I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Lou Ostendorff
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Hello Warren;
While you've no doubt discovered that repowering with a new Yanmar is not the 'Sine Qua Non' of sailing...having a new, or rebuilt engine with enough power to move thru the winds and chop does have its advantages and definitely lowers anxiety levels. Your quote for repower is not out of line...Karma had a new Yanmar 1GM10 installed in 1997 by a well known boatyard down here in good 'ole NC (read: lower prices in the South) for the princely sum of about $10,000 !!! Now, I wasn't the one who paid for it, but I was the benefactor, because Karma sold for not much more than the going rate at the time. You'll never recover your money...so you have to decide if it's worth it to keep the boat for the long haul. Others have taken the 'plunge' and were happy with the results, but again, it's not cheap if done right. Good Luck with your decision!
Lou Ostendorff
CD25D Karma
Hailing Port: Oriental, NC ('cause I like the name)
louosten@ipass.net
While you've no doubt discovered that repowering with a new Yanmar is not the 'Sine Qua Non' of sailing...having a new, or rebuilt engine with enough power to move thru the winds and chop does have its advantages and definitely lowers anxiety levels. Your quote for repower is not out of line...Karma had a new Yanmar 1GM10 installed in 1997 by a well known boatyard down here in good 'ole NC (read: lower prices in the South) for the princely sum of about $10,000 !!! Now, I wasn't the one who paid for it, but I was the benefactor, because Karma sold for not much more than the going rate at the time. You'll never recover your money...so you have to decide if it's worth it to keep the boat for the long haul. Others have taken the 'plunge' and were happy with the results, but again, it's not cheap if done right. Good Luck with your decision!
Lou Ostendorff
CD25D Karma
Hailing Port: Oriental, NC ('cause I like the name)
louosten@ipass.net
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Clay Stalker
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Hi there Warren:Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
You bring up an interesting issue that is on the minds of many of us sailing older boats. I suspect your price is about right considering the rebuild of the beds, new thru hulls etc. Oldport Marine in Newport quoted me around 10,000 for the same installation, but I wouldn't need the bed rebuilt or new thru-hulls. I suspect that this new engine would make your boat worth another 2-3,000 when you sell it, but probably no more. Soooo....you should probably plan to keep the boat for the long haul (5-10 years) if you invest this money....another option might be a rebuild of current engine...much less, but some will advise against putting any money into this particular engine....I have a 1982 Yanmar 2GM (13 HP) in Salsa, and, even though it is running real well, I am well aware that is it a 20-year old engine so I have begun to think about the future. I might consider a rebuild because it has adequate power, but some suggest that a rebuild of a raw-water cooled engine is not a good investment....I just don't know. I suppose the best thing would be to purchase a larger boat that has already been repowered, but I really like the CD27 because it is still small enough to sail alone easily and maintain, but can handle most big-boat situations, at least those I will be doing....tough question all around, Warren. I guess you will have to decide if you plan to keep the boat for a long time...that will drive your decision. If not, then don't do anything right now if she's running well, start saving some money, and plan to move up in the future, letting the new owner of your boat repower her...Good luck, and I will be interested in hearing how it all goes....I will share what I'm doing (or not doing) as well. Happy fall!!
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol, R.I.
cstalker@cheshire.net
-
craig
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
WarrenWarren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
I would do this ONLY if i were in love with the boat and was going to keep it for at least 10 yrs. As an option, on yachtworld.com there is a later model 27(maybe 1983) with a 13hp westerbeke for about 24k. offer them 21-22 as it has been there awhile, sell yours and its over. craig
shavdog@aol.com
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Chris Scheck
Thoughts on repowering ...
Warren -
you have written a well thought out account of the dilemma anyone faces about making a big improvement to an older boat or car. Hobby projects, like boats and antique cars, can eat up a lot more time and money than they will ever return. Take a look at Hemmings Motor News ... there are hundreds of project cars for sale at $20,000 that had $35,000 invested. At the lower end of the scale, we just had a similar experience with a 1989 Honda Accord. Needed a new clutch, bad. And CV joints. Quote of $800. Of course, after the car was taken apart, and a few other things needed fixing, the job came out to be $1100. The day the repairs were finished, we found a deal on a 1998 Toyota that was too good to pass up. Now we're trying to sell the Accord. Edmonds' says it should bring $2400 in a private party transaction. (The car is in superb condition, no rust, perfect interior, 147,000 miles) After 6 weeks of advertising, we're down to $1950 -- still no takers.
