CD27: Weather Helm

[RIchard Gelfand]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal for the CD27? My mast is tunned so that there is a fair amount of rake aft. Is this correct? Has anyone any experience with excess weather helm and suggestions as to how to correct it? Thanks for your help.



Aldajon@aol.com

[Duncan Maio]

How much weather helm is normal for the CD27?

Richard:

I don't know how much is normal, but weather helm is noticeable on Remedy (CD27 #37) whenever we don't have the jib out, and sometimes in heavy air - in part, I believe, because we typically use only a working jib.

Tuning your rig aft will tend to increase weather helm; adjusting the stays and shrouds will take care of that, and may solve your problem. Sail trim can also be a factor.

Duncan Maio



dmaio@att.net

[Jim Jamieson]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal?

CYLAN II, hull#99 has a lot of weather helm if the wind is much>10-15kt. The first step to reduce it is to keep the boat heeled no more than15 degrees. You can initially bring her up a bit by spilling air from the main: drop the traveller to the lee side. Let the main out a bit so there is a slight luff. If you still have to fight it, reef the main. That fixes it usually. The jib I have is a 150% roller furler. Reefing this about 1/3 when it pipes up also reduces heel. Heel, BTW, puts the turning fulcrum outboard and makes the boat want to come up. This gives you heel. Trial and error. Took me about a season to figure the weather helm out. CYLAN is still very tender: drop the tiller for 2 secs and she comes into the wind. Mast rake forward is impossible to adjust: fore stay fixed bec. of the roller furler.
jim

e-mail me if you want.



james.jamieson@yale.edu

[sam ulbing]

I think all Alberg designed boats tend to have some weather helm. My CD40 had some especially on a reach in heavier winds (when the long boom is out a way) but never on a true beat. I also had a Westsail 32 which had the same problem. My solution for both- which has worked very well- is to get the sail maker to remove the battens and roach on the main. Horrors!! But it worked well and as a side benefit, it is possible to reef or unreef the main while off the wind as there are no battens to get caught in the rigging. if you don't think that is a big advantage try dropping the main when it is 25 knots and 5 foot seas by heading up. I see no loss in speed except perhpas in a down wind situation when the wind is less than 5 knots and in this situation the motor still works as well as ever!!

[bob loewenstein]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal for the CD27? My mast is tunned so that there is a fair amount of rake aft. Is this correct? Has anyone any experience with excess weather helm and suggestions as to how to correct it? Thanks for your help

All Albergs have weather helm (as far as I can tell). On my 27', I make sure the mast is raked reasonably forward. With a 155 foresail and regular battened main, there is not much weather helm until the boat starts to heel about 10-15 degrees. When the wind reaches about 12-15 knots, spilling a little wind from the main helps. At 15 knots, I change to the working jib and the boat handles wonderfully, with very little weather helm. If the wind goes up more and the boat heels under these conditions, I reef the main.

I've found that if I have the correct sails up, I can leave the helm and the boat will continue in its general direction. Eventually, it will head up, though.



rfl@yerkes.uchicago.edu

[Steve]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal for the CD27? My mast is tunned so that there is a fair amount of rake aft. Is this correct? Has anyone any experience with excess weather helm and suggestions as to how to correct it? Thanks for your help.

Weather helm while reaching is common on full keel boats. The solution on my 25D is to keep the boat on its feet by reducing sail and using the traveler. Move the center of effort forward when you experience weather helm. That is to say, flatten the sail via the outhaul, halyard and cunningham tension, and if necessary, reef the main first before reducing headsail area. After properly trimming the main, drop the traveller until weatherhelm disappears. Also, problems with weatherhelm on my boat have been much reduced after replacing the old, somewhat blown-out mainsail with a new main with a flatter cut.

[Too embarrassed to list]

and how do I know I have it, and is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Don Sargeant]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal for the CD27? My mast is tunned so that there is a fair amount of rake aft. Is this correct? Has anyone any experience with excess weather helm and suggestions as to how to correct it? Thanks for your help.

My previous boat didn't have an adjustable traveler, so how does it affect sail trim other than the obvious act of letting it out downwind?

