CD25--right match for me?

[Mister Ed]

Hi,

Am considering a Cape Dory 25 as suitable for my family's needs. Any input, suggestions welcome.

Boat will be used primarily in Penobscot Bay (lots of ledges, big tides), mostly day trips but possibly the occasional overnighter (wife and 4 year old). Need to be able to sail single handed. Bay can get quite windy, choppy, some swell, but not like open ocean. I'm a novice sailor, most experience is with sailing peapod, but a quick study and have the feel for sailboats.

Not looking to race, just transport family and friends comfortably. Will want to carry lots of gear for extended stays at an island.

I take maintenance seriously, and can do much myself, but not interested in turning heads or having a trophy boat.

There are a couple used ones in my area for $6K and $7K.

Any advice?

Thanks,

Ed

[Didereaux]

Would you order a completely unknown (to you) car sight unseen as your primary transportation? Do you pick out a home from the classifieds and buy it unseen? I thought not, so why in the world would you buy a boat without trying it?

I own a CD-25 and wouldn't part with it, but I also know most of its limitations too, and I know and readily acknowledge that like all boats it fits only certain people and situations.

So at the very least go down to a broker, take the whole tribe along, and pile on to a 25 and see if it fits, if only at the dock.

g'Luk

[Bob Luby]

Sounds like it might be a good boat for you:

Take your family along and see how you all fit. What does your wife want? The cabin does not have standing headroom, I think.
How will your wife use the galley?

Some Advantages: a full keel will tend to slide over those lobster pots. It will have a more gentle motion than some other boats, but it will still be fairly "tippy".

This should be a joint decision. Alternatives might be a Typhoon weekender, or even a Catalina 22 or 25. Your wife will be concerned about safety, so tell her that you will run netting along the lifelines to keep the 4 year old on board.

Your wife will also be concerned about comfort, so try out the bunks. and the V-berth if any.

Enjoy Shopping!
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[Neil Gordon]

Tides are okay, since they only lift your boat up and down. Ledge is different. If you're going to run aground though, the full keel is a plus. A dock mate with a Catalina 28 hit a rock and bent his rudder shaft, not something you're likely to do with a Cape Dory. And as has been pointed out, lobster traps mostly slide by.

Remember that your 4 year old will only be that *this* year.

Sailing is all about compromise. More boat gives you more room, more weight, more speed and more cost.

[Neil Gordon]

How will your wife use the galley?

Your wife will be concerned about safety, so tell her that you will run netting along the lifelines to keep the 4 year old on board.

Real men use the galley, too, Bob.

Netting is a good idea. I use it to keep Roxanne on board but it's saved winch handles, too. Chocolate labs and four year olds are probably best kept on board with a tether, as well.

[ddsailor25]

I had a CD25 for five years and loved it. Great learning boat! One of the things that I learned is that the boat can take alot of weather. We had her out several times with a double reef and a furled Genua in 30 knots of wind. Granted you have to be careful and know when to call it quits, but she can handle those conditions. Some considerations to think about. The head area is very small. I'm not a big guy and I had to squeeze in there and it was a little tight. Depending on the boat set up we had a very small holding tank so check that out as well. One of the nice things is that she does have an outboard. Very cheap if it dies. Inboard diesels can cost a fortune. I never had a problem sleeping on board my 25 as long as the boat doesn't creek, so if you can check one out on the water, even better. Best of luck. That price point does seem to be about accurate for that boat. Email if you have any other questions.

Dave

[Mister Ed]

Thanks for all the replies everybody.

My wife's not big on overnight cruising (tends to feel a bit ill when below decks) so not sure if roominess down there is a big deal. Probably mostly use it to stow gear on way to the island.

This is mainly going to be used for reliable transportation, with some day sailing thrown in for fun. To be honest, the bunks probably won't get used all that often.

And as for the galley, it'll be me down there more than likely!

Glad to hear about that fouling lobster gear isn't an issue.

My sense is that this boat is pretty well suited to the Maine coast.

Anything in particular to look at in examining the used boats, other than general condition?

