Vector Charts - Anyone Using Them?

[Ken Coit]

After finding that trying to read charts in a hurry while underway can be detrimental to good relations with the First Mate and, further, detrimental to the safety of the vessel and crew, I am considering some sort of an upgrade, not to replace paper charts, but to make them readable. I think heading up charts are a good idea, but although those paper charts can be turned to accomodate the heading, I am hardly ever headed North and the lettering becomes even more of a challenge when upside down or on its side than it is already.

Lots of electronic charts come in raster scan technoloy, but they suffer from the same heading up problem as the paper charts: lettering is scanned as well and can be upside down. Nobeltec provides vector technology charts, and raster as well; is anyone using them and hating it? Loving it? Are there others I should consider?

I am thinking of computerized nav simply because I want to be able to plan my next near disaster ahead of time. Planning with a boat-based chart plotter seems a waste of boat time to me. Comments?

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC



parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[Ed Haley]

Ken:
I have the Visual Navigation Series 6.5 with both vector charts and raster charts and use them aboard my boat. However, I keep my PC down below and check it for reference occasionally while underway. I still use paper charts in the cockpit and have found that I still favor paper charts for direct navigation. I have no problems with North up orientation and prefer that even on my computer.

Unless you have a special PC that is capable of being read in sunlight, it is difficult at best to view the screen on a PC. Sometimes it's almost impossible to find the pointer!

A real distraction is while navigating near the border of the vector chart area. It may suddently disappear and leave you with no features on it at all. Passport's vector chart of Lake Ontario only covers the US side (unbelievable) while CDI offers the whole Lake in raster chart. It's tough to switch gears (vector to raster) in bright daylight trying to find the pointer and click on the right button as you approach shallow waters. That's even with quilting turned on.

All in all I find it a great tool for planning and OK for navigation. Like you said, don't leave the paper charts at home.

Ed Haley
s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Kingston, ON



eghaley(NOSPAM)@twcny.rr.com

[Allen Evans]

I have Nobeltec's Visual Navigation Suite 5.0 on my home computer with Passport vector charts. It is good for advance planning of a trip ... lay out the route, mark the waypoints, upload to a Garmin 48 handheld. It also enables you to include current set and drift arrows on the chart so you can pick departure times for most favorable currents.

However, I far prefer the paper charts on the boat. With the software charting and plotting, I find it difficult to maintain a sense of orientation to my general surroundings. If I zoom in to see enough detail (navaids, depths, etc.) to be useful, the area covered is so small that I can't tell where in the world I am. Zoom out to get the bigger picture and you lose meaningful detail. With paper charts, I can readily zoom both ways without losing my bearings and sense of location.

Allen Evans
Fleet Captain, CDSOA Chesapeake
Whisper, CD 36
Whisper, Bristol 45.5
Sailing & Hailing from Solomons Island, MD



adevans@att.net

[charlie palumbo]

After finding that trying to read charts in a hurry while underway can be detrimental to good relations with the First Mate and, further, detrimental to the safety of the vessel and crew, I am considering some sort of an upgrade, not to replace paper charts, but to make them readable. I think heading up charts are a good idea, but although those paper charts can be turned to accomodate the heading, I am hardly ever headed North and the lettering becomes even more of a challenge when upside down or on its side than it is already.

Lots of electronic charts come in raster scan technoloy, but they suffer from the same heading up problem as the paper charts: lettering is scanned as well and can be upside down. Nobeltec provides vector technology charts, and raster as well; is anyone using them and hating it? Loving it? Are there others I should consider?

I am thinking of computerized nav simply because I want to be able to plan my next near disaster ahead of time. Planning with a boat-based chart plotter seems a waste of boat time to me. Comments?

