I want to move all my external halyards internal on my CD36, right not only the staysail halyard is internal. I was speaking to my rigger about it today and he said on most boats its not an issue, but sometimes it can be. He said some boats masts have sheaves in a sort of "box" inside the mast, and thus there will be something blocking the halyards from leading down. Anyone know if this is the case with the CD36? I dont think I will be able to tell without taking the top of the mast off, so would like to know if anyone else has led their halyards internal and knows for sure. Though its possible configurations will vary from year to year, still want to hear others knowledge.
Several reasons I want to do this. First off doing this would free up two sheaves, allowing me to convert one of the aft sheaves to use for a halyard style topping lift like you see on new boats, and turn one of the front sheaves into a spare jib halyard (in case of breakage or losing it up the mast while offshore). And as a bonus it of course would be less noisy at anchor.
Internalize halyards on CD36
Moderator: Jim Walsh
Internalize halyards on CD36
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
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bottomscraper
- Posts: 1400
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 11:08
- Location: Previous Owner of CD36 Mahalo #163 1990
- Contact:
I think it would work.
I had the mast head off on Mahalo last spring so I could replace the VHF antenna and coax. I think it would be possible to move the halyards to internal routing. On Mahalo we have a significant number of wires running in the mast, lights, radar, wind instruments and VHF. It's a bit crowded in there!
Rich Abato
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
Nordic Tug 34 Tanuki
Previous Owner Of CD36 Mahalo #163
Southern Maine
http://www.sailmahalo.com
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Parfait's Provider
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Feb 6th, '05, 13:06
- Location: CD/36 #84, Parfait, Raleigh, NC
berthed Whortonsville, NC
I'm not so sure about it being less noisy. You can tame an external halyard, but an internal halyard is a little hard to reach and the usual queting methods don't work on a halyard. A lot of slack might provide sufficient coiling and damping, but I'd not bet on it.
That said, Parfait's halyards are internal, but I have no idea what the configuration is at the masthead.
That said, Parfait's halyards are internal, but I have no idea what the configuration is at the masthead.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/36 #84
Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/36 #84
Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Re: I think it would work.
Thats another of my projects which I am working on right now, I am putting all the wiring into conduit(replacing the wiring while at it, for good measure), basicly a PVC pipe running the length of the mast, and a second PVC pipe just for the radar wire. These pipes will be riveted about every 5' or so to the inside of the mast so it wont back around. Will make for a nice clean and tidy setup. My rigger said in his experience this is the best setup there is for mast wiring.bottomscraper wrote:I had the mast head off on Mahalo last spring so I could replace the VHF antenna and coax. I think it would be possible to move the halyards to internal routing. On Mahalo we have a significant number of wires running in the mast, lights, radar, wind instruments and VHF. It's a bit crowded in there!
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
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Greg Kozlowski
Internal halyards
For what it's worth, I would recommend against moving the halyards inside the mast.
When we refitted for bluewater cruising, I replaced all of the mast electrical wires and placed the new wiring within a pvc conduit. I also added a trilight with strobe and anchor light.
If your mast is down, pull the top cap with the sheeves off and check and lubricate the sheeves. Also check your tang bolts for crevise corrosion. You will notice that the spreader bolts go right thru the mast with an aluminum sleeve inside to prevent overtightening of these bolts from calapsing the mast wall. These bolts are your greatest impediment to internal halyards as the halyards will not be able to run straight down and will rub on these. It is a very difficult procedure to even run a pvc conduit straight thru because of these bolts.
I think internal halyards are an unnecessary complication and they are going to be a bitch to replace if they break at sea. External halyards can be tamed very simply by tieing them off the mast at anchor. Also, the tackle arrangement for the topping lift is superior to a masthead setup as it is much easier to lift the boom via a tackle. And you will be lifting the boom everytime you reef. The boom is heavy, why make it heavier by eliminating the tackle?
If you want to make an improvement, find a way to move the topping lift to the starboard side of the boom, if you find room. Even after five years of ocean sailing, I still swear at Alberg and cape dory for putting the topping lift on the other side of the main halyard and reef lines forcing me to go on the other side evertime I reef... clip on, unclip, clip on, unclip ... a real pain, especially in heavy weather.
Greg
When we refitted for bluewater cruising, I replaced all of the mast electrical wires and placed the new wiring within a pvc conduit. I also added a trilight with strobe and anchor light.
If your mast is down, pull the top cap with the sheeves off and check and lubricate the sheeves. Also check your tang bolts for crevise corrosion. You will notice that the spreader bolts go right thru the mast with an aluminum sleeve inside to prevent overtightening of these bolts from calapsing the mast wall. These bolts are your greatest impediment to internal halyards as the halyards will not be able to run straight down and will rub on these. It is a very difficult procedure to even run a pvc conduit straight thru because of these bolts.
