enough to warrant the cost (only you can decide this). If you do decide to repower, my vote would be for the Yanmar 1GM10, a tough, fairly priced motor that will pop right in....redoing beds runs into serious money in many cases.
And finally, Dream Weaver is a gem, and I congratulate you on your decision....you have made a fine choice. She is a find boat with a fine skipper!
Clay Stalker
I think you have adequate power for what you typically do, and I agree with Ray that timing your cruises to take wind and tides into consideration is the best bet...this is what I do with Yankee Lady, a 10,000 lb. boat with a 13HP engine.
However, 2 or 3 more HP would make a difference in a boat of this displacement, but I'm not sure enough to warrant the cost (only you can decide this). If you do decide to repower, my vote would be for the Yanmar 1GM10, a tough, fairly priced motor that will pop right in....redoing beds runs into serious money in many cases.
And finally, Dream Weaver is a gem, and I congratulate you on your decision....you have made a fine choice. She is a find boat with a fine skipper!
Clay Stalker
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Bill Chapple
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 10:15
- Location: CD 27 Pagoo
Dick, I am in the process of repowering my CD27 in Noank Village Boatyard. You might check the thread "repowering a CD27" on the Web site. In my case the Yanmar YSM had a corroded governor and would no longer start; rebuilding a 30 year old engine did not seem feasible. Pagoo is out of the water and her old engine has been removed, so you might give Ron and Drew and call and they can show you the Beta Marine 13.5 hp engine they will be putting in.
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Bill Goldsmith
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 08:47
- Location: CD 32
One option is a rebuild. If you are generally satisfied with the engine's power range, and your motivation is that theengine is showing its age (blow-by, oil leaks, etc) can you extend its life with a rebuild?
The argument against a rebuid of a small engine is that the cost of the rebuild will be about half the cost of the new engine (or more). That starts to sound like a repower would be better in the long haul. If you went with the updated version of the same engine, you can definitely do it yourself with a handy friend or two for the price of a couple of six-packs and some great experience. After pulling and reinstalling Loonsong's beast to change mounts, repaint, replace exhaust manifold and rebuild exhaust riser I feel like I know the boat 200% better!
SO if you're generally happy with the power range, I would strongly consider another 1GM, enjoy the extra output, and save a whole bunch of boat units.
The argument against a rebuid of a small engine is that the cost of the rebuild will be about half the cost of the new engine (or more). That starts to sound like a repower would be better in the long haul. If you went with the updated version of the same engine, you can definitely do it yourself with a handy friend or two for the price of a couple of six-packs and some great experience. After pulling and reinstalling Loonsong's beast to change mounts, repaint, replace exhaust manifold and rebuild exhaust riser I feel like I know the boat 200% better!
SO if you're generally happy with the power range, I would strongly consider another 1GM, enjoy the extra output, and save a whole bunch of boat units.
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Oswego John
- Posts: 3535
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 20:42
- Location: '66 Typhoon "Grace", Hull # 42, Schooner "Ontario", CD 85D Hull #1
REPOWERING A 25D
Hi Bill G.,
If you check out my previous post on this subject, #1 and #2 toward the end of the post, you will see that a rebuild is one of the ideas that I had proposed early on.
I guess my choice of words didn't express my thoughts very clearly, as stated in #2. Let me try to explain my ideas in a different way.
Dick mentions that the present 1 GM, 7 1/2 HP engine moves DW at near hull speed. He also stated that a little more HP would be nice. He also said that the Beta 10 @ 10HP and the B2 482 @ 13.5 HP both use the same Kubota block.
Is it possible or does anyone know if the Yanmar 1 GM and the Yanmar 1 GM 10 both share the same block?
When the same block can produce different HPs, the visual, external appearance of the block is usually the same. The difference of the two horsepowers comes from internal changes. Because the one cylinder engine is small in comparison to a stronger multi cylindered engine, not many things can be done to raise the HP significantly. Generally the bore and stroke are modified as well as the compression ratio.
What I was driving at is if Dick or anyone else rebuilt his engine, with a few modifications in the above mentioned areas within safe engine specs as well as a valve job, he very well could have a good, new, tight, rebuilt engine with increased HP bordering that of the Y 1 GM 10.