So what are the lessons? The bigger the expenditure you're contemplating and the older the vehicle, the bigger your risk. What if something unexpected happens? What if you need to sell the boat the year after you invest all this money? Unfortunately, the market can be very cruel. Buyers want to pay market price, no matter how well your prized possession has been maintained. No matter how much satisfaction and pride of ownership and dependability you get from your beloved boat, the market is very unsentimental.
As you suggested, I think you'd be better off selling your boat and taking that $12,000 and going off looking for a bigger, newer boat. Or another older boat that's already been repowered. Good luck, whatever you do.
Chris Scheck
RAGTIME CD33
Newport
cscheck@aol.com
you have written a well thought out account of the dilemma anyone faces about making a big improvement to an older boat or car. Hobby projects, like boats and antique cars, can eat up a lot more time and money than they will ever return. Take a look at Hemmings Motor News ... there are hundreds of project cars for sale at $20,000 that had $35,000 invested. At the lower end of the scale, we just had a similar experience with a 1989 Honda Accord. Needed a new clutch, bad. And CV joints. Quote of $800. Of course, after the car was taken apart, and a few other things needed fixing, the job came out to be $1100. The day the repairs were finished, we found a deal on a 1998 Toyota that was too good to pass up. Now we're trying to sell the Accord. Edmonds' says it should bring $2400 in a private party transaction. (The car is in superb condition, no rust, perfect interior, 147,000 miles) After 6 weeks of advertising, we're down to $1950 -- still no takers.
So what are the lessons? The bigger the expenditure you're contemplating and the older the vehicle, the bigger your risk. What if something unexpected happens? What if you need to sell the boat the year after you invest all this money? Unfortunately, the market can be very cruel. Buyers want to pay market price, no matter how well your prized possession has been maintained. No matter how much satisfaction and pride of ownership and dependability you get from your beloved boat, the market is very unsentimental.
As you suggested, I think you'd be better off selling your boat and taking that $12,000 and going off looking for a bigger, newer boat. Or another older boat that's already been repowered. Good luck, whatever you do.
Chris Scheck
RAGTIME CD33
Newport
cscheck@aol.com
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Patrick Turner
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
The quote sounds just a tad high (do they have to completely rebuild the engine bed?), but you still bring up a really good point and it's a question we probably all at some point have to ask ourselves as we're fixing these older boats up - "when is enought.....just too much?". It's a question that has no real universal answer unfortunately, cuz it really boils down to whatever your comfortable with.....not much help probably.
There was an article a couple of years back in Practical Sailor that compared the cost of ownership of a brand new boat and a used boat that needed upgrading. They took everything into consideration; depreciation of the new boat, costs of upgrading, repairing,maintenance, etc.. If I remember correctly the amount of unrecouped money when the boats were sold on the open market was about the same! There were benefits to both ways of doing it , but the bottom line was about the same.
Sounds like if you could sell your boat for the average going price for a CD27 and throw another $12-15k, you'd be just about in the middle of what a early/mid 1980's CD30 in good condition is going for these days. That's a really nice boat, but I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new when I say that it all just gets more expensive as you go up. Plus it sounds like you have a boat right now that you've got pretty much where you want it (if that's ever entirely possible). Is pulling the old engine out and completely rebuilding it out of the question?
If the boat you have now pretty much meets your wants and needs and you have no real desire (or the means $$) for buying and maintaining a bigger boat, then putting a little more money (maybe not $12k) into your boat to keep it that way seems reasonable, but if you feel that somewhere in the not-too-distant future you would like to try something that is a little bigger, then you might just keep this one real healthy for another season or two and reconsider.
Just my 2 cents (having spent way too much on my own boat!)
Pat Turner
CD36 "Salt Shaker"
San Francisco Bay
patrick.t@attbi.com
There was an article a couple of years back in Practical Sailor that compared the cost of ownership of a brand new boat and a used boat that needed upgrading. They took everything into consideration; depreciation of the new boat, costs of upgrading, repairing,maintenance, etc.. If I remember correctly the amount of unrecouped money when the boats were sold on the open market was about the same! There were benefits to both ways of doing it , but the bottom line was about the same.
