Caladesi Island State park has begun installing electrical service on some of the slips in the marina there. This makes me very interested in 110v cooling my CD27 "Aquanell". If any of you have installed AC in a CD27, I would like whatever recommendations you are willing to share.
I have read the archives here and also some of the stuff from the manufacturers on the internet. There was mention of the possibility of using an existing thruhull for the Seawater inlet. It seems to me that I could install a Tee just above the stopcock of the galley sink. If that is workable, since the AC cooling water outlet is normally above the waterline, the installation could be made in the water.
Another alternative is the Cruiseair carry-on. Does anyone use one and how do you like it?
Thanks for your help.
Bob Marsh
S/V Aquanell CD27#51
Dunedin FL
bobcmarsh@earthlink.net
Airconditioning
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
John R.
Re: Air conditioning
Bob,
The A/C topic is a complex one because there are so many variables involved. I used to be a dealer for Mermaid and have been faced with my share of installation dilemmas.
On our CD30 as an example I now use two different A/C units. The main A/C is a Mermaid unit located under the V-berth with a dedicated cooling water intake seacock and also a dedicated cooling water outlet. I never advised any customers to use a shared seacock whether it be a drain or an intake. Flow is very important on an A/C unit. Resistance or obstruction in cooling flow will or can cause the cooling breaker to trip. At least that is the case on Mermaids. I'm not aware of any A/C units that recommend sharing a drain or intake. My advice is to install appropriate seacock arrangements if you plan to use a built in unit.
Cruisair hatch units are very good except the fabric hood does not make a tight seal against the cabin top, it just lays there. The hood seems to be the weak link in the Cruisair design. The unit is quite heavy and awkward to handle. Zeida in Miami owns one and uses it on her CD33. She has had good service from the unit except she isn't very satisfied with that hood design. She complains of a condensation drip problem during high humidity days. Perhaps if she sees your post she will add some commentary on the unit.
I added a hatch A/C unit this summer to my 30 just because I am doing a lot of work on the interior and want the boat as cool as possible inside. It is only being used while she is at the dock during this period. I currenntly have the Mermaid removed while I do some work and the hatch unit (whom I've named Beast)is a 6500 BTU unit and it is keeping the interior comfortable on its own. This unit is installed into the main hatch by use of a flange adapter that I fabricated from Starboard and closed cell foam. I point that out because it makes an excellent seal between the A/C unit and the hatch opening. It eliminates things like a fabric hood or other flimsy cover design. I used 3/4" Starboard to fabricate the flange adapter. I used 1/4" thick closed cell foam sheet to make the seal gasket. The foam was cut to fit both sides of the flange adapter to a perfect fit of the mating surface outlines of the A/C unit base and the hatch frame opening. The appropriate foam sheet gasket was then glued to either side of that flange adapter using 3M industrial adhesive (yes, you can glue to Starboard with a quality spray contact adhesive in an application like this). The adapter was placed upon the hatch frame and the A/C unit set in place. That sealed the unit to the hatch opening simply by the weight of the A/C unit compressing and sandwiching the flange adapter between the unit and the hatch frame. The gasketing surfaces of the adapter were dusted with talc so it would not tend to stick to the hatch frame or A/C unit bottom when the A/C unit is later removed to prevent damage to the foam.
I rerouted the AC electrical in the A/C unit itself so I could bypass using the ships AC power. Most hatch units require the use of an extension cord to plug into AC power in the cabin, risky...plus the dangling cord has to be dealt with. The power connection for the A/C unit on my hatch unit now exits the exterior case of the unit so it can be plugged into dockside shore power independently of the boats shore system. I did this so the A/C unit could run 24 hours a day and I would not need to be concerned about the status of the boats electrical system when not aboard.
This type of hatch A/C setup has a couple advantages here in Florida. It is very rain tight, it is very insect tight, and it is dirt and draft tight. It also is easily and quickly removed in case of a tropical storm threat. Just lift it off and close the hatch. The design of the bottom of the Cruisair, inparticular the return air section, can make it difficult but not impossible to make such an installation eliminating the draped fabric hood. In my opinion the Cruisair would be a very good unit if that fabric hood were eliminated. I purchased my hatch unit used at a marine consignment shop, tore it all apart and rebuilt and refinished it. I had a choice of a used Cruisair or the unit I purchased (can't recall the brand name of it at the moment)and I chose the unit I have over the Cruisair simply because I didn't like the fabric hood arrangement on the Cruisair. If you are going to go the route of the hatch A/C rather than the built in arrangement then my suggestion to you is to look for a compact hatch unit (similar to that used in RV's) and go with the adapter flange arrangement. If you prefer the Cruisair (expensive, virtual cost of a small built in unit)then my advice is design a weather proof sealing method for the unit to the hatch.