I think internal halyards are an unnecessary complication and they are going to be a bitch to replace if they break at sea. External halyards can be tamed very simply by tieing them off the mast at anchor. Also, the tackle arrangement for the topping lift is superior to a masthead setup as it is much easier to lift the boom via a tackle. And you will be lifting the boom everytime you reef. The boom is heavy, why make it heavier by eliminating the tackle?
If you want to make an improvement, find a way to move the topping lift to the starboard side of the boom, if you find room. Even after five years of ocean sailing, I still swear at Alberg and cape dory for putting the topping lift on the other side of the main halyard and reef lines forcing me to go on the other side evertime I reef... clip on, unclip, clip on, unclip ... a real pain, especially in heavy weather.
Greg
Greg,
Is the pvc conduit you put in riveted or attached somehow? or loose in the mast?
Tri light with anchor and strobe is actually on my list as well, I ordered one of those very expensive ORC led tri colors, cost a bundle but at least I (in theory) wont have to worry about burnt out bulbs. I am also going ahead and replacing the steaming/deck light, which while it still works has a good bit of corrosion, worth spending the $80 to replace it now while the mast is down, I just wish there was a USGC approved LED steaming light out now (one is coming out in august).
The mast cap is coming off anyways to facilitate rewiring, so I will take a look at the spreader bolts and see if they are the same setup as mine. You have a very good point here if this is indeed the case with mine. the excessive chafe alone these might cause could make the idea of running the halyards internal not worth it, chafe on halyards is not a good thing.
Interesting point you make about the topping lift. With a halyard stlyle topping lift you could howver certainly setup a system which makes lifting the boom easy, such as a small winch. Having the topping lift halyard style at the mast would also take care of your gripe about it being on the wrong side of the boom.
Is the pvc conduit you put in riveted or attached somehow? or loose in the mast?
Tri light with anchor and strobe is actually on my list as well, I ordered one of those very expensive ORC led tri colors, cost a bundle but at least I (in theory) wont have to worry about burnt out bulbs. I am also going ahead and replacing the steaming/deck light, which while it still works has a good bit of corrosion, worth spending the $80 to replace it now while the mast is down, I just wish there was a USGC approved LED steaming light out now (one is coming out in august).
The mast cap is coming off anyways to facilitate rewiring, so I will take a look at the spreader bolts and see if they are the same setup as mine. You have a very good point here if this is indeed the case with mine. the excessive chafe alone these might cause could make the idea of running the halyards internal not worth it, chafe on halyards is not a good thing.
Interesting point you make about the topping lift. With a halyard stlyle topping lift you could howver certainly setup a system which makes lifting the boom easy, such as a small winch. Having the topping lift halyard style at the mast would also take care of your gripe about it being on the wrong side of the boom.
Russell
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
s/v (yet to be named) Tayana 42CC
s/v Lady Pauline Cape Dory 36 #117 (for sale)
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Greg Kozlowski
pvc attachment
Russell,
I attached the pvc at the top and bottom of the mast with U clamps. Not a good way to do it as the conduit bangs around and makes a racket. Next time the mast is down I will shove some foam deep in there to stop it from banging. Attaching it down the length of the mast is the way to do it.
The refit, including the mast work, was a pretty steep learning curve for me so, of course, in retrospect I would do some things differently now, knowing better. But mistakes will be made in any such endavour first time around.
As for the topping lift. I would love to have it on the same side as the reefing lines and the main halyard, but would never put it on the mast to do so. With the tackle, I can raise the boom with one hand while hanging on with the other. The ease of doing so can not be properly appreciated without having had to do it many times over. Rig the lines for a masthead topping lift by all means, but before you change over, sail the boat for a few months and then make your decision. Better still, put the mainsail halyard on as a topping lift and compare before committing.
Greg
I attached the pvc at the top and bottom of the mast with U clamps. Not a good way to do it as the conduit bangs around and makes a racket. Next time the mast is down I will shove some foam deep in there to stop it from banging. Attaching it down the length of the mast is the way to do it.
The refit, including the mast work, was a pretty steep learning curve for me so, of course, in retrospect I would do some things differently now, knowing better. But mistakes will be made in any such endavour first time around.
As for the topping lift. I would love to have it on the same side as the reefing lines and the main halyard, but would never put it on the mast to do so. With the tackle, I can raise the boom with one hand while hanging on with the other. The ease of doing so can not be properly appreciated without having had to do it many times over. Rig the lines for a masthead topping lift by all means, but before you change over, sail the boat for a few months and then make your decision. Better still, put the mainsail halyard on as a topping lift and compare before committing.