Sounds like if you could sell your boat for the average going price for a CD27 and throw another $12-15k, you'd be just about in the middle of what a early/mid 1980's CD30 in good condition is going for these days. That's a really nice boat, but I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new when I say that it all just gets more expensive as you go up. Plus it sounds like you have a boat right now that you've got pretty much where you want it (if that's ever entirely possible). Is pulling the old engine out and completely rebuilding it out of the question?
If the boat you have now pretty much meets your wants and needs and you have no real desire (or the means $$) for buying and maintaining a bigger boat, then putting a little more money (maybe not $12k) into your boat to keep it that way seems reasonable, but if you feel that somewhere in the not-too-distant future you would like to try something that is a little bigger, then you might just keep this one real healthy for another season or two and reconsider.
Just my 2 cents (having spent way too much on my own boat!)
Pat Turner
CD36 "Salt Shaker"
San Francisco Bay
patrick.t@attbi.com
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Richard Hill
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Warren,
I repowered my Bristol 32 Liberty a couple of years ago and did the work myself - almost (I had a very handy friend help with the new engine bed). I recommend that you consider repowering if you want to keep the boat for a while, but look into doing some of the work yourself. You can certainly install new thru-hull fittings and seacocks, run new hoses, etc. I learned that a lot of these skills are easier than I expected them to be. At worst, you can always pay the yard to fix anything you screw up, and at best, you'll do as good a job, or better, than they will. A grand in tax?!!! Wow! Is there somewhere nearby with lower rates?
Don Casey's books give you a good background for doing the glass repair work - I used West Ecpoxy, roving, cloth and fillers, and did a good job filling old holes. You need a good 4 inch grinder and some patience. The repower job turned out great in my case. I replaced an old Atomic 4 with a Volvo MD 2020 which has run smoothly and given great service. Shaft replacement, cutlass bearing replacement, etc. are also easy to do, and give you a great understanding of your boat. And, you can reduce the cost of your job! Good luck.
captrahill@comcast.net
I repowered my Bristol 32 Liberty a couple of years ago and did the work myself - almost (I had a very handy friend help with the new engine bed). I recommend that you consider repowering if you want to keep the boat for a while, but look into doing some of the work yourself. You can certainly install new thru-hull fittings and seacocks, run new hoses, etc. I learned that a lot of these skills are easier than I expected them to be. At worst, you can always pay the yard to fix anything you screw up, and at best, you'll do as good a job, or better, than they will. A grand in tax?!!! Wow! Is there somewhere nearby with lower rates?
Don Casey's books give you a good background for doing the glass repair work - I used West Ecpoxy, roving, cloth and fillers, and did a good job filling old holes. You need a good 4 inch grinder and some patience. The repower job turned out great in my case. I replaced an old Atomic 4 with a Volvo MD 2020 which has run smoothly and given great service. Shaft replacement, cutlass bearing replacement, etc. are also easy to do, and give you a great understanding of your boat. And, you can reduce the cost of your job! Good luck.
Warren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
captrahill@comcast.net
-
Clay Stalker
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Good suggestion, Craig, but remember that the Westebeke is 19 years old...would really depend on the condition....craig wrote:WarrenWarren Kaplan wrote: I am (was!) seriously considering repowering my CD27. Right now it has a YSM8 which is 22 years old and is underpowered for the boat when the going gets rough.I wanted to replace it with a Yanmar 2GM20F.
I figured to get it done this winter so I asked my yard manager to give me a quote for the job. I just got it today. Now the quote I'm going to give you is for the entire job. The quote was VERY detailed..right down to bolts, sealants and brushes. It includes taking out the old engine and ripping out the old engine bed. Building a brand new engine bed. New thru hulls, sealing old holes from old thru hulls. New prop, shaft, cutlass bearing, hoses, strainers, seacocks,exhaust outlets..right down to the tyvek suits and respirator masks the workmen will have to wear. VERY detailed. The cost of a new Yanmar 2GM20F alone is $5750.00. That's in the ballpark with everywhere I checked. Now, when I get down to the bottom of this TWO PAGE quote it reads..Ta Da!...12,652.04!! Of course that includes $991.17 tax! GULP!! I was prepared to go to about 10K. But this is way too much. This is a CD27. Its just too much to invest in this boat. I'd rather sell the boat (reluctantly) and take what I get from the sale and add the $12.6K to it and put it down on another, larger Cape Dory.
