My CD Manual for the 22D specifies that 1/4" waxed flax packing be used and not to use synthetic or teflon packing. In the manual that I have it seems that this recommendation applies to "all CDY stuffing boxes" (quote from Manual). I have seen a number of recent posts where teflon packing has been used and apparently with success. Is waxed flax packing required for some CDs or all of them? Should I re-pack with the waxed flax packing or teflon or? Advantages and disadvantages of each? What is the reason(s)why CD recommended the waxed flax packing and cautioned against the use of the synthetics? Does this recommendation no longer apply? Thanks.
atea@att.net
Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Andy Denmark
Re: Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
Hi Jim,
While it is of good general use and serves up "safe" guidelines for the care and maintenance of your boat, the Cape Dory manual is full of anachronisms. Sailing, boats, and related technology have come a long way since that manual was printed. There is no harm to using Teflon packing, as witnessed by many on this board who do so. A combination of flax and Teflon works well, too. Other things that are seriously outdated in the manual regard "masts in column," acetone that attacks cured gel coat (not), and a myriad of other things that technology surpassed or disproved decades ago. On the other side of the coin, you will make solid conservative choices if you follow the manual. I enjoy taking advantage of advancements in sailboat-related technology while others do not. There are entrenched believers on all sides. It's a tough boat and difficult to hurt with improved technology.
My $.02 worth.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
While it is of good general use and serves up "safe" guidelines for the care and maintenance of your boat, the Cape Dory manual is full of anachronisms. Sailing, boats, and related technology have come a long way since that manual was printed. There is no harm to using Teflon packing, as witnessed by many on this board who do so. A combination of flax and Teflon works well, too. Other things that are seriously outdated in the manual regard "masts in column," acetone that attacks cured gel coat (not), and a myriad of other things that technology surpassed or disproved decades ago. On the other side of the coin, you will make solid conservative choices if you follow the manual. I enjoy taking advantage of advancements in sailboat-related technology while others do not. There are entrenched believers on all sides. It's a tough boat and difficult to hurt with improved technology.
My $.02 worth.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
-
Ken Coit
Oh, Dear! You Use Modern Materials?
Jim,
Andy is just kidding. Don't believe it!
Actually, he isn't, but I am worried about his not keeping the mast in column. Lots of us use Teflon in our stuffing boxes; the original formulations may not have been what they are today. Stainless shafts are pretty controversial too unless you figure out how to keep them bathed in oxygen; starve them of oxygen and you have problems.
Most of us really like bronze, but don't talk about polishing it. Green patina is much nicer.
1/4" flax is the right one for all Cape Dorys, but some of us substitute the dripless stuff for a round or two.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
Andy is just kidding. Don't believe it!
Actually, he isn't, but I am worried about his not keeping the mast in column. Lots of us use Teflon in our stuffing boxes; the original formulations may not have been what they are today. Stainless shafts are pretty controversial too unless you figure out how to keep them bathed in oxygen; starve them of oxygen and you have problems.
Most of us really like bronze, but don't talk about polishing it. Green patina is much nicer.
1/4" flax is the right one for all Cape Dorys, but some of us substitute the dripless stuff for a round or two.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
Andy Denmark wrote: Hi Jim,
While it is of good general use and serves up "safe" guidelines for the care and maintenance of your boat, the Cape Dory manual is full of anachronisms. Sailing, boats, and related technology have come a long way since that manual was printed. There is no harm to using Teflon packing, as witnessed by many on this board who do so. A combination of flax and Teflon works well, too. Other things that are seriously outdated in the manual regard "masts in column," acetone that attacks cured gel coat (not), and a myriad of other things that technology surpassed or disproved decades ago. On the other side of the coin, you will make solid conservative choices if you follow the manual. I enjoy taking advantage of advancements in sailboat-related technology while others do not. There are entrenched believers on all sides. It's a tough boat and difficult to hurt with improved technology.
My $.02 worth.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
-
Tom
Re: Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
Andy is exactly right. While none of us knows why Cape Dory recommended that in the manual, my speculation is that at the time the manual was printed the new teflon packings were just coming on the market and hadn't had much field testing. CD being a traditional minded company, CD took the tack that said the old flax packing has been working for 200 years or whatever, so before we start recommending new-fangled things that have just come on the market we want to be sure they are time proven. You can't go wrong recommending something that's been working for centuries, so we're probably better being conservative and recommending proven technology than taking a chance on some new thing that might sink a boat. Remember Deks Olje that was going to revolutionize the varnish industry?