With the help of a knowledgeable friend, the job wouldn't be as complicated as it would seem at first thought. The engine isn't that heavy that it couldn't be manhandled. Stripped down and then brought to a machine shop, they would boil out the block. A reputable shop would rebore to specs or larger and machine grind and fit the valve system. If you want, they will fit and assemble all bearings for you. New gaskets would stop those pesky oil leaks. You can do as much or as little reassembly as you want or feel qualified to.
This job isn't beyond the abilities of the average person. It isn't to be tackled by someone who refuses to prepare himself with references and questions beforehand. Special tools that will be needed are rented out by most red front, auto supply stores.
Now, wouldn't that be a nice winter project for someone to tackle?
O J
If you check out my previous post on this subject, #1 and #2 toward the end of the post, you will see that a rebuild is one of the ideas that I had proposed early on.
I guess my choice of words didn't express my thoughts very clearly, as stated in #2. Let me try to explain my ideas in a different way.
Dick mentions that the present 1 GM, 7 1/2 HP engine moves DW at near hull speed. He also stated that a little more HP would be nice. He also said that the Beta 10 @ 10HP and the B2 482 @ 13.5 HP both use the same Kubota block.
Is it possible or does anyone know if the Yanmar 1 GM and the Yanmar 1 GM 10 both share the same block?
When the same block can produce different HPs, the visual, external appearance of the block is usually the same. The difference of the two horsepowers comes from internal changes. Because the one cylinder engine is small in comparison to a stronger multi cylindered engine, not many things can be done to raise the HP significantly. Generally the bore and stroke are modified as well as the compression ratio.
What I was driving at is if Dick or anyone else rebuilt his engine, with a few modifications in the above mentioned areas within safe engine specs as well as a valve job, he very well could have a good, new, tight, rebuilt engine with increased HP bordering that of the Y 1 GM 10.
With the help of a knowledgeable friend, the job wouldn't be as complicated as it would seem at first thought. The engine isn't that heavy that it couldn't be manhandled. Stripped down and then brought to a machine shop, they would boil out the block. A reputable shop would rebore to specs or larger and machine grind and fit the valve system. If you want, they will fit and assemble all bearings for you. New gaskets would stop those pesky oil leaks. You can do as much or as little reassembly as you want or feel qualified to.
This job isn't beyond the abilities of the average person. It isn't to be tackled by someone who refuses to prepare himself with references and questions beforehand. Special tools that will be needed are rented out by most red front, auto supply stores.
Now, wouldn't that be a nice winter project for someone to tackle?
O J
"If I rest, I rust"
Voting Member #490
Voting Member #490
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Bill Goldsmith
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Feb 7th, '05, 08:47
- Location: CD 32
Hi John from Oswego!
I actually replied after only reading Dick's post before reading any of the other replies (mistake #1!)
I hear what you are saying about the rebuild, partially farmed out to a shop and partially DIY. That could certainly save mucho bucks.
I guess the thrust of my comments was that the cost of rebuilding a smaller diesel is going to be a bigger proportion of the cost of a brand new one than the cost of rebuilding a bigger engine bears to the cost of a brand new big engine. Of course, doing as much yourself as possible brings that cost down considerably, as you state. Although not a rebuild, I saved huge dollars and learned alot by pulling and reinstalling my W21a with the help of my buddy Mark Y (CD27 Second Chance).
Of course, Dick's posting indicates that he has already decided to repower--all this talk about rebuilding is just nudging him, right?
The biggest question here is whether the 1GM 10 is a drop-in replacement. And the answers to the other questions you raised would be major factors in the decision.
From my perspective, I am humbled by the fact that Westerbeke has orphaned the W21a--there is no drop-in replacement. Although mine has been well-maintained and is running like a top, at some point I'll have to address the issue of a rebuild. Unfortunately the cylinder heads are no longer available at all, so any rebuild assumes the head is good. Since there is no drop-in replacement, for me any repower would likely involve significant work on the mounting bed as wellas the cost of a new engine. A new diesel for Loonsong would cost about $6k to $7K plus tax/shipping and installation. So I am being religious with PM on this one, and so far so good. When I read about the potential to drop in a brand new engine that itself is not extremely pricey (about $3K) and nominal install costs, it looks like a no-brainer to me. We all see the world through our own lenses!
I actually replied after only reading Dick's post before reading any of the other replies (mistake #1!)
I hear what you are saying about the rebuild, partially farmed out to a shop and partially DIY. That could certainly save mucho bucks.