[ddsailor25]

Always check for soft spots on the deck and around any hardware that is bolted through it. It's the only time that you can hit someone's else's boat with a small hammer and get away with it. If the deck has a soft spot it will sound dead or hollow. I had a problem with one of my chainplates leaking so make sure you check all those out. Check for interior leaks or water stains. Oh, the rudders on the CD 25 can delaminate off the SS shaft. Make sure the rudder is on the shaft tight and that the glass is not pulling away from the shaft. It usually start at the top of the rudder so if you pull straight down on the blade of the rudder you'll see if it's delaminating. It's about $1200 to get a new one made up and alot of work to get it out, so check it. The bushing at the base of the rudder should also be tight or have very little play. Any other question let us know. What year are you looking for? If you can go 1980 or newer you'll get opening ports which is nice and I believe they changed some of the construction techniques then as well.

Dave

[Mister Ed]

Just got back from looking at the boat (owner couldn't meet me, but we chatted on phone).

It's out of the water on stands, the three of us climbed aboard and checked her out. Nice roomy cockpit. Seemed in pretty good shape--teak was gray and weathered, but mostly intact (one bad split that I noticed). Deck surface seemed intact. Hull seemed OK, had a moderately weathered blue chalky layer below waterline that was coming of in places, looked like a red layer beneath, and white below that. Assume that would need to be stripped down to the base layer and sanded, then refinished? Lots of backbreaking work, I suppose.

Definitely looks like it needs some TLC, but my hunch is largely cosmetic. I asked a neighbor who works in a local boatyard to come out and look at it with me tomorrow to get a more experienced eye on things.

Wife and son liked it. . .bigger than they expected!

Built in '76, second owner, hasn't been in the water the past 3 years (owner says his kids not that interested in going out anymore, daughter has a horse, etc.).

[Oswego John]

Hi Ed,

Since the boat hasn't been in the water for about three years, my guess is that the blue substance that is flaking below the waterline is old, weathered, dried out bottom paint. And under that is a previous coat of red bottom paint. Who knows, maybe the white under that could be the boat skin itself.

I'm sure that your neighbor who works in a boatyard has some knowledge about boats in general and I'm not trying to belittle his expertise in any way. What I suggest is for you to spend a few hundred dollars and get a professional marine surveyor to thoroughly check out the boat before you buy it. If he catches just one major flaw, he would save you beaucoup bucks that you would otherwise spend to repair it.

Since the boat has been up on blocks for so long, a little extra time for the survey shouldn't be any trouble. If a surveyor should discover something negative, you might use this info in bargaining the bottom line price. If no flaw(s) are found, you will sleep a lot sounder knowing that you purchased a great boat.

Good luck,
O J

[Mister Ed]

Good advice about a surveyer, I will find out how much one costs in the area (I'm sure there's no shortage as I'm in Camden!).

The more I poke around this forum and elsewhere, and the more I talk to people who know boats, the more I'm sensing $6K might be a tad too much for this boat (apparently a previous party offered him only $3K).

I noticed a little water on the floor in the cabin--like to know exactly how that got there. Also noticed that the portholes are those plastic ones that don't open--not ideal. But mainly I just had the sense that this boat is going to take some work to get shipshape, and possibly a fair bit of money.

[RHB]

Ed -

As a recent recipient of an excellent survey (and new owner of an '81 CD25), I'll add a few pedestrian points to OJ's post:

1. A survey is really a mandatory item, to my mind; it accrues entirely to your benefit, and will aquaint you intimately with the condition of the vessel. It will likely cost you $300-400, but this is a small price to pay for the legitimate negotiating position you'll gain.

2. In choosing a surveyor, get a sample copy of his/her work for a similar vessel. This will add to your appreciation of a survey's value (if the surveyor is good), and more crucially will give you a sense of how the surveyor prioritizes his/her recommendations of needed work. Ideally, the surveyor will demarcate recommendations into a few categories -- work needed to bring the vessel into code, key work to repair worrisome problems or prevent them from occuring, and other work that could wait a while.