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

Ken,
Regarding electrnic chart navigation, you can get plenty of information from the manufacturer of your choice....albeit, a bit slanted toward their product.
while electronic navigation has made significant advances, you are still much better off using paper charts. Paper charts enable you to see the big picture instantly, without having to fiddle with the controls of an electronic screen that is way too small.Having navigational information in the cockpit as opposed to inside the cabin seems to me to be a big plus.
I teach Advanced Piloting for a branch of the U.S.power squadron,
and while we have begun to teach the basics of electronic navigation, paper charts constitute 95% of the course. Also you still need to be very proficient at chartwork to obtain a captains license.
There is a system of navigation that has been around for a while, that while I have never used it, gets very good reviews from practical sailor. I believe it is called yeomen...about $700..that
combines paper charts with input from your gps. I believe this system can be used in the cockpit.
I would suggest that if you are planning a cruise.... do all the
chartwork at home or at your slip or mooring before you leave.
I do this and then copy all this information including things to be aware of on the way on lined paper, insert the paper in a clear plastic jacket, then attach the jacket to a plastic clipboard and keep it near the helm....sometimes tucked under a cockpit cushion.
Now all my necessary information stays dry is easily accessable, and there is no worry that my charts are going to fly all over the place as they are kept open and firmly attached to the chart table for reference. Perhaps the most important advantage of all.......I don't fight with the wife.

good luck,
Charlie cd 36 N.Y.




jcp1347j@aol.com

[Ken Coit]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts, I agree with them all. However, even with the best of planning and a fair amount of local knowledge, and even paper charts, things can go awry.

To make a long story somewhat shorter, we were encouraged to take the back route from the Morehead City bridge over the ICW to our slip near MP 200. Encouragement came in the form of two tugs that were dealing with two barges carrying a massive load of tower-like materials. One tug was pulling the barges while the other one stood by to lend a hand in tight spots, like getting through the bridge and heading up the shipping channel rather than the back channel. At one point the second tug blocked the channel under the bridge to allow the other tug to regroup without the burden of other traffic. The Coasties even got involved in trying to sort out the mess.

They were not having a lot of fun, so once we were able to pass under the bridge, we chose to go the other way and had to rely on our bare eyes in bright sunlight to read the miniscule chart notations in an area where the red and green daymarkers and buoys regularly change sides of the channel as you pass from one system to another in the space of a mile or so.

With only paper charts in a unfamilar channel, we were thrown out of kilter. What we needed was a magnifying glass. I have since downloaded and zoomed in on the portion of chart 11545 and I dearly wish I could have done that while on the water. It turns out that some of those markers are well out of the channel and that there are a zig and a zag I should have made to connect one leg with another. Instead, we cut both corners and suffered not; it was good it was high tide.

So, it would seem that a magnifying glass is the first order of business as it is quick and easy to operate; however, a zoomable chart that one can read directly, without a magnifying glass seems much preferable. One can zoom to much better readability than a magnifying glass will provide, even with raster charts.

I have decided that I can live with the much less expensive raster charts after playing with 11545 from the Fugawi site, so I expect we will invest in a non-hardened laptop, the Fugawi software and SoftChart package from Captn. Jack's. All this and a Magellan GPS 3000 XL ought to keep us in deep water instead of hot. The PC will be kept in the cabin, not exposed to the elements any more than necessary. We'll have to see how far we can stretch the interface between the GPS and the laptop. Paper, either printed from the soft charts or our current set, will be the normal order of nav in the cockpit. We carry both 11545 and the Maptech Region 6 Chartkit.

If anyone thinks this is a bad idea, please speak up.

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

After finding that trying to read charts in a hurry while underway can be detrimental to good relations with the First Mate and, further, detrimental to the safety of the vessel and crew, I am considering some sort of an upgrade, not to replace paper charts, but to make them readable. I think heading up charts are a good idea, but although those paper charts can be turned to accomodate the heading, I am hardly ever headed North and the lettering becomes even more of a challenge when upside down or on its side than it is already.

Lots of electronic charts come in raster scan technoloy, but they suffer from the same heading up problem as the paper charts: lettering is scanned as well and can be upside down. Nobeltec provides vector technology charts, and raster as well; is anyone using them and hating it? Loving it? Are there others I should consider?

I am thinking of computerized nav simply because I want to be able to plan my next near disaster ahead of time. Planning with a boat-based chart plotter seems a waste of boat time to me. Comments?