I guess the thrust of my comments was that the cost of rebuilding a smaller diesel is going to be a bigger proportion of the cost of a brand new one than the cost of rebuilding a bigger engine bears to the cost of a brand new big engine. Of course, doing as much yourself as possible brings that cost down considerably, as you state. Although not a rebuild, I saved huge dollars and learned alot by pulling and reinstalling my W21a with the help of my buddy Mark Y (CD27 Second Chance).
Of course, Dick's posting indicates that he has already decided to repower--all this talk about rebuilding is just nudging him, right?
The biggest question here is whether the 1GM 10 is a drop-in replacement. And the answers to the other questions you raised would be major factors in the decision.
From my perspective, I am humbled by the fact that Westerbeke has orphaned the W21a--there is no drop-in replacement. Although mine has been well-maintained and is running like a top, at some point I'll have to address the issue of a rebuild. Unfortunately the cylinder heads are no longer available at all, so any rebuild assumes the head is good. Since there is no drop-in replacement, for me any repower would likely involve significant work on the mounting bed as wellas the cost of a new engine. A new diesel for Loonsong would cost about $6k to $7K plus tax/shipping and installation. So I am being religious with PM on this one, and so far so good. When I read about the potential to drop in a brand new engine that itself is not extremely pricey (about $3K) and nominal install costs, it looks like a no-brainer to me. We all see the world through our own lenses!
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ddsailor25
repower
Dick,
We repowered our boat this past spring. Our boat displaces about 9000lbs and we decided to go with a beta marine diesel. You shouldn't have to worry too much about engine bed modification being that the bed should be a standard measurement acrose. If you don't then beta does have a couple different options. We had more work to do then you'll have because we were replacing an A4, so we did new fuel tank, filters, water strainer, the hole works.
Anyways, the 13.5 beta pushes our boat along at hull speed at 3/4 thottle. At full throttle we can make 6.8 knots! The best part is we burn about a quart an hour at crusing speed! If you went with the 10hp you would be under that. We can power for three days straight without pulling into port for fuel. We went also with a three bladed, 12x8" prop. It's much smoother then a two bladed because you don't get void when the prop is vertical in line with the hull.
If you have any questions please feel free to email me at ddsailor25@yahoo.com
Dave
We repowered our boat this past spring. Our boat displaces about 9000lbs and we decided to go with a beta marine diesel. You shouldn't have to worry too much about engine bed modification being that the bed should be a standard measurement acrose. If you don't then beta does have a couple different options. We had more work to do then you'll have because we were replacing an A4, so we did new fuel tank, filters, water strainer, the hole works.
Anyways, the 13.5 beta pushes our boat along at hull speed at 3/4 thottle. At full throttle we can make 6.8 knots! The best part is we burn about a quart an hour at crusing speed! If you went with the 10hp you would be under that. We can power for three days straight without pulling into port for fuel. We went also with a three bladed, 12x8" prop. It's much smoother then a two bladed because you don't get void when the prop is vertical in line with the hull.
If you have any questions please feel free to email me at ddsailor25@yahoo.com
Dave
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Dick Barthel
- Posts: 901
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 10:29
- Location: Dream Weaver, CD25D, Noank, CT
My response to all and thanks!
I’ve decided to take time to respond carefully because of all the thoughtful responses. I suspect my feelings and circumstances are shared by many on our board to varying degrees and you guys are really helping me make the right decision. And in the end we might end up with a good thread that will document with some specifics the do’s and don’t of repowering a 25D. Given the ages of the 180 or so 25Ds out there, this thread might have some utility in the future.
After only one day of posts and talking back and forth with my mechanic, the clear choice is the 1 GM 10 or the Beta 10. I don’t think I need the added cost and weight of the Beta 13.5 or the larger Yanmar.
Why Do It? John is right, I have already made up my mind (that is unless the final cost estimate turns out to be ridiculous). First to jddj and others searching for reasons to spend $$$ on our Cape Dory.
My thinking: I am getting more and more confident and wanting to go farther from home (though not like our own Winthrop who I hear has taken Typhoons across oceans). I’m 57 years old and I have found three or four regular sailing mates (Clay Stalker and Peter Drake of this board included) that go on cruises with me but I am slowly drawing my wife into the mix. Once I convince her of my competence at the helm she has agreed to travel the world with me, at least as far as Long Island Sound. That's a work in progress. Currently, she trusts me to row out to the boat and to spend time at the mooring.
