sailing to windward CD 33

[Leonard Lookner]

I've got a CD 33 with a new fully baten main and 150 genoa and can not seem to go to weather less than 50 degrees without losing speed, I was told the main was tired, replaced it to no avail. It can't be a characteristic of the boat can it? Help!



litlook@midcoast.com

[Patrick Turner]

Some of that may depend on wind/boat speed. Generally, you can point higher when the wind and boat speed are up. With a good breeze you should be closer to around 35 I would think. If the wind is light you might have to crack off to maintain speed. Also might need to look at the shape of your Genoa since it will be the first sail to start flogging or losing performance when going to weather, thereby influencing your ability to point.

Pat



patrick.t@attbi.com

[John S]

Sailnet article says "most boats can sail at about 45 degrees on either side of the wind". "In this close-hauled position, the sails need to be sheeted in to their maximum trim". i am sure there are some experts out there who can give you more info.

I've got a CD 33 with a new fully baten main and 150 genoa and can not seem to go to weather less than 50 degrees without losing speed, I was told the main was tired, replaced it to no avail. It can't be a characteristic of the boat can it? Help!

sidney777@hotmail.com

[Steve Marcotte]

Pat-
I'm still something of a newbie- but I'm pretty certain if the wind is in the 25 & more zone- the inverse of your comment becomes the "rule"- in fact with strong wind you cannot point as high. I have at least one foolish (i.e. scary) personal experience that demonstrated this... I could be way off- but am interested to hear other's views...

Steve
CD25 Man O'War



satirelounge@yahoo.com

[Chris Scheck]

Is your CD33 a cutter? Are you talking about sailing with both jibs up? The boat will point higher when both jibs are up. The yankee (larger jib) is cut high at the foot ... it's not like a big, full genoa so, by itself, it doesn't give you a lot of lift. Once you put up both jibs you get a slot effect between the two jibs and you can point higher. But I would agree that the boat does not point as high as more contemporary designs. Other sailors have remarked about that when they take the wheel of our boat. I also agree that the boat will point higher as wind speed increases. In very high winds of course, you have to fall off to prevent excessive heel, but that's not the same as saying the boat points up less as wind speed increases.



cscheck@aol.com

[Neil Gordon]

>>... I'm pretty certain if the wind is in the 25 & more zone- the inverse of your comment becomes the "rule"- in fact with strong wind you cannot point as high.<<

Consider this...

Apparent wind is a combination of true wind and the wind created as the boat moves. So on every point of sail other than a dead run, as boat speed increases, the apparent wind moves forward. In very light wind, it doesn't take much boat speed to move the apparent wind far enough forward so that you can't go any further.

Increase the true wind and you can go faster before you're caught beyond close hauled. To a point...

Increase the wind further and other factors come into play. The boat develops excessive heel, which reduces its efficiency. Weather helm increases and the rudder becomes a drag as you try to compensate. There's also the effect of seas... which when sailing close hauled will considerably slow the boat in heavy weather... go slower and you can't point as high.

As for losing speed in general... we know that reaching is fastest... and very often a close reach will make better progress toward a mark than sailing close hauled.

Something like that.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



neil@nrgordon.com

[Patrick Turner]

Yes, you are right. My previous statement only holds up to a point and then indeed it is more difficult to point up high into the wind. Neil has explained it very well I think.

Pat



patric.t@attbi.com

[john]

I've got a CD 33 with a new fully baten main and 150 genoa and can not seem to go to weather less than 50 degrees without losing speed, I was told the main was tired, replaced it to no avail. It can't be a characteristic of the boat can it? Help!

You may have the slot too tight. Bring the main to windward a little with the traveler & if that doesn't do it, crack the jib off a little to open the slot. What sail combination were you using??
John CD31 #18 Bonnie Blue



redzeplin@yahoo.com

[brian]

how's your sheeting angle? Where is your block located? Without a good sheet lead/angle on those bigger genoas they can really "twist" and loose their shape.

Also take your mainsheet traveler to the windward side.



pedbed@attbi.com

[Roger]

I've got a CD 33 with a new fully baten main and 150 genoa and can not seem to go to weather less than 50 degrees without losing speed, I was told the main was tired, replaced it to no avail. It can't be a characteristic of the boat can it? Help!

You may have the slot too tight. Bring the main to windward a little with the traveler & if that doesn't do it, crack the jib off a little to open the slot. What sail combination were you using??
John CD31 #18 Bonnie Blue

Assuming you have good halyard tension on the jib and main, some general suggestions for moderate wind conditions are:

1. bring the traveler to the center of the boat and trim main sheet until your top batten is aligned with the boom when looking up. The tell tails on the mainsail leach should be flying, the top may be partially stalled.

2. adjust your 150% jib cars so the top/bottom jib tell tails break evenly from top to bottom when luffing (heading into the wind). If you haven't flow the 150% jib before, your jib cars need to be moved aft. To maximize pointing on this sail, it's better to bring the cars back so you can trim the foot of the sail in close (against the shrouds if you have inboard tracks).

3. get the boat moving (up to speed) before you try to point up into the wind. Practice adjusting your sails and driving for the wind/sea conditions and you should be able to improve your up wind pointing somewhat.

In my opinion, you should be able to do much better than 45 deg (perhaps up to 35 deg) -- if it's still a problem, get your sail maker to come for a ride and evaluate the situation. You may need to re-tune the standing rigging, or have the sails recut. They will be able help you get the most out of the new sails, and it's not costing any more for this professional advise. Well, you did pay for the sails...

Roger
S/V Felcity
CD Intrepid 9M
Portsmouth, RI

[Boyd]

Its hard to tell from your discription... not enough information. I would want to know if you were experiencing weather or lee helm at the time and the amount of boat heel. These together will help diagnose the problem. You should sail very close to 45 degrees aparent wind.

The amount of weather helm or lee helm will tell if you are out of balance between the head and main sails. You should be experiencing some weather helm under close hauled conditions. I gauge from the wheel position and the feel of the boat.

I suspect a sail balance problem... either sheet trim or the wrong size sail for the conditions. The 150 genoa may have been too much sail. How were you judging the angle to weather?
Can you give us more info?

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla

I've got a CD 33 with a new fully baten main and 150 genoa and can not seem to go to weather less than 50 degrees without losing speed, I was told the main was tired, replaced it to no avail. It can't be a characteristic of the boat can it? Help!

Boyd@wbta.cc

[Stan W.]

If you are new to full battens, that could be part of the situation. With full battens, you no longer can trim the main by watching for when it starts to luff. You must live by the tell-tales on the leach. Trim so these all are streaming back most of the time.

Lots of good info in Steve Alarcon's link to the North Sails Short Course five threads below.



skicape@aol.com

[Kramer]

GENTLEMAN DON'T SAIL TO WINDWARD!



lookner@aol.com