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

Ken,
Regarding electrnic chart navigation, you can get plenty of information from the manufacturer of your choice....albeit, a bit slanted toward their product.
while electronic navigation has made significant advances, you are still much better off using paper charts. Paper charts enable you to see the big picture instantly, without having to fiddle with the controls of an electronic screen that is way too small.Having navigational information in the cockpit as opposed to inside the cabin seems to me to be a big plus.
I teach Advanced Piloting for a branch of the U.S.power squadron,
and while we have begun to teach the basics of electronic navigation, paper charts constitute 95% of the course. Also you still need to be very proficient at chartwork to obtain a captains license.
There is a system of navigation that has been around for a while, that while I have never used it, gets very good reviews from practical sailor. I believe it is called yeomen...about $700..that
combines paper charts with input from your gps. I believe this system can be used in the cockpit.
I would suggest that if you are planning a cruise.... do all the
chartwork at home or at your slip or mooring before you leave.
I do this and then copy all this information including things to be aware of on the way on lined paper, insert the paper in a clear plastic jacket, then attach the jacket to a plastic clipboard and keep it near the helm....sometimes tucked under a cockpit cushion.
Now all my necessary information stays dry is easily accessable, and there is no worry that my charts are going to fly all over the place as they are kept open and firmly attached to the chart table for reference. Perhaps the most important advantage of all.......I don't fight with the wife.

good luck,
Charlie cd 36 N.Y.

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[Murray Glue]

As a professional positioning and navigation engineer, using computer based technology to navigate oil rigs and other offshore contraptions, I can offer the observation that technology has a long long way to go before the prudent navigator will cease to use the paper chart for his primary navigation. The electronic charts are a useful backup on the bridge of a large ship...on a small yacht they are really just a gadget.
Recently while entering the Saigon River at night I watched as the marine crew dashed for the paper chart after a power failure on the bridge took out the ECDIS display screen. Then, the lamp in the chart table light blew!!!

Murray Glue
murray@offshoretechnical.com
CD30 Dayspring
Nelson
New Zealand





murray@offshoretechnical.com

[Larry DeMers]

Exactly Murray! Good example of *why* we should use paper AND the digital formats together. I feel like a blasted Ludite telling everyone that they should not depend entirely on one source of navigation, but time and again, I see, hear and experience examples of why the Boot and Suspenders approach stands one well when on the water. Sure, you may never need that paper chart.. or you might be willing to trade your entire kingdom for a detailed chart of that next harbor! Depends entirely on luck whether you get tested in this direction or not.

A large worry for us up on Superior is a near-miss from lightning..never mind a direct hit. Over the past 14 years now, we have heard about probably an average of 2 cases per summer where no physical evidence of a strike was evident, yet the electronics were simply dead -including the depth sounder and speed/knot log. (Assumed case of near lightning miss causing an EMP).

Another worry is the fickleness of the GPS w/o S.A. in time of war. I doubt that the DOD will crank the SA errors up now that WAAS corrections exist and work and are being used for three-dimensional aircraft landing navigation, but who knows? It should at least be a consideration I would think.
But in closing, I have also seen the incredibly brite displays on lap tops, the fairly detailed graphics that The Captain produces, and have sort of thought it would be fun plotting a trip on the laptop. But then I get real, and figure that there are a number of other projects begging for funds, and so resist this sirens-song for now.
Maybe for Christmas?......

Cheers,


Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD 30 Lake Superior ~~I sit here, wobbling back and forth in my chair, swearing that the room is moving on me..just got off the boat, and have a fine set of sea legs to lose...;^)~~~

As a professional positioning and navigation engineer, using computer based technology to navigate oil rigs and other offshore contraptions, I can offer the observation that technology has a long long way to go before the prudent navigator will cease to use the paper chart for his primary navigation. The electronic charts are a useful backup on the bridge of a large ship...on a small yacht they are really just a gadget.
Recently while entering the Saigon River at night I watched as the marine crew dashed for the paper chart after a power failure on the bridge took out the ECDIS display screen. Then, the lamp in the chart table light blew!!!

Murray Glue
murray@offshoretechnical.com
CD30 Dayspring
Nelson
New Zealand

demers@sgi.com

[PatO]

This is an excellent idea Ken. I can recommend Maptech's Offshore Navigator software along with the disk for your area. These are current NOAA charts with which we all are familiar and the software provides either N or track up. Making waypoints is as simple as point and click and uploading to my garmin etrex legend takes seconds.
I keep my laptop on the stove and the gps on the stbd bulkhead above the compass. If it gets too bright or inclement I slide the companionway hatch closed. In this configuration I can sit at the helm (tiller) and consult all of my nav tools. My paper charts, pencil, dividers, parallel rule etc... including lighted magnifying glass I keep on the top step of the companionway or in the sink for easy reach from the cockpit.
I love this setup and am sure you too will appreciate the advantages of adding this powerful piece of navigation hardware. When it really shines is when you have to duck-in to an unfamiliar harbor. It displays info about all of the marine facilities along with phone numbers. One complaint is that the bridge info is limited to what's on the charts. Seems it would be easy enough to include the bridge name, channel, and operating hours - maybe even operator's names.
What could be wrong with augmenting navigation skills by learning how to use a new tool? If you decide to go this route I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Regards,