Two tings have happened since the manual was printed about 15 years ago. First, the teflon packings have been improved. Second, the teflon packings have been used now for 15 or almost 20 years with great success. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it -- have you? I've had mine in the stuffing box since 1991. At that time only a few places carried it and it was very expensive. I finally split a pack with a friend to get the cost down. It has never dripped and I've never had to adjust it in over 10 years. Everyone that I know has gone to it or a PSS system.
At the time the CD manual was printed I believe that no new boats came with teflon packings. A traditional company such as CD wouldn't likely be the first to endorse some new system. Without taking a survey I believe I'm correct in saying that most new boats come with it today. The guys at the boatyard say it's great stuff and they've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. And one nice thing about it (unlike PSS) is that it's cheap to try and if you don't like it or have a problem with it it's really simple to go back to the old stuff. At the next haulout you just pull it out of there and put the old stuff back in, because you're still using the original stuffing box. With the PSS system you're in over $ 100 and to go back you have to pull the prop shaft and re-install the old stuffing box.
BTW the Cape Dory manual is wrong about leaving the transmission in forward gear when you're sailing with the Universal engine off also.
This BB has a large readership. Has anyone ever had a problem with the teflon packing? Or heard of somebody having a problem with it? I wonder if it says the same thing in the new Robinhood manual today? Do the new Robinhood boats still use strictly flax packing? You can't go wrong sticking with the tried and true, but I like the teflon stuff and don't have any qualms about it.
ComCambmria@mindspring.com
Two tings have happened since the manual was printed about 15 years ago. First, the teflon packings have been improved. Second, the teflon packings have been used now for 15 or almost 20 years with great success. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it -- have you? I've had mine in the stuffing box since 1991. At that time only a few places carried it and it was very expensive. I finally split a pack with a friend to get the cost down. It has never dripped and I've never had to adjust it in over 10 years. Everyone that I know has gone to it or a PSS system.
At the time the CD manual was printed I believe that no new boats came with teflon packings. A traditional company such as CD wouldn't likely be the first to endorse some new system. Without taking a survey I believe I'm correct in saying that most new boats come with it today. The guys at the boatyard say it's great stuff and they've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. And one nice thing about it (unlike PSS) is that it's cheap to try and if you don't like it or have a problem with it it's really simple to go back to the old stuff. At the next haulout you just pull it out of there and put the old stuff back in, because you're still using the original stuffing box. With the PSS system you're in over $ 100 and to go back you have to pull the prop shaft and re-install the old stuffing box.
BTW the Cape Dory manual is wrong about leaving the transmission in forward gear when you're sailing with the Universal engine off also.
This BB has a large readership. Has anyone ever had a problem with the teflon packing? Or heard of somebody having a problem with it? I wonder if it says the same thing in the new Robinhood manual today? Do the new Robinhood boats still use strictly flax packing? You can't go wrong sticking with the tried and true, but I like the teflon stuff and don't have any qualms about it.
Jim wrote: My CD Manual for the 22D specifies that 1/4" waxed flax packing be used and not to use synthetic or teflon packing. In the manual that I have it seems that this recommendation applies to "all CDY stuffing boxes" (quote from Manual). I have seen a number of recent posts where teflon packing has been used and apparently with success. Is waxed flax packing required for some CDs or all of them? Should I re-pack with the waxed flax packing or teflon or? Advantages and disadvantages of each? What is the reason(s)why CD recommended the waxed flax packing and cautioned against the use of the synthetics? Does this recommendation no longer apply? Thanks.
ComCambmria@mindspring.com
-
Andy Denmark
Re: Oh, Dear! You Use Modern Materials?
Hmmmm,
Well, for the record, I've used Teflon packing since before Rhiannon was commissioned in 1983. Same with the stainless shaft. Replaced the bronze one before she was launched. Would you believe, not a trace of corrossion anywhere! I put her original shaft in a 27 that bent the bronze factory original wrapping up a crab pot line. Laws of physical chemistry must be suspended for Rhiannon somehow. (Remember the old bumper sticker that said, "Honk if you passed P-Chem?) As for mast tuning, I carry about 2-1/2 inches of prebend at the hounds, again since day one - that's why she goes upwind like a witch (that, and no roller furling so I can use real sails) Lee shrouds just wave in the breeze. Imagine that! She goes fast and still looks as traditional as any Cape Dory around --go figure? Must be some klnd of black magic? One day we may try to catch that Chicken Legs guy. Did he buy a mitre cut jib? Jesus, talk about anachronisms!
