"Hogging" or side-deck sagging CD 25

[S.Calder]

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"



spcalder@msn.com

[Oswego John]

Hi S,

While reading your post, I had a smile on my face. For being a lawyer, you seem to have a pretty good grasp on the sagging deck problem and what causes it.

You touched on, in my estimation, the main cause when you referred to a WEIGHT BEARING partition or bulkhead. Anytime that there is an accumulation of unsupported weight without proper support, sagging is inevitable.

Some people have disagreed with my thought in the past, but I maintain that fibreglass has some memory and will have a tendency to return, somewhat, to the original position as when it was manufactured. I think that moderate jacking is a viable solution.

What I am trying to figure out is if you are going to leave the six jacks in place permanently or are they being used soley to return the decks to their original position and then install a permanent system of support to bolster the unsupported bulkhead. I feel that you have to add some sort of permanent support. If it sagged once, it should sag again unless you remedy the situation. It seems that gravity is an ongoing battle.

It seems to me that you have a plan. I think that you should follow the plan, as stated, and elevate the decks in small increments. A little ambient heat couldn't hurt. I don't recommend trying it outdoors in winter, high in the Rockies. Good luck.

Oswego John
PS: A few pictures would be nice.
Let us know how you are making out.

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

[Fred B]

Hi S,

Sounds like you have the situation well in hand.
As John notes you should be thinking about a permanent fix.
Unsupported fiberglass panels can be quite flexible so a bit of jacking about should cause no harm.

Perhaps some judiciously applyed epoxy and S-Glass(bi-axial)would tie the existing partition bulkhead to the hull and bridgedeck and provide the support needed. You should avoid creating any hard spots between the uncored hull and the partition bulkhead.

There are various kinds of foam that are epoxy resistant that could be used to make fillets between hull and bulkhead. Then apply the epoxy-glass. 3-4 inches overlap on both parts, bulkhead&hull, should be sufficient. Using S-Glass without the mat filler should work fine. I would say two layers on each side of the bulkhead should do the trick.

If possible the lamination should also be made to the underside of the deck as well. Since I am not familiar with the CD25 I do not know if there are impediments to doing the glass work. If there is an interior liner on the hull and/or deck this could complicate the situation, however there should be a way to make your repair a permenant fix without being cosmetically undesireable.

If bonding the partition bulkhead to hull and/or deck is not possible then one or two laminated in place wooden deck beams might be a good substitute. Just replace the temporary support beam on the underside of the bridgedeck with a lamination of 1/4" to 3/8" thick by about 3" wide wood strips epoxied together in place. This could be done in 2 to 3 stages until a thickness of about 2" is achieved. If you could work in one or two verticle support posts it should be quite a stout repair. White ash would be good for this and if finished bright would add a handsome piece of structural woodwork to the interior.

Fred B.

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

fenixrises@yahoo.com

[Bruce Bett]

There was considerable discussion on this topic back in May that you seem to have read. I read it carefully at the time then went out my boat and looked at it carefully. Frankly it all gives me a headache. We are seeing the decks sag at the same time the companionway hatch is widening at the top, to the extent that the top companionway board falls out. Here's where the headache comes. It seems to me that a sagging deck would cause the companionway to narrow at the top. Conversely pushing the side decks up at that point may exacerbate the spreading.

My dad bought a 1973 or 74 CD 25 a pre-bridge deck model back in 77. This boat was only 3 or 4 years old but its side decks didn't drain any better than my 77 CD 25 drains in 2004. For these reasons I'm not sure that we have a thorough understanding of what's going on here. I agree that strengthening the bulkhead and attaching it to the hull and deck is a good idea, but I'm not really comfortable getting out the jacks and pushing things around much.

But I detect in your post a certain "Damn the torpedoes" intrepidity, most commendable in a lawyer. After all the thought and effort you have expended on this project your not going to be discouraged by my wimpy negativism. So proceed, by all means proceed, but do me a favor. Measure the opening at the top of the companionway hatch. Then measure it again once you get those side decks jacked up to where you want them. Let me know whether it widens or narrows. It will be good for my headache.

Bruce Bett
Sostenuto CD25 #496

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

bettb@macomb.edu

[Dave Brandt]

I had the same problem on my 1976 CD-25. There were cracks in the forward corners of the cockpit by the combings that indicated where the flexing was taking place.

I was a bit surprised that the aft "bulk heads" were not really anything but dividers between the cabin and lockers. I did not try to reposition the deck, but did build new bulk heads that did support the deck. Since the bulk heads came down to the hull liner and the hull liner was not attached to the hull at that point, I extended the attachment point down to the hull and tabbed it in. I am satisfied that the hull will not sag anymore and plan on dealing with the water pooling with a couple of drain holes into the cockpit.