Last year the price I believe was somewhat less. But I didn't get a detailed quote so it may have been the same. These guys I know are on the expensive side but they aren't rip off artists. I check their prices on other work and they are definitely in the ballpark. They also do very good work.
So here's a question. Everyone knows that we all invest much more in dollars in our boats then we ever hope to recoup at sale. But surely there comes a point when spending big bucks relative to the value of the boat becomes, shall we say, foolhearty. I paid 21K for my boat a few years ago and I've put PLENTY of money into it. I love it. But my boat has run with a YSM8 for 22 years and its still running well, if I steadfastly take care of maintenance during the season. Would any of you spend that kind of money on a relative basis if the boat worked without the improvement. In other words if the engine absolutely died, I'd have no choice but that's not the case. What do you think?
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
Cd27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
I would do this ONLY if i were in love with the boat and was going to keep it for at least 10 yrs. As an option, on yachtworld.com there is a later model 27(maybe 1983) with a 13hp westerbeke for about 24k. offer them 21-22 as it has been there awhile, sell yours and its over. craig
cstalker@cheshire.net
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
All the opinions are things that I have mulled over in my mind. My feeling, as of this time anyway, is that unless my life style changes sufficiently so that I get lots more sailing time available to me, I'll probably stick with Sine Qua Non for a very long time. That's not an "aw shucks" situation either. I just love the boat and I am not looking to part with her. But this engine job amounts to 60% of the boats purchase price (12.6K on a 21K original purchase price). The question then becomes would I be happier sailing in SQN with a new engine, or, would I be happier spending approximately the same amount of money and get more boat. I realize that everything involved with a larger boat costs more, but that aside, its sometimes difficult to decide which is the wiser move.
My brother had an interesting view on something like this. He felt no joy when he took his car in and got a set of new tires. He'd say, " I had tires when I drove the car into the shop. I've got tires when I drove out. I don't feel like I've gained anything because I already had tires. All I know is I spent a lot of money".
Well, I already have an engine that works. True a new engine will be more powerful, but its still something I already have. Now, if I bought a tiller pilot or a magma grill to hand from the stern rail, that would be something I didn't already have! (HA!) That would "seem" worth the money!!
I'm pretty sure Julie and I will stick with what we have for the coming season. Next year.....well, who can tell about next year?
Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
Sinne Qua Non
CD27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
My brother had an interesting view on something like this. He felt no joy when he took his car in and got a set of new tires. He'd say, " I had tires when I drove the car into the shop. I've got tires when I drove out. I don't feel like I've gained anything because I already had tires. All I know is I spent a lot of money".
Well, I already have an engine that works. True a new engine will be more powerful, but its still something I already have. Now, if I bought a tiller pilot or a magma grill to hand from the stern rail, that would be something I didn't already have! (HA!) That would "seem" worth the money!!
I'm pretty sure Julie and I will stick with what we have for the coming season. Next year.....well, who can tell about next year?
Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
Sinne Qua Non
CD27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Setsail728@aol.com
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Dennis
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Oh Warren,
I have been looking into this also. $12k OUCH.
The early/mid 1980's CD30 in good condition that Pat mentions has a 15-20 yr old engine also (unless it has been repowered). What have we gained? repower a larger engine in 5 years? If you don't repower now and sell SQN in a few years, what is a boat worth with a really useless engine?
Obviously, I don't have the answer, nor can I give any real advise. But I do feel your pain.
Dennis
Ladybug
CD28 #125
original engine still plugging along
dennis.driscoll@roche.com
I have been looking into this also. $12k OUCH.
The early/mid 1980's CD30 in good condition that Pat mentions has a 15-20 yr old engine also (unless it has been repowered). What have we gained? repower a larger engine in 5 years? If you don't repower now and sell SQN in a few years, what is a boat worth with a really useless engine?
Obviously, I don't have the answer, nor can I give any real advise. But I do feel your pain.
Dennis
Ladybug
CD28 #125
original engine still plugging along
dennis.driscoll@roche.com
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Clay Stalker
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Warren:Warren Kaplan wrote: All the opinions are things that I have mulled over in my mind. My feeling, as of this time anyway, is that unless my life style changes sufficiently so that I get lots more sailing time available to me, I'll probably stick with Sine Qua Non for a very long time. That's not an "aw shucks" situation either. I just love the boat and I am not looking to part with her. But this engine job amounts to 60% of the boats purchase price (12.6K on a 21K original purchase price). The question then becomes would I be happier sailing in SQN with a new engine, or, would I be happier spending approximately the same amount of money and get more boat. I realize that everything involved with a larger boat costs more, but that aside, its sometimes difficult to decide which is the wiser move.