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Hailing Port: Oriental, NC
Sailing out of Lower Broad Creek
trekker@coastalnet.com
Well, for the record, I've used Teflon packing since before Rhiannon was commissioned in 1983. Same with the stainless shaft. Replaced the bronze one before she was launched. Would you believe, not a trace of corrossion anywhere! I put her original shaft in a 27 that bent the bronze factory original wrapping up a crab pot line. Laws of physical chemistry must be suspended for Rhiannon somehow. (Remember the old bumper sticker that said, "Honk if you passed P-Chem?) As for mast tuning, I carry about 2-1/2 inches of prebend at the hounds, again since day one - that's why she goes upwind like a witch (that, and no roller furling so I can use real sails) Lee shrouds just wave in the breeze. Imagine that! She goes fast and still looks as traditional as any Cape Dory around --go figure? Must be some klnd of black magic? One day we may try to catch that Chicken Legs guy. Did he buy a mitre cut jib? Jesus, talk about anachronisms!
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Hailing Port: Oriental, NC
Sailing out of Lower Broad Creek
Ken Coit wrote: Jim,
Andy is just kidding. Don't believe it!
Actually, he isn't, but I am worried about his not keeping the mast in column. Lots of us use Teflon in our stuffing boxes; the original formulations may not have been what they are today. Stainless shafts are pretty controversial too unless you figure out how to keep them bathed in oxygen; starve them of oxygen and you have problems.
Most of us really like bronze, but don't talk about polishing it. Green patina is much nicer.
1/4" flax is the right one for all Cape Dorys, but some of us substitute the dripless stuff for a round or two.
Keep on sailing,
Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC
Andy Denmark wrote: Hi Jim,
While it is of good general use and serves up "safe" guidelines for the care and maintenance of your boat, the Cape Dory manual is full of anachronisms. Sailing, boats, and related technology have come a long way since that manual was printed. There is no harm to using Teflon packing, as witnessed by many on this board who do so. A combination of flax and Teflon works well, too. Other things that are seriously outdated in the manual regard "masts in column," acetone that attacks cured gel coat (not), and a myriad of other things that technology surpassed or disproved decades ago. On the other side of the coin, you will make solid conservative choices if you follow the manual. I enjoy taking advantage of advancements in sailboat-related technology while others do not. There are entrenched believers on all sides. It's a tough boat and difficult to hurt with improved technology.
My $.02 worth.
Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC
trekker@coastalnet.com
-
Jim
Re: Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
Tom:
Thanks for your comments and to the others on this board for their comments as well. You mention that you've had teflon packing in your stufffing box since 1991. Do you mean that you have been using teflon packing since 1991 and replacing it every few years or that the teflon packing was installed in 1991 and has not been replaced since that time? I have only had my 22D for < 2 months--has not been launched yet, thus, the questions.
Jim
atea@att.net
Thanks for your comments and to the others on this board for their comments as well. You mention that you've had teflon packing in your stufffing box since 1991. Do you mean that you have been using teflon packing since 1991 and replacing it every few years or that the teflon packing was installed in 1991 and has not been replaced since that time? I have only had my 22D for < 2 months--has not been launched yet, thus, the questions.
Jim
Tom wrote: Andy is exactly right. While none of us knows why Cape Dory recommended that in the manual, my speculation is that at the time the manual was printed the new teflon packings were just coming on the market and hadn't had much field testing. CD being a traditional minded company, CD took the tack that said the old flax packing has been working for 200 years or whatever, so before we start recommending new-fangled things that have just come on the market we want to be sure they are time proven. You can't go wrong recommending something that's been working for centuries, so we're probably better being conservative and recommending proven technology than taking a chance on some new thing that might sink a boat. Remember Deks Olje that was going to revolutionize the varnish industry?
Two tings have happened since the manual was printed about 15 years ago. First, the teflon packings have been improved. Second, the teflon packings have been used now for 15 or almost 20 years with great success. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it -- have you? I've had mine in the stuffing box since 1991. At that time only a few places carried it and it was very expensive. I finally split a pack with a friend to get the cost down. It has never dripped and I've never had to adjust it in over 10 years. Everyone that I know has gone to it or a PSS system.
At the time the CD manual was printed I believe that no new boats came with teflon packings. A traditional company such as CD wouldn't likely be the first to endorse some new system. Without taking a survey I believe I'm correct in saying that most new boats come with it today. The guys at the boatyard say it's great stuff and they've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. And one nice thing about it (unlike PSS) is that it's cheap to try and if you don't like it or have a problem with it it's really simple to go back to the old stuff. At the next haulout you just pull it out of there and put the old stuff back in, because you're still using the original stuffing box. With the PSS system you're in over $ 100 and to go back you have to pull the prop shaft and re-install the old stuffing box.