Good luck with the project, I am interested to hear how the raising of the deck goes.

Dave



dave@prairiewalls.com

[Oswego John]

Hi Bruce,

You know, the more I think about it , the more I tend to agree with your rationale. I wasn't aware that the hatchway was widening at the top

At first thought, I am wondering if the total beam is widening, is the distance between the gunnals wider now than it originally was?

This poser could turn out to be quite interesting. Hmmm. Stay tuned.

Oswego John

There was considerable discussion on this topic back in May that you seem to have read. I read it carefully at the time then went out my boat and looked at it carefully. Frankly it all gives me a headache. We are seeing the decks sag at the same time the companionway hatch is widening at the top, to the extent that the top companionway board falls out. Here's where the headache comes. It seems to me that a sagging deck would cause the companionway to narrow at the top. Conversely pushing the side decks up at that point may exacerbate the spreading.

My dad bought a 1973 or 74 CD 25 a pre-bridge deck model back in 77. This boat was only 3 or 4 years old but its side decks didn't drain any better than my 77 CD 25 drains in 2004. For these reasons I'm not sure that we have a thorough understanding of what's going on here. I agree that strengthening the bulkhead and attaching it to the hull and deck is a good idea, but I'm not really comfortable getting out the jacks and pushing things around much.

But I detect in your post a certain "Damn the torpedoes" intrepidity, most commendable in a lawyer. After all the thought and effort you have expended on this project your not going to be discouraged by my wimpy negativism. So proceed, by all means proceed, but do me a favor. Measure the opening at the top of the companionway hatch. Then measure it again once you get those side decks jacked up to where you want them. Let me know whether it widens or narrows. It will be good for my headache.

Bruce Bett
Sostenuto CD25 #496

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

[Ray DeWick]

The way I have been looking at it is that the threshold of the companyonway has kept its position, the corners of the cabin and adjacent deck has sagged down. That lowers the deck outside the comings and the corners of the cockpit seats so puddles form in both places. Also this will widen the top of the companyonway so the top board falls out but the bottom board fits ok.



RDEWICK@ebmail.gdeb.com

[Brian McGowan]

I would be very interested in how this works for "FALCON". I've got the same problem on my '76 CD25 #372. It does not appear that it has gotten any worse over the four years I've owned the boat. Ray D has identified the problem correctly, that is that the top of companion way has spread outward as the side deck saged downward where they meet. The top board would indicate a 3/4 inch spread. No other part of the bridge or cockpit has shifted. I would think these two points either side of the cabin, are the only ones you would want to move. To respond to Oswego John (Hi John, we were suppose to get our first lake effort snow today but nothing so far -Lake temp is 42.)I don't think the beam has been affected by this,it's not noticable on 'Zephyrus', the sage is all in the 4-6 inches of the side deck.
Let us know how it works out for you. There is nothing I could do till spring so.. good luck. Thanks for the posting and possible solution.
Brian -Great Lakes Fleet
On the hard in Buffalo awaiting our first snow.

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. : S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

bmcgow@buffaloNOSPAM.com

[Kurt]

Fiberglass DOES have memory. My 1984 CD26 sat on the hard for several years before I purchased it in 1991. It's wooden had sagged during this time and pushed the poppets into the hull causing six 1/4" depressions to form in the fiberglass. I used this as a bargaining chip to get the seller to lower the price. Much to my surprise, within about 24 months the hull returned to it's orginal shape.

[JimL]

I made a jack rig to fix my CD25 with a similar method. I used 2 pieces of 2" aluminum angle (make the upper one about 1-2" longer than the lower). Use 2 stainless steel turnbuckles (eye-to-eye type purchased at industrial hardware). Bolt the turn buckles into the vertical sides of the angle stock, near the ends. The lower piece of angle stock rests on the hull pan, just behind the "bulkhead" and the longer upper piece pushes up against the forward lower corner of the cockpit sole (tranverse the centerline).

The turnbuckles angle out slightly, narrower at the bottom, to force the aluminum angle stock to remain parallel (if you make them push vertical, the upper or lower plate will try to slip sideways under load and flexing). Extend the turnbuckles to increase tension, gradually lifting the forward end of the cockpit sole.

I must emphasize the opposing angles for the turnbuckles. This forces the jack to "self-triangulate". This rig is still in my old boat, now owned by Jan Sieben. If necessary, we can get a picture under Jan's cockpit sole.