My brother had an interesting view on something like this. He felt no joy when he took his car in and got a set of new tires. He'd say, " I had tires when I drove the car into the shop. I've got tires when I drove out. I don't feel like I've gained anything because I already had tires. All I know is I spent a lot of money".
Well, I already have an engine that works. True a new engine will be more powerful, but its still something I already have. Now, if I bought a tiller pilot or a magma grill to hand from the stern rail, that would be something I didn't already have! (HA!) That would "seem" worth the money!!
I'm pretty sure Julie and I will stick with what we have for the coming season. Next year.....well, who can tell about next year?
Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
Sinne Qua Non
CD27
Oyster Bay Harbor, NY
Go for the Magma...I couldn't function without mine....
Clay Stalker
cstalker@cheshire.net
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jim stull
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Hi Warren
You pose a question that I have thought carefully about. I don't think there is a universal answer to your question. As you know, I am in the last stages of a hull up rebuild/upgrade of a rundown CD27 purchased with this in mind. We have installed a new Yanmar2GM20F ourselves in the boat. I believe the dealer that we purchased the engine from mentioned that they charge $10k for this job.
Our decision to pour money into an old rundown CD27 was based on the following:
1. This will be our last boat. Really! Honest!
2. We plan to cruise the boat.
2. It is important to us to be able to move the boat if we wish. The Cd27 is about the biggest boat in this category. (8'6" beam). We had a trailer built and hauled the boat home from Maine to PA.
3 .We want the most seaworthy boat we can find that is owner transportable.
4. We don't want to be constantly "fixing things" or worse yet having problems under duress conditions.
5. The potential candidates, a new Nor’sea 27 or a smaller Pacific Seacraft or a custom boat will cost $75 to $100+k. A used one will not answer point 4.
6. Except for the hull, mast, boom and a few other minor pieces, everything on the boat will be new. We have stripped the hull and gone over every inch and it is now better than when it left the factory. All the systems will be state of the art and will include equipment like refrigeration, Ham/SSB, stereo/MP3 etc.
7. I like doing the work.
The completed project is coming in at about $36K. A lot of money for a CD27 but no where can I find a boat that meets all the above criteria for this much money. Even looking at quality new boats , the gear and workmanship is far from perfect. You may get Corian counter tops but chopper gun built hulls, no real seacocks, holes that penetrate the deck that are poorly sealed. Non stainless clamps etc, etc.
The boat is a very large part of our life , we spend a lot of time with it, thus it is worth the investment to us. If the boat is just one thing among many other interests probably dumping it and getting a “better” one would make more sense.
One final comment; we also have a CD25, which we rebuilt 7 years ago. We had it resurveyed and an appraisal done for insurance purposes when we had it in the FL Keys a couple of years ago. The surveyor ( very crabby old fellow) valued it at $32k. We have a lot of sweat equity and about $12k invested in it. I have had people who have heard about the boat come look it up and make me offers. Based on the unsolicited offers we have had, it would seem we could recoup the money we have invested but not the value of our labor. But that’s OK because we have had several years of great, trouble free use of the boat. Nothing is free!
jandmstull@earthlink.net
You pose a question that I have thought carefully about. I don't think there is a universal answer to your question. As you know, I am in the last stages of a hull up rebuild/upgrade of a rundown CD27 purchased with this in mind. We have installed a new Yanmar2GM20F ourselves in the boat. I believe the dealer that we purchased the engine from mentioned that they charge $10k for this job.
Our decision to pour money into an old rundown CD27 was based on the following:
1. This will be our last boat. Really! Honest!
2. We plan to cruise the boat.
2. It is important to us to be able to move the boat if we wish. The Cd27 is about the biggest boat in this category. (8'6" beam). We had a trailer built and hauled the boat home from Maine to PA.
3 .We want the most seaworthy boat we can find that is owner transportable.
4. We don't want to be constantly "fixing things" or worse yet having problems under duress conditions.
5. The potential candidates, a new Nor’sea 27 or a smaller Pacific Seacraft or a custom boat will cost $75 to $100+k. A used one will not answer point 4.