Pat
Esprit CD 28



fornaft@NShotmail.com

[Jim Alexander]

After finding that trying to read charts in a hurry while underway can be detrimental to good relations with the First Mate and, further, detrimental to the safety of the vessel and crew, I am considering some sort of an upgrade, not to replace paper charts, but to make them readable. I think heading up charts are a good idea, but although those paper charts can be turned to accomodate the heading, I am hardly ever headed North and the lettering becomes even more of a challenge when upside down or on its side than it is already.

Lots of electronic charts come in raster scan technoloy, but they suffer from the same heading up problem as the paper charts: lettering is scanned as well and can be upside down. Nobeltec provides vector technology charts, and raster as well; is anyone using them and hating it? Loving it? Are there others I should consider?

I am thinking of computerized nav simply because I want to be able to plan my next near disaster ahead of time. Planning with a boat-based chart plotter seems a waste of boat time to me. Comments?

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

Last November we ran aground in the Ft. George River in northern Florida because we couldn't see a 3 foot sand bar encrouchment coming into the green side of the channel. After that encounter we purchased the Garman 176C along with the chart card for the Florida east coast and the keys. The unit is water/weather proof and is attached in its holder at the helm. It covers the coast both inland(about 40 miles) and out to sea as far as the near Bahamas. After we wintered in S. Florida and the Keys we came back up the coast and bought the chart cards for everything up to and including the Chesapeake. Now we "don't leave anchor with out it"! It leaves you a "bread crumb" line so you can retrace your course and also gives you many other good things like tide for your location or any location.
Our paper charts are now the backup and still go to the cockpit for reference, backup, and the larger picture.
Take a look at your favorite boat store.
Jim and Donna
Ragtime/CD33



jimalex@earthlink.net

[Ken Coit]

Jim and Donna,

Thanks for your insights. I am thinking along those lines as well. I believe that if the charts are so out of date as they say, doing our own survey in areas critical to us is not a bad idea. We certainly cut some corners in our most recent experience that the charts indicate to be a poor idea. There are shoals shown on the chart between the Morehead channel and Cape Lookout bight that seem to have been washed away as well. We found no less than 35 ft of water out there.

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

After finding that trying to read charts in a hurry while underway can be detrimental to good relations with the First Mate and, further, detrimental to the safety of the vessel and crew, I am considering some sort of an upgrade, not to replace paper charts, but to make them readable. I think heading up charts are a good idea, but although those paper charts can be turned to accomodate the heading, I am hardly ever headed North and the lettering becomes even more of a challenge when upside down or on its side than it is already.

Lots of electronic charts come in raster scan technoloy, but they suffer from the same heading up problem as the paper charts: lettering is scanned as well and can be upside down. Nobeltec provides vector technology charts, and raster as well; is anyone using them and hating it? Loving it? Are there others I should consider?

I am thinking of computerized nav simply because I want to be able to plan my next near disaster ahead of time. Planning with a boat-based chart plotter seems a waste of boat time to me. Comments?

Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit, ND7N
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

Last November we ran aground in the Ft. George River in northern Florida because we couldn't see a 3 foot sand bar encrouchment coming into the green side of the channel. After that encounter we purchased the Garman 176C along with the chart card for the Florida east coast and the keys. The unit is water/weather proof and is attached in its holder at the helm. It covers the coast both inland(about 40 miles) and out to sea as far as the near Bahamas. After we wintered in S. Florida and the Keys we came back up the coast and bought the chart cards for everything up to and including the Chesapeake. Now we "don't leave anchor with out it"! It leaves you a "bread crumb" line so you can retrace your course and also gives you many other good things like tide for your location or any location.
Our paper charts are now the backup and still go to the cockpit for reference, backup, and the larger picture.
Take a look at your favorite boat store.
Jim and Donna
Ragtime/CD33

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com