The best units are built ins, no question about that. Although, there is one big caveat. That being the cooling water flow. It is a flood risk when the unit is running and you are not on board because of it's raw water cooling, just like water cooled refrigeration units, they share the same risks. I'm speaking primarily about the hose connections and the condenser cooling water connection nipples. The nipples do fail! I have seen it happen a few times on different boats including my own. The nipples are simply short lengths of cupro nickel tubing brazed to the larger condenser tubing. That is the problem. The brazes fail over time, develop pin holes, then cracks, then the nipples separate from the condenser. There goes your boat if the A/C is running, the cooling water then just pumps into the boat. If you are not onboard and able to catch the problem the boat would probably sink, or I should say would sink. I know of one that did.
On my own boat I discovered a weak nipple braze by pressing on it to double check it's integrity when I noticed a small amount of rust (pin head size)appearing in a couple different spots along the edge of the braze at the condenser tube joint. When I pressed it cracked, when I pressed harder it split, pressed more and it broke off. I was lucky. That was on the cooling water inlet nipple, the outlet nipple was even worse but I didn't discover that until I removed the unit entirely and rebuilt it. The outlet nipple was worse because it is located at the bottom of the condeser tube and all condensation that would form on the condeser coil would run down and collect at the bottom worsening an already vulnerable area, the braze.
With all that said, all A/C unit condenser coils are basically made the same way and none that I am aware of have taken any special measures to secure the cooling hoses to the condensor coil in any special manner to prevent the described issue I've outlined. If you elect to install a water cooled built in A/C unit make certain you do not leave it running while you are not onboard unless you are absolutely certain about the integrity of the hose connections and condenser nipples. It is best to redesign those condenser connections and utilize cast bronze nipples and use high silver content brazes that are substantial. Also I recommend you incorporate a zinc before the strainer and ground it to the condenser or chassis.
I hope this information and warning have been of help to you. If you would like a pic or two of a flange that you can make to fit an A/C hatch unit securely let me know. I can also send you a pic of teh hatch unit that I am using and also the Mermaid which bears the modifications made to the condenser water connections.
Please remember this is not a problem just associated with a Mermaid. The Mermaid units are excellent A/C units and I highly recommend them. The condenser nipple issue is pertintent to all the current recreational boat A/C units and some water cooled refrigeration units.
The A/C topic is a complex one because there are so many variables involved. I used to be a dealer for Mermaid and have been faced with my share of installation dilemmas.
On our CD30 as an example I now use two different A/C units. The main A/C is a Mermaid unit located under the V-berth with a dedicated cooling water intake seacock and also a dedicated cooling water outlet. I never advised any customers to use a shared seacock whether it be a drain or an intake. Flow is very important on an A/C unit. Resistance or obstruction in cooling flow will or can cause the cooling breaker to trip. At least that is the case on Mermaids. I'm not aware of any A/C units that recommend sharing a drain or intake. My advice is to install appropriate seacock arrangements if you plan to use a built in unit.
Cruisair hatch units are very good except the fabric hood does not make a tight seal against the cabin top, it just lays there. The hood seems to be the weak link in the Cruisair design. The unit is quite heavy and awkward to handle. Zeida in Miami owns one and uses it on her CD33. She has had good service from the unit except she isn't very satisfied with that hood design. She complains of a condensation drip problem during high humidity days. Perhaps if she sees your post she will add some commentary on the unit.
I added a hatch A/C unit this summer to my 30 just because I am doing a lot of work on the interior and want the boat as cool as possible inside. It is only being used while she is at the dock during this period. I currenntly have the Mermaid removed while I do some work and the hatch unit (whom I've named Beast)is a 6500 BTU unit and it is keeping the interior comfortable on its own. This unit is installed into the main hatch by use of a flange adapter that I fabricated from Starboard and closed cell foam. I point that out because it makes an excellent seal between the A/C unit and the hatch opening. It eliminates things like a fabric hood or other flimsy cover design. I used 3/4" Starboard to fabricate the flange adapter. I used 1/4" thick closed cell foam sheet to make the seal gasket. The foam was cut to fit both sides of the flange adapter to a perfect fit of the mating surface outlines of the A/C unit base and the hatch frame opening. The appropriate foam sheet gasket was then glued to either side of that flange adapter using 3M industrial adhesive (yes, you can glue to Starboard with a quality spray contact adhesive in an application like this). The adapter was placed upon the hatch frame and the A/C unit set in place. That sealed the unit to the hatch opening simply by the weight of the A/C unit compressing and sandwiching the flange adapter between the unit and the hatch frame. The gasketing surfaces of the adapter were dusted with talc so it would not tend to stick to the hatch frame or A/C unit bottom when the A/C unit is later removed to prevent damage to the foam.