BTW the Cape Dory manual is wrong about leaving the transmission in forward gear when you're sailing with the Universal engine off also.
This BB has a large readership. Has anyone ever had a problem with the teflon packing? Or heard of somebody having a problem with it? I wonder if it says the same thing in the new Robinhood manual today? Do the new Robinhood boats still use strictly flax packing? You can't go wrong sticking with the tried and true, but I like the teflon stuff and don't have any qualms about it.
Jim wrote: My CD Manual for the 22D specifies that 1/4" waxed flax packing be used and not to use synthetic or teflon packing. In the manual that I have it seems that this recommendation applies to "all CDY stuffing boxes" (quote from Manual). I have seen a number of recent posts where teflon packing has been used and apparently with success. Is waxed flax packing required for some CDs or all of them? Should I re-pack with the waxed flax packing or teflon or? Advantages and disadvantages of each? What is the reason(s)why CD recommended the waxed flax packing and cautioned against the use of the synthetics? Does this recommendation no longer apply? Thanks.
atea@att.net
-
Tom
Re: Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
The packing was installed in 1991 and has never been replaced and has never had to be adjusted. Still runs cool and drip free and has many many miles on it.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
Jim wrote: Tom:
Thanks for your comments and to the others on this board for their comments as well. You mention that you've had teflon packing in your stufffing box since 1991. Do you mean that you have been using teflon packing since 1991 and replacing it every few years or that the teflon packing was installed in 1991 and has not been replaced since that time? I have only had my 22D for < 2 months--has not been launched yet, thus, the questions.
Jim
Tom wrote: Andy is exactly right. While none of us knows why Cape Dory recommended that in the manual, my speculation is that at the time the manual was printed the new teflon packings were just coming on the market and hadn't had much field testing. CD being a traditional minded company, CD took the tack that said the old flax packing has been working for 200 years or whatever, so before we start recommending new-fangled things that have just come on the market we want to be sure they are time proven. You can't go wrong recommending something that's been working for centuries, so we're probably better being conservative and recommending proven technology than taking a chance on some new thing that might sink a boat. Remember Deks Olje that was going to revolutionize the varnish industry?
Two tings have happened since the manual was printed about 15 years ago. First, the teflon packings have been improved. Second, the teflon packings have been used now for 15 or almost 20 years with great success. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with it -- have you? I've had mine in the stuffing box since 1991. At that time only a few places carried it and it was very expensive. I finally split a pack with a friend to get the cost down. It has never dripped and I've never had to adjust it in over 10 years. Everyone that I know has gone to it or a PSS system.
At the time the CD manual was printed I believe that no new boats came with teflon packings. A traditional company such as CD wouldn't likely be the first to endorse some new system. Without taking a survey I believe I'm correct in saying that most new boats come with it today. The guys at the boatyard say it's great stuff and they've never heard of anyone having a problem with it. And one nice thing about it (unlike PSS) is that it's cheap to try and if you don't like it or have a problem with it it's really simple to go back to the old stuff. At the next haulout you just pull it out of there and put the old stuff back in, because you're still using the original stuffing box. With the PSS system you're in over $ 100 and to go back you have to pull the prop shaft and re-install the old stuffing box.
BTW the Cape Dory manual is wrong about leaving the transmission in forward gear when you're sailing with the Universal engine off also.
This BB has a large readership. Has anyone ever had a problem with the teflon packing? Or heard of somebody having a problem with it? I wonder if it says the same thing in the new Robinhood manual today? Do the new Robinhood boats still use strictly flax packing? You can't go wrong sticking with the tried and true, but I like the teflon stuff and don't have any qualms about it.
Jim wrote: My CD Manual for the 22D specifies that 1/4" waxed flax packing be used and not to use synthetic or teflon packing. In the manual that I have it seems that this recommendation applies to "all CDY stuffing boxes" (quote from Manual). I have seen a number of recent posts where teflon packing has been used and apparently with success. Is waxed flax packing required for some CDs or all of them? Should I re-pack with the waxed flax packing or teflon or? Advantages and disadvantages of each? What is the reason(s)why CD recommended the waxed flax packing and cautioned against the use of the synthetics? Does this recommendation no longer apply? Thanks.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
-
Bob
Re: Packing for Stuffing Box on CD22D?