6. Except for the hull, mast, boom and a few other minor pieces, everything on the boat will be new. We have stripped the hull and gone over every inch and it is now better than when it left the factory. All the systems will be state of the art and will include equipment like refrigeration, Ham/SSB, stereo/MP3 etc.
7. I like doing the work.
The completed project is coming in at about $36K. A lot of money for a CD27 but no where can I find a boat that meets all the above criteria for this much money. Even looking at quality new boats , the gear and workmanship is far from perfect. You may get Corian counter tops but chopper gun built hulls, no real seacocks, holes that penetrate the deck that are poorly sealed. Non stainless clamps etc, etc.
The boat is a very large part of our life , we spend a lot of time with it, thus it is worth the investment to us. If the boat is just one thing among many other interests probably dumping it and getting a “better” one would make more sense.
One final comment; we also have a CD25, which we rebuilt 7 years ago. We had it resurveyed and an appraisal done for insurance purposes when we had it in the FL Keys a couple of years ago. The surveyor ( very crabby old fellow) valued it at $32k. We have a lot of sweat equity and about $12k invested in it. I have had people who have heard about the boat come look it up and make me offers. Based on the unsolicited offers we have had, it would seem we could recoup the money we have invested but not the value of our labor. But that’s OK because we have had several years of great, trouble free use of the boat. Nothing is free!
jandmstull@earthlink.net
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Kurt
Have you gotten other estimates?
How much of the estimate was for labor? And what's your yard's hourly rate? I'd shop around and try to get other estimates...does your yard really want to do the job? Some contractors can become overburdened with work will write very high estimates because they've already got too much on their plate. Maybe you could find a reputable mechanic that's got less overhead and more hunger for work?
kjlgpw@aol.com
kjlgpw@aol.com
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: When Repowering Costs Too Much!
Warren,
Do you really need a new prop shaft? By the way, does the quote include a new transmission? A new engine will probably require that too. And if you're at all handy and have the time, you could opt to do some of the work yourself. Anyway, it's just a thought.
We were faced with the decision to either repower or rebuild the Westerbeke 21A in our CD32 in 1996 after one of the gaskets went and seawater found its way into the engine causing major damage. To make a long story short, we had the option of a new Westerbeke or a new Yanmar or to rebuild what was there. At that time, a new engine would have cost us over $5000 plus all the extras (transmission, thruhulls, everything you mentioned in your quote) and installation costs. We opted to have the old Westerbeke 21A rebuilt and to have the yard do the work. And the rebuild job cost us a little less than $5000. The engine runs reliably and doesn't have any problems pushing the boat (it didn't before it was rebuilt either).
Is the boat really underpowered with its current powerplant? Would it still be underpowered if it were reconditioned? Does anyone remember if they thought their CD27's with your model engine were underpowered when new? Hopefully you'll get some responses regarding this.
Anyway, you may only need to rebuild the engine. This means replacing just about everything. And make sure you replace the waterjacket too.
Also, when powering into snot, have you tried assiting the engine by putting a little bit of sail out there?
Good luck.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
Do you really need a new prop shaft? By the way, does the quote include a new transmission? A new engine will probably require that too. And if you're at all handy and have the time, you could opt to do some of the work yourself. Anyway, it's just a thought.
We were faced with the decision to either repower or rebuild the Westerbeke 21A in our CD32 in 1996 after one of the gaskets went and seawater found its way into the engine causing major damage. To make a long story short, we had the option of a new Westerbeke or a new Yanmar or to rebuild what was there. At that time, a new engine would have cost us over $5000 plus all the extras (transmission, thruhulls, everything you mentioned in your quote) and installation costs. We opted to have the old Westerbeke 21A rebuilt and to have the yard do the work. And the rebuild job cost us a little less than $5000. The engine runs reliably and doesn't have any problems pushing the boat (it didn't before it was rebuilt either).
Is the boat really underpowered with its current powerplant? Would it still be underpowered if it were reconditioned? Does anyone remember if they thought their CD27's with your model engine were underpowered when new? Hopefully you'll get some responses regarding this.
Anyway, you may only need to rebuild the engine. This means replacing just about everything. And make sure you replace the waterjacket too.
Also, when powering into snot, have you tried assiting the engine by putting a little bit of sail out there?
Good luck.
Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com