The problem as I see it with a 20 + year old motor is reliability. DW’s 1 GM runs like an ox (as Clay will attest) but you are forever replacing things that break. Just a few actual examples for emphasis: fuel pump, rebuilt fuel injector, new cylinder head and my most recent experience, an engine control panel. I have spent considerable sums keeping the old 1 GM humming and I see no end in sight. The list of parts that fail and cause problems based on posts to this board seems endless: exhaust mixing elbow, starter, ignition parts, etc. And from what I’ve heard it’s likely to be the raw-water cooling system that eventually will kill the 1 GM and not its internal parts. Mine has been operating in salt water for all of it’s 21 years.
My current theory is that what breaks will increase in cost to repair in a direct relationship to distance away from home. I can change an impeller and bleed the engine but I’m no Mike Ritenour or Leo MacDonald when it comes to changing things. And if anything of consequence breaks while Ann is on board that will not be a good thing. So you can see jddj, I’m really doing all this for my wife!
Seriously though and honestly, I think I’m rewarding (or maybe consoling) myself for deciding not to spend a fortune “moving up” where you end up with a bigger more costly boat that also has “issues” and is in line for endless “upgrades.” And I’ve been in boating long enough to realize the bigger the boat the more the parts cost. So I’ve reached a decision to keep Dream Weaver and make her perfect (like my wife).
I also want the peace of mind of a more reliable auxiliary propulsion system. And finally, one of my hobbies when I retire in a few years is to continue to bring Dream Weaver closer to a pristine state. I’m already getting excited with thoughts of what I might do to the engine compartment with no engine in it. (I know that sounds strange and an appropriate comment might be “you need to get a life” but I am one who really enjoys fussing with my boat almost as much as sailing, e.g., I varnish rather than use Cetol).
The bottom line to all this is that it is a very individual decision for each of us. I think if I could fix things like Leo or Mike (or Tod Mills for that matter) I might feel differently.
Rebuild? John, it is my understanding that a 1 GM cannot be rebuilt as a practical matter because of the way the cylinder is contained in a sleeve (something like that??). Even if that’s not true – as some have commented rebuilding a marine engine ain’t cheap either and it makes less sense the smaller the engine. And rebuilding stops short of my personal desire for more overall reliability. [By the way John the 1 GM and the 1 GM 10 have the same dimensions so I’m assuming they are the same block]. But you have given me the idea that if I do go the less expensive 1 GM 10 route, I could save some money by having the gear-box rebuilt instead of buying a new one.
Right Horsepower? I respect Clay and Randy’s opinion a whole lot when it comes to this sort of thing and from my own limited experience I would guess that 13.5 hp is really not needed for a 25D. And as Fenixrises points out, a lot can be achieved playing around with the prop. Also, Neil astutely points out that we can use our sails in many circumstances to assist our motors. So I have narrowed my choice to the 1 GM 10 or the Beta 10.
1 GM 10 vs. Beta 10 First, I must say that I have a unique situation that allows me to “veracify” everything the Yard tells me. I’ve become great friends with one of the yard mechanics who’s very experienced and he always gives me sage advice.
I’m in the same yard as Bill Chapple and in fact our boats are moored next to each other which is nice. Bill can attest to the quality of our yard and in particular to the mechanics they employ. The “Drew” he mentions in his reply to me, I keep hearing is one of the best small diesel marine mechanics in the Mystic/New London area.
The point is they are not trying to deceive me or push me into a Beta. In fact they’ve told me the Yanmar 1 GM 10 is of the same vintage and is just as time-tested as the Beta 10. They are advising me that the major gain in going with the Beta (for the extra money) would be much smoother operation with considerably less vibration and noise because it is a two cylinder. Trust me you can’t appreciate what its like to have to motor all day with a one cylinder engine until you’ve done it. (Clay knows!) I think its worth some additional cost because as I'm coming to realize motoring becomes at least a 50% probabilty anytime you have to sail to a particular spot and be there within a particular timeframe.
Yesterday I asked Drew to give me a quote on both engines that will include a new gear box and everything necessary for turn-key finality. There is a limit to how much more I’m going to pay for “smoother and quieter.” You are starting with a considerable difference in the price of the engines (by the way we have a Beta dealer on our board who has offered me and others on our board help narrowing the difference) and of course the cost of modifying the existing mounts which at present I’m assuming will be necessary for the Beta but not the Yanmar.