Regards, JimL



leinfam@earthlink.net

[S. Calder]

Oswego John: Thanks for the support (no pun intended). I do plan to leave the 6 jacks in place permanently. They are hidden from view against the aft quarter berth partition and are attached to a wood beam running abeam beneath the bridge deck, at the upper aspect, and to the laminated "tab" that runs through the berth base board down to the hull. So it's all quite permanent...and adjustable. And it is very stabile. I appreciate your comments and I plan to carry on with the experiment. I will post my progress though I don't plan to raise it further until the weather in Colorado warms up in the Spring. Meanwhile, I'll post some photos if I can figure out how. Thanks for the encouragement. S. Calder

Hi S,

While reading your post, I had a smile on my face. For being a lawyer, you seem to have a pretty good grasp on the sagging deck problem and what causes it.

You touched on, in my estimation, the main cause when you referred to a WEIGHT BEARING partition or bulkhead. Anytime that there is an accumulation of unsupported weight without proper support, sagging is inevitable.

Some people have disagreed with my thought in the past, but I maintain that fibreglass has some memory and will have a tendency to return, somewhat, to the original position as when it was manufactured. I think that moderate jacking is a viable solution.

What I am trying to figure out is if you are going to leave the six jacks in place permanently or are they being used soley to return the decks to their original position and then install a permanent system of support to bolster the unsupported bulkhead. I feel that you have to add some sort of permanent support. If it sagged once, it should sag again unless you remedy the situation. It seems that gravity is an ongoing battle.

It seems to me that you have a plan. I think that you should follow the plan, as stated, and elevate the decks in small increments. A little ambient heat couldn't hurt. I don't recommend trying it outdoors in winter, high in the Rockies. Good luck.

Oswego John
PS: A few pictures would be nice.
Let us know how you are making out.

I've owned my CD25 for 6 months and noticed sagging of the side decks adjacent to the forward end of the coamings...water pooling etc. I read many postings on this board about the problem and possible solutions. I'm no engineer, in fact I'm nothing but a damn lawyer, but I came up with a solution I thought I'd share with anybody who is interested and maybe get some feed back. I'll give a thumbnail description first, then the details, if you can suffer my drivel. [The problem is that Cape Dory 25s don't have a weight-bearing bulkhead beneath the companionway to support the bridge deck, companionway, the aft part of the cabin, and the forward part of the cockpit. So, like some women I know...well, you get the picture. If you look at the partition between the aft of the quarter berth and the cockpit lockers, you'll see that it doesn't rest on the hull nor make contact with the decks above it.]

What I did is permanently install 6 adjustable "jacks" between the underside of the bridge deck and the hull, aft of the quarter berths, and I plan to gradually raise the bridge deck (1/16th " at a time)a total of an inch or so, and with it hopefully raise the companionway, bridge deck, and restore outward slope to the side decks. I just finished the installation today so I've just started raising it, maybe 1/4 " so far, and the side decks are already starting to even out. If that is of interest to you, or maybe your side decks sag [if you're lucky that's all of yours that sags]then please trudge on 'cause I could use your feed-back.

Now for the details: First I built the 6 "jacks" out of 3/4" copper pipe and fittings using sweat-soldering like plumbers use. If you're interested in the specs let me know and I'll bring tears to your eyes with those details separately. These jacks are based on the same principle as the jacks used in house construction to support the steel "I" beams under the floor from the footings...a hollow pipe with a threaded bar running through it to make it adjustable. I used 1/2" threaded bar and a nut for adjusting its length. I then mounted a treated wood 2" by 2" board 26" long under the bridge deck running abeam of the companion way on both sides, just above the top of the so-called "bulkhead" that separates the aft end of the quarter berths from the cockpit lockers. All this stuff I installed on the cabin side. I used "Liquid nails" to hold them in place until the jacks were positioned, but 7200 adhesive or such would work better in the humidity of the coast. I'm in a hight mountain lake in Colorado so humidity isn't a factor. Anyway, I then fashioned a board that would rest on the hull, rise above the level of the berth base-board, onto which I could set the jacks and thus have an adjustable structural link from the hill to the bridge deck. This board I made of four thicknesses of 1/2" plywood laminated and bolted together. The port board resembled the State of Indiana in that the top is level, the sides perpendicular, and the bottom contoured to the curve of the hull at the location just under the previously mentioned "bulkhead". The starboard side board is the mirror image. I cut a rectangular hole in the aft end of the plywood berth base board the size of the laminated wood board or "tab" (I'll call it). The contour was arrived at by taking measurements at specific intervals to get the curvature of the hull beneath. Note: there is hull liner just below this area so you aren't really in contact with the hull, but the liner rests right on the hull at this point, so good structural support is achieved.