I rerouted the AC electrical in the A/C unit itself so I could bypass using the ships AC power. Most hatch units require the use of an extension cord to plug into AC power in the cabin, risky...plus the dangling cord has to be dealt with. The power connection for the A/C unit on my hatch unit now exits the exterior case of the unit so it can be plugged into dockside shore power independently of the boats shore system. I did this so the A/C unit could run 24 hours a day and I would not need to be concerned about the status of the boats electrical system when not aboard.
This type of hatch A/C setup has a couple advantages here in Florida. It is very rain tight, it is very insect tight, and it is dirt and draft tight. It also is easily and quickly removed in case of a tropical storm threat. Just lift it off and close the hatch. The design of the bottom of the Cruisair, inparticular the return air section, can make it difficult but not impossible to make such an installation eliminating the draped fabric hood. In my opinion the Cruisair would be a very good unit if that fabric hood were eliminated. I purchased my hatch unit used at a marine consignment shop, tore it all apart and rebuilt and refinished it. I had a choice of a used Cruisair or the unit I purchased (can't recall the brand name of it at the moment)and I chose the unit I have over the Cruisair simply because I didn't like the fabric hood arrangement on the Cruisair. If you are going to go the route of the hatch A/C rather than the built in arrangement then my suggestion to you is to look for a compact hatch unit (similar to that used in RV's) and go with the adapter flange arrangement. If you prefer the Cruisair (expensive, virtual cost of a small built in unit)then my advice is design a weather proof sealing method for the unit to the hatch.
The best units are built ins, no question about that. Although, there is one big caveat. That being the cooling water flow. It is a flood risk when the unit is running and you are not on board because of it's raw water cooling, just like water cooled refrigeration units, they share the same risks. I'm speaking primarily about the hose connections and the condenser cooling water connection nipples. The nipples do fail! I have seen it happen a few times on different boats including my own. The nipples are simply short lengths of cupro nickel tubing brazed to the larger condenser tubing. That is the problem. The brazes fail over time, develop pin holes, then cracks, then the nipples separate from the condenser. There goes your boat if the A/C is running, the cooling water then just pumps into the boat. If you are not onboard and able to catch the problem the boat would probably sink, or I should say would sink. I know of one that did.
On my own boat I discovered a weak nipple braze by pressing on it to double check it's integrity when I noticed a small amount of rust (pin head size)appearing in a couple different spots along the edge of the braze at the condenser tube joint. When I pressed it cracked, when I pressed harder it split, pressed more and it broke off. I was lucky. That was on the cooling water inlet nipple, the outlet nipple was even worse but I didn't discover that until I removed the unit entirely and rebuilt it. The outlet nipple was worse because it is located at the bottom of the condeser tube and all condensation that would form on the condeser coil would run down and collect at the bottom worsening an already vulnerable area, the braze.
With all that said, all A/C unit condenser coils are basically made the same way and none that I am aware of have taken any special measures to secure the cooling hoses to the condensor coil in any special manner to prevent the described issue I've outlined. If you elect to install a water cooled built in A/C unit make certain you do not leave it running while you are not onboard unless you are absolutely certain about the integrity of the hose connections and condenser nipples. It is best to redesign those condenser connections and utilize cast bronze nipples and use high silver content brazes that are substantial. Also I recommend you incorporate a zinc before the strainer and ground it to the condenser or chassis.
I hope this information and warning have been of help to you. If you would like a pic or two of a flange that you can make to fit an A/C hatch unit securely let me know. I can also send you a pic of teh hatch unit that I am using and also the Mermaid which bears the modifications made to the condenser water connections.
Please remember this is not a problem just associated with a Mermaid. The Mermaid units are excellent A/C units and I highly recommend them. The condenser nipple issue is pertintent to all the current recreational boat A/C units and some water cooled refrigeration units.
Bob Marsh wrote:
Caladesi Island State park has begun installing electrical service on some of the slips in the marina there. This makes me very interested in 110v cooling my CD27 "Aquanell". If any of you have installed AC in a CD27, I would like whatever recommendations you are willing to share.
