Inadequate Charts!! Submarines!

[Brian Hickson]

This was a terrible tragedy but the Navy was fortunate that it occurred to an older Los Angeles class sub such as the USS San Francisco 711.

Beginning with the USS Providence 719, all Los Angeles class subs were equipped with twelve Tomahawk missle vertical launch tubes in the bow.

I assume that the possibilty exist that the warheads or rocket propellant could have detonated during the collision.



brian_hickson@hsb.com

[Ken Coit]

I have no idea. Nearly everything I know about subs comes from the film "Run Silent, Run Deep" which we "saw" many times at the drive in back in the 50s. Nothing like having the plot down solid if you know the questions that will be asked when you arrive home mid morning.

Keep on sailing,

Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC

I'm curious about how subs work. Do they have sonar that will tell them about objects ahead of them or to the sides? If so, was this one not using it for some security reason? I wonder if there is something akin to passive sonar that would sense large objects (mountains) that wouldn't give away the position of the sub due to sending out signals to be bounced back.

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[randy]

I would have thought their on board sonar would have given an indication that a mountain loomed dead ahead. But what do I know? Anybody know the answer?

Randy 25D Seraph #161

About a week back I put up a post about "not feeling so bad" when running aground since a Navy submarine did so. That little bit of levity was written before I knew a sailor died in the "accident" and 60 sailors were serious injured. Turns out the sub ran smack into a mountain that wasn't on the chart. The sub was at 500 feet and travelling at "high speed". The mountain wasn't on the chart in spite of the fact that a previous gps satellite image showed the mountain. I find that more than a bit upsetting. I know Leo MacDonald served in subs for many years. I wonder if he, or any other submariner, has any comments on this.
I've included the entire article for those who wish to read it. You only have to read a few paragraphs to get the gist of it. After you read how slack they are in updating charts, perhaps any prudent captain ready to go to sea ought to visit West Marine and get his charts there!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 15, 2005
Submarine Crash Shows Navy Had Gaps in Mapping System
By CHRISTOPHER DREW

Sailors on the San Francisco, a nuclear-powered attack submarine, had just finished cleaning the vessel last Saturday as it sped along 500 feet beneath the surface of the South Pacific. Submarines run blind, just listening for sounds of danger. And to the captain and other officers relying on undersea navigation charts, everything seemed clear.

Suddenly, there was a horrible screeching. And according to an e-mail message written by a crew member, the inside of the submarine quickly resembled a scene from the movie "The Matrix." He wrote, "Everything slowed down and levitated and then went flying forward faster than the brain can process."

The submarine had crashed head-on into an undersea mountain that was not on the charts. One sailor was killed, and about 60 others were injured. Now, Defense Department officials say they have found a satellite image taken in 1999 that indicates an undersea mountain rising to perhaps within 100 feet below the surface there.

But the older navigation charts provided to the Navy were never updated to show the obstruction, they acknowledge, in part because the agency that creates them has never had the resources to use the satellite data systematically.

The officials said the main chart on the submarine, prepared in 1989 and never revised, did not show any potential obstacles within three miles of the crash. They said the incident happened in such a desolate area - 360 miles southeast of Guam - that updating their depiction of the undersea terrain was never considered a priority.

The new information about the charting flaws also illustrates what many experts say is a broader danger not only to submarines but also to many surface ships. At the same time, it provides a glimpse into the arcane task of plotting an undersea world that in some areas is still more mysterious than the surfaces of Mars or Venus.

A variety of satellite data is now showing that many sea charts, including some that still rely on notations from the days when sailors navigated by the stars, are inaccurate. And some scientists are calling for greater use of satellite data to fix more precisely the location of undersea ridges, islands and even continental boundaries and to chart large, less studied areas of the oceans.

The latest disclosures support the account by the commanding officer of the San Francisco that the charts showed that his track was clear. But former submarine captains said Navy investigators were likely to examine whether it had been prudent to travel at such a high speed, 30 knots, given the age and spottiness of the information.

Officials said the main chart on the submarine was prepared by the Defense Mapping Agency in August 1989. That office was later absorbed into the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, a part of the Defense Department that provides maps, sea charts and other geographic intelligence to the nation's combat forces.

Chris Andreasen, the chief hydrographer for the Office of Global Navigation at the intelligence agency, acknowledged in an interview that on the chart, "there's nothing shown that would be a hazard" at the crash site.

But since the accident, Mr. Andreasen said, his office has examined commercially available images taken by a Landsat satellite in 1999, and at least one image indicates that an undersea mountain could rise to within 100 feet of the surface there. Analysts say variations in water color can sometimes indicate a land mass below.