Greg
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David van den Burgh
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Feb 5th, '05, 18:54
- Location: Ariel CD36, 1979 - Lake Michigan
- Contact:
Regarding mounting PVC pipe
Russell (et al),
I vaguely recall a discussion about using slugs in the mast's internal track to prevent wires from banging about. The theory was that the wires are bundled together, supported every 12 inches or so with zip-ties fastened to a slug, then hauled up the mast.
We haven't done this on Ariel, but it's on our to-do list before she goes back in the water.
Would this be a better alternative to drilling holes in the mast to support a pvc pipe?
Anyway, it's just an idea. I figured I'd throw it out there.
David
I vaguely recall a discussion about using slugs in the mast's internal track to prevent wires from banging about. The theory was that the wires are bundled together, supported every 12 inches or so with zip-ties fastened to a slug, then hauled up the mast.
We haven't done this on Ariel, but it's on our to-do list before she goes back in the water.
Would this be a better alternative to drilling holes in the mast to support a pvc pipe?
Anyway, it's just an idea. I figured I'd throw it out there.
David
Last edited by David van den Burgh on Feb 15th, '05, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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fenixrises
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Feb 13th, '05, 08:01
- Location: SunShine S2 11c
- Contact:
Hi all,
One other thing to consider in this discussion. For offshore sailing external halyards have one advantage. After installing a PVC pipe for wiring you can completely fill the inside of the mast with two part urethane foam. In the case of a severe knock down where the mast head is in the water this will keep the mast will from filling with water. It also adds flotation and righting moment. The foam will also significantly dampen halyard noise.
Getting the two part foam into the mast is quite an exercise. One way is by using cheap condiment applicators, those things made for ketchup and mustard. You need 8-10 of them as they can only be used one time each. The liquid can be squirted through any already existing hole in the mast.
Another way is to strip the mast of all hardware. Then find a place to stand it vertical. Mix the two part foam in styrofoam or plastic cups one at a time. Then drop the cups in the upper end. Give the foam in each cup a chance to expand and harden a bit before dropping in the next cup.
Take care,
Fred B.
One other thing to consider in this discussion. For offshore sailing external halyards have one advantage. After installing a PVC pipe for wiring you can completely fill the inside of the mast with two part urethane foam. In the case of a severe knock down where the mast head is in the water this will keep the mast will from filling with water. It also adds flotation and righting moment. The foam will also significantly dampen halyard noise.
Getting the two part foam into the mast is quite an exercise. One way is by using cheap condiment applicators, those things made for ketchup and mustard. You need 8-10 of them as they can only be used one time each. The liquid can be squirted through any already existing hole in the mast.
Another way is to strip the mast of all hardware. Then find a place to stand it vertical. Mix the two part foam in styrofoam or plastic cups one at a time. Then drop the cups in the upper end. Give the foam in each cup a chance to expand and harden a bit before dropping in the next cup.
Take care,
Fred B.
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Matt Cawthorne
Internal halyards
I moved some of my halyards to internal and left some external. The halyards on the starboard shives were made internal and the port was left as original. This way you add a halyard on the starboard shives. You can use the port halyard as a spare for either the main sail or for the yankee. The lead for the winch is bad if you need to use it for the main sail, but it would be OK for a while. If you do lots of planning and get the math right you can run two starboard halyards to work with no crossing and no rubbing and still get good leads to the winches. In order to do this you need to tame the wires. The internal mast tracks work well for this. If you bundle the wires well there will be no chafing with the halyards as they will not cross. I beg to differ with Greg about the difficulty of replacing the internal halyards at sea. It would not be difficult. It would be impossible. In order to get the halyards around the various bolts and compression posts I had to be very careful, running messengers on wire fishes and tensioning them, rolling the mast several times in the process. If I have to go up the mast at sea to replace halyards, it will be to convert them back to external for the duration of the trip. I am hoping that the spare halyard will eliminate the need to do so.
Matt
Matt
Topping lift on Starboard side
I noticed somebody mentioned this in an earlier post. Our topping lift is situated on the starboard side of the mast. We deadend the lift at the boom end, run it up to the mast head where it goes through a small sheve and then down the mast, through a small clutch on the starboard side and then to a mast cleat below the gooseneck. I can raise the main, adjust the topping lift, tuck in a reef all from the mast. Granted the boom is a bit heavy, but it would not be too difficult to convert to a 2:1 system.
Pat
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