I have read the archives here and also some of the stuff from the manufacturers on the internet. There was mention of the possibility of using an existing thruhull for the Seawater inlet. It seems to me that I could install a Tee just above the stopcock of the galley sink. If that is workable, since the AC cooling water outlet is normally above the waterline, the installation could be made in the water.
Another alternative is the Cruiseair carry-on. Does anyone use one and how do you like it?
Thanks for your help.
Bob Marsh
S/V Aquanell CD27#51
Dunedin FL
-
Richard Hill
Re: Airconditioning
I have a couple of friends with the Cruisairs and both of them complain about the constant dripping of condensation onto the cabin sole.Bob Marsh wrote:
Caladesi Island State park has begun installing electrical service on some of the slips in the marina there. This makes me very interested in 110v cooling my CD27 "Aquanell". If any of you have installed AC in a CD27, I would like whatever recommendations you are willing to share.
I have read the archives here and also some of the stuff from the manufacturers on the internet. There was mention of the possibility of using an existing thruhull for the Seawater inlet. It seems to me that I could install a Tee just above the stopcock of the galley sink. If that is workable, since the AC cooling water outlet is normally above the waterline, the installation could be made in the water.
Another alternative is the Cruiseair carry-on. Does anyone use one and how do you like it?
Thanks for your help.
Bob Marsh
S/V Aquanell CD27#51
Dunedin FL
captrahill@comcast.net
-
Chris Cram
Re: Airconditioning
This year I bought a Cruisair Carry on air conditioner. It cools my CD 30 quite well and has changed our boat use patterns considerably. Years past we would day sail then escape the boat because the thought of sleeping in all that humidity was not appealing. Now we are there every weekend and yes we still sail.
We have not experienced the dripping problem mentioned, our condensation run off seems to find its way down the side deck. There is no perfect place on the 30 to put the unit. The main cabin hatch opens aft (anyone know why that is?) so the Cruisair conflicts with the spray hood and the forward hatch puts the air conditioner right over your head and it is still hard to level up.
Leveling it is important -- when not level the unit rattles when running making twice the noise.
And the only other draw back is that it is heavy!!! I am still glad I bought the thing but think that the next boat will have a built in unit.
Some reader to this board, a year or so ago, posted a photo that show the unit mounted in a CD30 main hatch ---level, or so I thought---are you out there? If so can you post that photo again? I can't seem to find it in the archives.
cccobx@prodigy.net
We have not experienced the dripping problem mentioned, our condensation run off seems to find its way down the side deck. There is no perfect place on the 30 to put the unit. The main cabin hatch opens aft (anyone know why that is?) so the Cruisair conflicts with the spray hood and the forward hatch puts the air conditioner right over your head and it is still hard to level up.
Leveling it is important -- when not level the unit rattles when running making twice the noise.
And the only other draw back is that it is heavy!!! I am still glad I bought the thing but think that the next boat will have a built in unit.
Some reader to this board, a year or so ago, posted a photo that show the unit mounted in a CD30 main hatch ---level, or so I thought---are you out there? If so can you post that photo again? I can't seem to find it in the archives.
cccobx@prodigy.net
-
shanna paxton
Re: Airconditioning
I just intalled a Mermaid 9000 BTU unit on my CD30MKII. It has taken awhile to get all of the kinks out, but I now have it running the way I want to. It was a tight fit. We ended up modifing the V-Berth and ducting on vent in the V birth and two vents back to the salon. I had a seperate through hull installed so that there would be good water flow. Consider buying the seperate condensing unit so that you on't have to woory about the dripping pan overflowing or clogging up. Also return air ventilation is extremely important. I had to install two fans in the salon to keep the evaporator plate from freezing up.Bob Marsh wrote:
Caladesi Island State park has begun installing electrical service on some of the slips in the marina there. This makes me very interested in 110v cooling my CD27 "Aquanell". If any of you have installed AC in a CD27, I would like whatever recommendations you are willing to share.
I have read the archives here and also some of the stuff from the manufacturers on the internet. There was mention of the possibility of using an existing thruhull for the Seawater inlet. It seems to me that I could install a Tee just above the stopcock of the galley sink. If that is workable, since the AC cooling water outlet is normally above the waterline, the installation could be made in the water.
Another alternative is the Cruiseair carry-on. Does anyone use one and how do you like it?
Thanks for your help.
Bob Marsh
S/V Aquanell CD27#51
Dunedin FL
Good luck!
wanderlust@clis.com