Final Thoughts: Neil’s post reminds me of my personal reality check. I think it fair to say that a Cape Dory CD25D can be had for between 14K-25K depending on age, condition and add-ons. Right now I think DW belongs in the upper middle range. The point is, if you were to repower and had to sell within a year or two – you would never ever get you’re money back. But my plan is to keep her and sail her into my sunset so why wait for my current engine to “crap out” or have it continually plague and worry me. Repowering has been described as the ultimate upgrade costing upwards of 50% of the boats value. But, after you’ve finally spent $35k or more refurbishing a Cape Dory 25D, haven’t you actually spent less than half of what it would cost to find a new boat with anywhere near similar quality?
Keeping things in perspective, I saw an absolutely beautiful blue-hulled Cape Dory 36 at the Jamestown float-in that was for sale. Let’s say you could “steal it” for $120,000. Well it’s that kind of wonderful fantasy that I’ve mentally abandoned by my decision. No more web surfing sites like Yachtworld.com for me. (Okay maybe a little). I’ve upgraded DW already with an auto pilot, dodger, self-tailing winches and a few other things at the suggestion of more experienced CD25D owners like Randy and my experiences this summer have convinced me that this is all the boat I need. My fantasies are now going to be about where I’m taking her next year and the next.
Fortunately, I do realize a lot of my own shortcomings to include that I’m no Carter or John V with a pen. This is my longest post ever and I hope I haven’t bored everyone. And I promise it will never happen again.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
Dick
PS - Thanks Dave for your most post on actual experience putting in a Beta. I will be taking you up on your offer to correspond off line.
After only one day of posts and talking back and forth with my mechanic, the clear choice is the 1 GM 10 or the Beta 10. I don’t think I need the added cost and weight of the Beta 13.5 or the larger Yanmar.
Why Do It? John is right, I have already made up my mind (that is unless the final cost estimate turns out to be ridiculous). First to jddj and others searching for reasons to spend $$$ on our Cape Dory.
My thinking: I am getting more and more confident and wanting to go farther from home (though not like our own Winthrop who I hear has taken Typhoons across oceans). I’m 57 years old and I have found three or four regular sailing mates (Clay Stalker and Peter Drake of this board included) that go on cruises with me but I am slowly drawing my wife into the mix. Once I convince her of my competence at the helm she has agreed to travel the world with me, at least as far as Long Island Sound. That's a work in progress. Currently, she trusts me to row out to the boat and to spend time at the mooring.
The problem as I see it with a 20 + year old motor is reliability. DW’s 1 GM runs like an ox (as Clay will attest) but you are forever replacing things that break. Just a few actual examples for emphasis: fuel pump, rebuilt fuel injector, new cylinder head and my most recent experience, an engine control panel. I have spent considerable sums keeping the old 1 GM humming and I see no end in sight. The list of parts that fail and cause problems based on posts to this board seems endless: exhaust mixing elbow, starter, ignition parts, etc. And from what I’ve heard it’s likely to be the raw-water cooling system that eventually will kill the 1 GM and not its internal parts. Mine has been operating in salt water for all of it’s 21 years.
My current theory is that what breaks will increase in cost to repair in a direct relationship to distance away from home. I can change an impeller and bleed the engine but I’m no Mike Ritenour or Leo MacDonald when it comes to changing things. And if anything of consequence breaks while Ann is on board that will not be a good thing. So you can see jddj, I’m really doing all this for my wife!
Seriously though and honestly, I think I’m rewarding (or maybe consoling) myself for deciding not to spend a fortune “moving up” where you end up with a bigger more costly boat that also has “issues” and is in line for endless “upgrades.” And I’ve been in boating long enough to realize the bigger the boat the more the parts cost. So I’ve reached a decision to keep Dream Weaver and make her perfect (like my wife).
I also want the peace of mind of a more reliable auxiliary propulsion system. And finally, one of my hobbies when I retire in a few years is to continue to bring Dream Weaver closer to a pristine state. I’m already getting excited with thoughts of what I might do to the engine compartment with no engine in it. (I know that sounds strange and an appropriate comment might be “you need to get a life” but I am one who really enjoys fussing with my boat almost as much as sailing, e.g., I varnish rather than use Cetol).
The bottom line to all this is that it is a very individual decision for each of us. I think if I could fix things like Leo or Mike (or Tod Mills for that matter) I might feel differently.