After bonding the "tab" to the hull [liner], I set the 6 jacks (3 on the port side and 3 on the starboard side) in place between the "tab" board and the 2 by 2. Before installation, I had drilled 3/4" holes to receive the jacks in a sort of "socket" to keep them from dislodging under tension. The jacks "fan out" with the left and right ones leading up and outward at about a 10 degree angle and the center one straight up. The jacks are 10" long contracted, and extend to a useful length of about 14". Finally, I drilled small holes through the lower "socket" and fixed the threaded bar with a pin so that it would not turn when I turned the nut during adjustment.

Then you simply adjust the jacks a bit at a time to allow the fiberglass to slowly flex and hopefully not crack. Warm weather helps too.

I would like to know from anybody hard-up enough to read this dissertation, whether you think it unwise to try and adjust the sagging out and restore the outward slope of the original side decks, or should I just tension the jacks enough to provide support so the decks don't sag any further and leav well enough alone? What horrors await me? I'm notorious for "not leaving well enough alone". Thanks.

S. Calder, CD25 569 "Falcon"

spcalder@msn.com

[Didereaux]

>snip<

I must emphasize the opposing angles for the turnbuckles. This forces the jack to "self-triangulate". This rig is still in my old boat, now owned by Jan Sieben. If necessary, we can get a picture under Jan's cockpit sole.

Regards, JimL

Jim,
If possible please do post the pics. My visualation mechanism is mal-functioning.

didereaux

[Bruce Bett]

Jim:

Did you actually push the decks up enough to get drainage just forward of the cockpit combings? If so did you notice any effect on the opening at the top of the companionway? I'm still having trouble reconciling the twin phenomena of the deck sagging and the companionway spreading.

Is there anyone out there who has a long enough memory of these boats to confirm or deny my suspicion, hinted at in an earlier post, that the deck may not be sagging at all, but was built with inadequate camber in the first place?

Bruce Bett
Sostenuto
CD25 #496

I made a jack rig to fix my CD25 with a similar method. I used 2 pieces of 2" aluminum angle (make the upper one about 1-2" longer than the lower). Use 2 stainless steel turnbuckles (eye-to-eye type purchased at industrial hardware). Bolt the turn buckles into the vertical sides of the angle stock, near the ends. The lower piece of angle stock rests on the hull pan, just behind the "bulkhead" and the longer upper piece pushes up against the forward lower corner of the cockpit sole (tranverse the centerline).

The turnbuckles angle out slightly, narrower at the bottom, to force the aluminum angle stock to remain parallel (if you make them push vertical, the upper or lower plate will try to slip sideways under load and flexing). Extend the turnbuckles to increase tension, gradually lifting the forward end of the cockpit sole.

I must emphasize the opposing angles for the turnbuckles. This forces the jack to "self-triangulate". This rig is still in my old boat, now owned by Jan Sieben. If necessary, we can get a picture under Jan's cockpit sole.

Regards, JimL

Bettb@macomb.edu

[JimL]

I was able to raise the cockpit sole only a very small amount, but the stiffening effect was really good. It feels much more secure when coming down off the cabin top after reefing, because the cockpit area no longer feels springy. I imagine the later "bridge deck" models are better.

As far as the companionway shape or side deck shape, I suspect that condition happened pretty soon after the decks came out of the mold and were installed on the hull. In cool, damp, weather I've pulled parts from the mold after 24 hours and found them warping out of shape....due to very slow cure. It's also a problem when the last layup doesn't have enough styrene wax mixed in.

I'll try to get a picture next week, when I'm in Ventura. It's a 100 mile drive, so I don't get there more than once a week.

Regards, JimL



leinfam@earthlink.net

[Bruce Bett]

Thanks Jim:

I look forward to seeing the pictures and hearing any new Ideas you have. Your comments reinforce my suspicion that the best approach here is not to try to force the boat "back" to the shape we think it should have had originally, but to strengthen and stabilize it where it is. Hope you get a good sail in Ventura.

Bruce
On the Hard in Detroit

I was able to raise the cockpit sole only a very small amount, but the stiffening effect was really good. It feels much more secure when coming down off the cabin top after reefing, because the cockpit area no longer feels springy. I imagine the later "bridge deck" models are better.

As far as the companionway shape or side deck shape, I suspect that condition happened pretty soon after the decks came out of the mold and were installed on the hull. In cool, damp, weather I've pulled parts from the mold after 24 hours and found them warping out of shape....due to very slow cure. It's also a problem when the last layup doesn't have enough styrene wax mixed in.

I'll try to get a picture next week, when I'm in Ventura. It's a 100 mile drive, so I don't get there more than once a week.

Regards, JimL

bettb@macomb.edu