3. Price out the code-related work, and the crucial repair jobs (if any). You might be able to perform some of the work yourself, in which case it's up to you how to value that. Any key work that entails a professional contractor is normally something that you can deduct from the asking price, as a general thought (the seller might not agree, but you'll be standing on solid ground in your negotiation).

4. A survey is also important for purposes of arranging insurance, as it will (among other things) express an opinion as to the replacement cost of the boat.

5. A good surveyor will welcome your presence at the survey. This is a wonderful opportunity to ask all sorts of questions, while trying to stay out of the way (good luck on that!). You'll learn more in a few hours than you'd expect. It's really fun.

6. You need not share the survey results with the seller. You paid for it, and it's yours to use as you like. If its conclusions fly in the face of a recent survey performed by the current owner, then you might have to sit down and work through any discrepancies.

7. If you look through Yachtworld.com or similar sites, you'll see that CD25s in decent condition tend to sell for $5000 - $8500, as a general range. Condition is an important driver to price, as is extra gear and doo-dads that the owner might have added over time. (If these items are agreed to be real assets, like GPS or a new engine or a roller furler, they do add value; if the owner has spent $3000 on a gumball machine powered by the transponder, that's his problem.

Good luck! CD25s are indeed fantastic boats, and as a brand new owner of one, I share your excitement. I hope it works out for you.

- Rob

[Mister Ed]

I talked to a local surveyer, who was very helpful and said he'd charge $500 for a full report or $150/hr. for just an informal look-see.

My boatyard neighbor looked at the boat with me last night, said it was pretty much good to go.

Looks like original sails--they don't look in too bad shape, but probably want to factor in cost for replacements. $1-2K?

Interestingly, on the way home, saw another CD25 for sale in a backyard. Stopped and looked--this one was an '82 (isn't that when they stopped making them and just turned out the Alberg model, the 25D?). This particular boat had received a lot of maintenance at a local yard (plus it had those nice bronze ports that open!). Brand new sails, plus a honking new 4-stroke. Guy didn't seem to know boats much and hardly ever sailed. But wants $11K. That definitely seems high.

No rush. . .I'll keep looking, and prices are bound to drop a bit as winter approaches.

[Neil Gordon]

I talked to a local surveyer, who was very helpful and said he'd charge $500 for a full report or $150/hr. for just an informal look-see.

No rush. . .I'll keep looking, and prices are bound to drop a bit as winter approaches.

Go for the full survey if you decide on a boat. It's worth it. If they find something, the seller will fix it or adjust the price. If they find nothing, you have the piece of mind knowing the mast won't fall down when you least want it to. Aside from that, you'll learn $500 worth or more just by watching the surveyor.

No rush in buying, but remember that if you buy a boat this week, you have quite a bit of sailing season left. Aside from the sailing time, you can end the fall with a nice list of winter/spring projects and a really good wish list for the holidays.

[Oswego John]

Mr Ed,

Traditionally, the best time to buy, pricewise, is from late summer through autumn. Springtime, when people contract the itch of ownership from going to th boat shows, commands the highest prices for buying a boat.

There are several factors that come into play. I think that, possibly, a low price will motivate a buyer (anytime of the year) but the seller feels that if he sells the boat before winter, he'll save the cost of storing the boat until spring as well as other ancillary costs like unstepping the mast and hauling the boat, cocooning, etc

I can't say with certainty if the late summer/fall hurricane season might prompt certain potential southern owners who are on the cusp of selling, to reduce the price. Maybe, maybe not. Probably the more severe winters of the north have more effect than southern weather upon the decision to sell early.

The purchase of a boat late in the season is a double edged sword for the buyer. The lower purchase price could be offset by the fact that he has to store the boat and secure it for the winter. If it is possible for the boat to be moved to the new owners home for the off season,that would be great. Not only would he save on winter storage fees, but he could work on the boat at his personal convenience.

As a sidebar, I was told by my insurance rep that when my boat is stored on my dwelling property, it is covered by my homeowners insurance.

So Ed, if you see the right boat, at the right price, jump on it. The little problems can be worked out, ie:trailer, hauling service, cradle, on and on .... And other hidden taxes will arise, for sure.

Good luck
O J