When the manual was published tallow lubed flax was considered suitable for cold salt water applications such as yours. The packing industry has gone from vegetable fiber to synthetic fibers because
the vegetable fibers such as flax were being attacked by organisms
in the salt water.
Teflon is the fiber of choice for cold water slow speed applications. An enhanced teflon fiber packing that is currently available is GFO fiber packing. The GFO fiber is teflon
& graphite extruded in to yarn & braided into a packing.
Packing manufacturers offer other synthetic fibers(aramid, fibeglass,kevlar, etc.) with either a teflon or graphite & petro-
lem or petroleum substitute lubricant. These synethetic yarns when the teflon, graphite or lubricant washes out will damage the shaft
surface similar to a brake pad on a drum or rotor in vehicle.
GFO fiber packing or an equal is sold on spools. It should be available at your local marine or industrial supply distributor
or gasket,packing & seal distributor. If you are unable to get
locally e mail sales@gaddisinc.com in SC & they will quote you.
If the shaft surface the packing is used on is scored or damaged
so conventional packing will not seal. The shaft should be replaced. The following are some basic repacking instructions.
A. Clean out all the old packing.
B. Clean shaft and stuffing box.
C. Spray shaft and stuffing box with aersol liquid lubricant
D. Wrap the packing around the shaft & cut the first length
to fit with a straight cut.
E. Measure the first length, then try it in the stuffing box.
If it is good fit with a slight squeeze at the joint, install
in the bottom box. If not, repeat instructions "D" & "E" until
your reach a good fit.
F. Once instructions "D" & "E" are completed, cut each ring to the
correct length. Install each ring one at a time. Each ring must be
seated next to the previous ring with the joint approximately 120
degrees from the joint on the previous ring. This is very
important otherwise you will not seal the salt water if all the
joints are in the same location
location.
G. Hand tighten packing nut after installed
H. After hand tightening increase tension by only 1 flat on the nut
with wrench.
I. Make sure shaft turns by hand if not back off by 1/2 flat
& make sure shaft turns by hand.
J. Start shaft turning
H. Further adjustments do while shaft is running by 1/2 flat at a
time until 2-3 drops a minute leakage.
I. Packing must leak. The packing is lubricated by the salt water.
If the packing doesn't. leak the rings will eventually burn up &
damage the shaft.
Good luck with your repacking.
the vegetable fibers such as flax were being attacked by organisms
in the salt water.
Teflon is the fiber of choice for cold water slow speed applications. An enhanced teflon fiber packing that is currently available is GFO fiber packing. The GFO fiber is teflon
& graphite extruded in to yarn & braided into a packing.
Packing manufacturers offer other synthetic fibers(aramid, fibeglass,kevlar, etc.) with either a teflon or graphite & petro-
lem or petroleum substitute lubricant. These synethetic yarns when the teflon, graphite or lubricant washes out will damage the shaft
surface similar to a brake pad on a drum or rotor in vehicle.
GFO fiber packing or an equal is sold on spools. It should be available at your local marine or industrial supply distributor
or gasket,packing & seal distributor. If you are unable to get
locally e mail sales@gaddisinc.com in SC & they will quote you.
If the shaft surface the packing is used on is scored or damaged
so conventional packing will not seal. The shaft should be replaced. The following are some basic repacking instructions.
A. Clean out all the old packing.
B. Clean shaft and stuffing box.
C. Spray shaft and stuffing box with aersol liquid lubricant
D. Wrap the packing around the shaft & cut the first length
to fit with a straight cut.
E. Measure the first length, then try it in the stuffing box.
If it is good fit with a slight squeeze at the joint, install
in the bottom box. If not, repeat instructions "D" & "E" until
your reach a good fit.
F. Once instructions "D" & "E" are completed, cut each ring to the
correct length. Install each ring one at a time. Each ring must be
seated next to the previous ring with the joint approximately 120
degrees from the joint on the previous ring. This is very
important otherwise you will not seal the salt water if all the
joints are in the same location
location.
G. Hand tighten packing nut after installed
H. After hand tightening increase tension by only 1 flat on the nut
with wrench.
I. Make sure shaft turns by hand if not back off by 1/2 flat
& make sure shaft turns by hand.
J. Start shaft turning
H. Further adjustments do while shaft is running by 1/2 flat at a
time until 2-3 drops a minute leakage.
I. Packing must leak. The packing is lubricated by the salt water.
If the packing doesn't. leak the rings will eventually burn up &
damage the shaft.
Good luck with your repacking.