Mr. Andreasen said his agency had not normally used satellite imagery to update sea charts, though it recently began using the images to help pinpoint the boundaries of islands and other land masses. He and other officials said that the charting office's staff had shrunk in recent years, and that the Navy never asked it to focus on the area south of Guam, where it began basing submarines in 2002.

Current and former Navy officials say the main focus during the cold war was charting areas in the Northern Pacific and in Arctic seas where missile and surveillance submarines guarded against a Soviet attack. Since then, the Navy has been trying to improve charts of shallower coastal waters in the Middle East and other areas where it might have to help battle terrorists.

Mr. Andreasen said that since global positioning satellites came into wide use in the 1980's, Navy and commercial ships had had a much more accurate way to fix the coordinates of islands, undersea volcanoes and other parts of the giant mountain ranges that jut up from the ocean floor.

"G.P.S. is changing the world," he said.

As ships have reported these coordinates, sea-charting offices around the world have found that many islands were "maybe a mile or two out of position" on widely used charts, he said. So over the past year, his agency has been using the Landsat images and other data to update many nations' boundaries.

But Mr. Andreasen and other scientists said that while commercial shipping interests had helped chart the most common transit routes, large areas of the ocean depths remained little charted.

Dr. David T. Sandwell, a geophysics professor at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego, said that about 40 percent of the oceans were "very, very poorly charted, and those areas are mostly in the Southern Hemisphere."

While many sea charts include obstacles and features spotted by commercial vessels, World War II warships and even 19th-century explorers, the best charts are made by survey ships that use sound beams to create detailed pictures of the undersea terrain. The Navy has only seven such ships, however, and scientists say it could take decades to chart the rest of the seas thoroughly.

As a result, Dr. Sandwell and others have suggested that the government make rough chartings of more areas with another type of satellite - one that uses radar to measure variations in the height of the ocean that can signal if mountains are below.

Dr. Sandwell said readings by one such satellite in the mid-1980's also indicated there could be an undersea mountain at the San Francisco's crash site. But he said the margin of error was too large for the studies to be conclusive. And Mr. Andreasen said much of the satellite data was too vague for precise charting.

Mr. Andreasen said the main chart used on the submarine showed that the only concerns were a small area of discolored water that had been noted three miles from the crash site and some coral reefs about 10 miles away.

Notes on the chart indicated that the discolored water was mentioned on a British sea chart in 1963, and Mr. Andreasen said the notation might even go back to World War II. He said the discoloration might have been just a temporary disturbance, or it could have been a sign of the undersea ridge.

Other notes suggest that some ships had reported depths of 5,000 to 6,000 feet nearby. But Mr. Andreasen said few commercial ships used the area, and "it has never been systematically surveyed."

Navy officials declined to comment, saying they are investigating the accident.

The submarine left Guam on Jan. 7 for Brisbane, Australia. The Navy said 23 of the sailors were seriously injured, and at least five had broken bones.

The e-mail message by the sailor was sent to several people involved with submarines, and as it circulated within the submarine community, one person provided a copy to The New York Times.

The sailor wrote that many crew members were eating lunch at the time of the crash, which severely damaged the vessel's bow. He said several sailors suffered "bad head wounds," and men in the engine room smashed against "lots of metal and sharp edges."

Still, he said that the vessel's damage control party "did everything exactly right even though they were hurt as well."

The message also said that the submarine was lucky to have an extra medic on board, and that its main medic, known as a corpsman, did not sleep during the two-day trip back to port.

The Navy has said a machinist's mate second class, Joseph A. Ashley of Akron, Ohio, was knocked unconscious by the crash and died the next day from severe head injuries. The e-mail message said other sailors were surprised that the corpsman "got him to hold on as long as he did."


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rtbates@austin.rr.com

[Leo MacDonald]

Hi Randy,

The historic and current advantage to U-Boats is that you cannot see them.

As warships in today’s electronic warfare world, the biggest advantage of Submarines is you cannot HEAR them. Passive Sonar is used extensively. Active Sonar sends a pulse that can be heard and read from great distances.

Fair Winds,
Leo

[Leo MacDonald]

Hi Max,

Passive sonar is like standing in a room with a blindfold and no one making a sound. When someone makes a noise you will get an idea as to the distance and direction. But they still do not know where you are

With Active sonar you shout in the same room. Now everyone knows where you are . . . And, if you're lucky, you can hear some of that shout bounce off someone or some think (like an echo in a canyon.)

Hope that helps.

Fair Winds,
Leo

[Neil Gordon]

Compared to modern subs, WWII subs didn't run either silent or deep.

Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



liquidity@NOSPAMnrgordon.com

[Leo MacDonald]

Compared to modern subs, WWII subs didn't run either silent or deep.

Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167

[Ken Coit]

I am sure! Too bad they didn't get better charts along with all the high tech power plant, electronics, etc.

Ken

Compared to modern subs, WWII subs didn't run either silent or deep.

Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[Sponge Bob]

Do I hear an echo? Didn't Neil just say the same thing? SBSP

Compared to modern subs, WWII subs didn't run either silent or deep.

Fair winds, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167

[Mike Johnson, tywe]

I served on subs for 21 years. They have a variety of means for navigation. subs run silent so that they can not be heard. active sonar is rarely used and is often "tagged out" except in navigating in restricted waters. Subs do have a secure fathometer which could be run that would not give away their location, but it is not used except in certain tactical and navigation situations. the incident is traggic in that it could have been avoided had the updates been posted. the quatermasters on board, along with the navigation officer and team could have had it plotted and the Sub would have been miles away had they known of the image information.



mikej@poseidon.me.jhu.edu

[HamiV]

Off the coast of Venezuela in the mid-90s, we used charts with portions (mostly the eastern coastline) that were last updated in the 1790's!! Two hundred years out of date. Some of the data was WAY off, although I can't think of any specifics.

Basically the major shipping lane portions of these charts had been updated in the last 10 years, and everything else was ANCIENT.

The world is a very, very large place.[/b]

[barleycopse]

The May/June issue of Ocean Navigator contains an article by Nigel Calder on electronic charts that cites the sub accident. Good reading.

[Bill D]

This from a Marine with 36 years service and lots of time at sea on US Navy ships (as the old Gunny said to the boot, "Son, in my travels with the USMC, I've passed more lighthouses than you have telephone poles!")

LIGHTEN UP, GUYS!

1. Everything cannot be a priority. There's a lot of ocean out there. The Navy puts its priorities where the BIG fish are - where the Russians and Chinese play. You'd best pray they continue to do so.

2. Everything has trade-offs. Ken mentioned armor plating. Another New York Times canard, gents. Yes, we can armor the HUMVEE, and, as a result of knee-jerk political pressure, we are. But the vehicle was designed as a highway/offroad light transport vehicle to replace the jeep, and neither the engine nor the transmission can handle the extra weight without sacrificing both cargo capacity and durability. No, we cannot buy SUVs "off the shelf". The HUMVEE comes with fording gear, lifting rings, wheel bearings sealed against the salt water of amphibious landings, and a plethora of other mil spec rerquirements that win wars. Even the canvas is impregnated against nerve agents. Try adding all that plus armor to your Suburban or Roadrunner. It ain't that simple, guys.

3. Why should we have installed a tsunami warning system for the Indian Ocean? There had not been a tsunami recorded in that area in almost 500 years. Why should we now? Let the people who live there do it. They can, but they won't as long as they think they can talk us into doing it for them. And anyway, when our Pacific tsunami people tried to warn the Indians of the last one, the phones didn't answer 'cuz it was Boxing Day!

4. Assume that anything reported in the open press about naval operations is wrong. It usually is - sometimes deliberately so. The US Navy's business is the survival of the nation and the freedom of the seas. It doesn't talk about it.

5. Most of you remember Cap Weinberger cartooned with a $600 toilet seat around his neck. The wags and late-night talk shows had a field day. Well, gents, they were wrong! It cost $600 because it had to be a non-standard shape to fit in a non-standard space on a non-standard aircraft that flew 14-hour missions over water looking for Russian subs, and it had to be of non-standard materials so that it would not give off toxic fumes if the plane got hit and caught fire, and we didn't need very many. We're lucky Cap didn't have to pay $6000 apiece. He didn't deserve that.

Those of us who have spent our working lives in the military are doing our best. We will make mistakes. But rest assured that we are dedicated to defending the nation at the least cost in lives and treasure. And yes, its expensive, but better treasure than the lives of those magnificent young patriots who bear arms for us - and who, if they survive, will be the bedrock of the nation as parents and citizens in whatever they then choose to do. We don't choose the wars, we just fight them - and we fight them to win.

We also understand that being the primary target of the fourth estate is a price of service in a democracy. We can live with it.

As seamen, you should realize that things are rarely as they seem and that nothing is simple in extremis. Well, we deal exclusively with extremis - its called war. That's what you pay us for. Trust us. We're very, very good at what we do.


LIGHTEN UP, GUYS!

[Parfait's Provider]

Lighten up?

$100 million here, $100 million there, pretty soon we are talking real money. Little mistakes can make a large difference in the outcome. Luck should be a very small part of the equation at those prices. Charts that haven't been updated should cost someone a career at those prices; afterall, a crewman gave his life.