Rebuild? John, it is my understanding that a 1 GM cannot be rebuilt as a practical matter because of the way the cylinder is contained in a sleeve (something like that??). Even if that’s not true – as some have commented rebuilding a marine engine ain’t cheap either and it makes less sense the smaller the engine. And rebuilding stops short of my personal desire for more overall reliability. [By the way John the 1 GM and the 1 GM 10 have the same dimensions so I’m assuming they are the same block]. But you have given me the idea that if I do go the less expensive 1 GM 10 route, I could save some money by having the gear-box rebuilt instead of buying a new one.
Right Horsepower? I respect Clay and Randy’s opinion a whole lot when it comes to this sort of thing and from my own limited experience I would guess that 13.5 hp is really not needed for a 25D. And as Fenixrises points out, a lot can be achieved playing around with the prop. Also, Neil astutely points out that we can use our sails in many circumstances to assist our motors. So I have narrowed my choice to the 1 GM 10 or the Beta 10.
1 GM 10 vs. Beta 10 First, I must say that I have a unique situation that allows me to “veracify” everything the Yard tells me. I’ve become great friends with one of the yard mechanics who’s very experienced and he always gives me sage advice.
I’m in the same yard as Bill Chapple and in fact our boats are moored next to each other which is nice. Bill can attest to the quality of our yard and in particular to the mechanics they employ. The “Drew” he mentions in his reply to me, I keep hearing is one of the best small diesel marine mechanics in the Mystic/New London area.
The point is they are not trying to deceive me or push me into a Beta. In fact they’ve told me the Yanmar 1 GM 10 is of the same vintage and is just as time-tested as the Beta 10. They are advising me that the major gain in going with the Beta (for the extra money) would be much smoother operation with considerably less vibration and noise because it is a two cylinder. Trust me you can’t appreciate what its like to have to motor all day with a one cylinder engine until you’ve done it. (Clay knows!) I think its worth some additional cost because as I'm coming to realize motoring becomes at least a 50% probabilty anytime you have to sail to a particular spot and be there within a particular timeframe.
Yesterday I asked Drew to give me a quote on both engines that will include a new gear box and everything necessary for turn-key finality. There is a limit to how much more I’m going to pay for “smoother and quieter.” You are starting with a considerable difference in the price of the engines (by the way we have a Beta dealer on our board who has offered me and others on our board help narrowing the difference) and of course the cost of modifying the existing mounts which at present I’m assuming will be necessary for the Beta but not the Yanmar.
Final Thoughts: Neil’s post reminds me of my personal reality check. I think it fair to say that a Cape Dory CD25D can be had for between 14K-25K depending on age, condition and add-ons. Right now I think DW belongs in the upper middle range. The point is, if you were to repower and had to sell within a year or two – you would never ever get you’re money back. But my plan is to keep her and sail her into my sunset so why wait for my current engine to “crap out” or have it continually plague and worry me. Repowering has been described as the ultimate upgrade costing upwards of 50% of the boats value. But, after you’ve finally spent $35k or more refurbishing a Cape Dory 25D, haven’t you actually spent less than half of what it would cost to find a new boat with anywhere near similar quality?
Keeping things in perspective, I saw an absolutely beautiful blue-hulled Cape Dory 36 at the Jamestown float-in that was for sale. Let’s say you could “steal it” for $120,000. Well it’s that kind of wonderful fantasy that I’ve mentally abandoned by my decision. No more web surfing sites like Yachtworld.com for me. (Okay maybe a little). I’ve upgraded DW already with an auto pilot, dodger, self-tailing winches and a few other things at the suggestion of more experienced CD25D owners like Randy and my experiences this summer have convinced me that this is all the boat I need. My fantasies are now going to be about where I’m taking her next year and the next.
Fortunately, I do realize a lot of my own shortcomings to include that I’m no Carter or John V with a pen. This is my longest post ever and I hope I haven’t bored everyone. And I promise it will never happen again.
Thank you all for your thoughts.
Dick
PS - Thanks Dave for your most post on actual experience putting in a Beta. I will be taking you up on your offer to correspond off line.
repower
Whew ! Dick you talked me into it. Go for it; whats a nother 10k or so if it gets you what you want?And what would it cost you to get the boat of your dreams set up the way you want it? Life has many tradeoffs.Take one for yourself when you can.RM
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SATIVA STRAINS
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SATIVA STRAINS
Last edited by Ron M. on Feb 11th, '11, 05:11, edited 1 time in total.