Weather helm while reaching is common on full keel boats. The solution on my 25D is to keep the boat on its feet by reducing sail and using the traveler. Move the center of effort forward when you experience weather helm. That is to say, flatten the sail via the outhaul, halyard and cunningham tension, and if necessary, reef the main first before reducing headsail area. After properly trimming the main, drop the traveller until weatherhelm disappears. Also, problems with weatherhelm on my boat have been much reduced after replacing the old, somewhat blown-out mainsail with a new main with a flatter cut.

don@cliggott.com

[Don S.]

and how do I know I have it, and is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Weather helm is a good thing. The opposite,LEE HELM, is bad thing. Very bad. Weather helm is the tendency of the boat to round up into the wind as the wind gets stronger. it is demonstrated mostly by the helmsman having to pull the tiller to "weather", the side the wind is coming from, in order to keep the boat on course. The fact a boat will come up into the wind if left on it's own is very important safety factor.



don@cliggott.com

[Jon Larson]

Richard, I've often read of having a cruising main with no battens and perhaps even negative roach. If I had ever bought a new main for PERI, I'd have explored that idea with the sailmaker. Glad it worked for you and I'd have probably done the same thing, especially given the consistant strong winds here on San Francisco Bay, one sails reefed much of the time anyhow. By the way, much maintainance on PERI's main over the year has been in the area of batten pockets.

An earlier poster talked about the dynamics of heeling and weather helm. As you heel, the center of effort of force moving the boat forward is moving outboard (since the "push" is someplace up on the mast) while the center of resistance stays with the hull. The resulting couple is a rotational force that is going to increase weather helm no matter what. Sailing PERI with just a yankee alone in high winds with heel results in some weather helm because of that couple effect. So, It's not just the sails that do it, though the sails and trim can sure make it worse.

Jon Larson
Cape Dory 30 PERI
San Francisco Bay

I think all Alberg designed boats tend to have some weather helm. My CD40 had some especially on a reach in heavier winds (when the long boom is out a way) but never on a true beat. I also had a Westsail 32 which had the same problem. My solution for both- which has worked very well- is to get the sail maker to remove the battens and roach on the main. Horrors!! But it worked well and as a side benefit, it is possible to reef or unreef the main while off the wind as there are no battens to get caught in the rigging. if you don't think that is a big advantage try dropping the main when it is 25 knots and 5 foot seas by heading up. I see no loss in speed except perhpas in a down wind situation when the wind is less than 5 knots and in this situation the motor still works as well as ever!!

jon9@ix.netcom.com

[Bruce Bradford]

A new CD27 owner and just starting to sail my boat. How much weather helm is normal for the CD27? My mast is tunned so that there is a fair amount of rake aft. Is this correct? Has anyone any experience with excess weather helm and suggestions as to how to correct it? Thanks for your help.

The fact that your mast is raked aft is definately increasing your weather helm to an unacceptable level. You will immediately want to move it foreward until the mast is as straight up as possible (no rake foreward or aft).

Generally a little weather helm is a good thing -- it is considered safe in cases where you may fall of the boat, or fall down unconscience. The boat should head up and stop sailing. Any more then a slight weather helm is slowing you down and creating steering problems (even unnecessary stress on the steering system).

Advise: pick a typical light to medium wind for your area (10 knots?), remove the rake, and shoot for a minor weather helm. To far foreward is not good -- but start by easing the backstay and back shrouds, and then tighten up the forestay and the fore shrouds. Do this until the helm is balanced or until it is straight up (no farther). As the wind picks up, you will have the options to ease the additional weather helm by easing the travellor down wind, or reefing the main, or if needed ease the mainsheet (allowing a twist in the main to depower it). ALWAYS adjust your sails for best balance (which is usually the fastest) instead of for max power. I bet that since a CD appeals to you, the extra bit of speed is not the most important thing to you.

If these basic techniques don't work on your boat (and they should), then take more drastic steps -- including getting the advise of sailmakers (a smaller main?) and/or a marine architect. These are probably not necessary.

By all means, stop fighting the helm. Remove mast rake and learn various ways to depower the main and balance the rig.



mbbradford@yahoo.com

[M. R. Bober]

A small price to pay. Owned a 1979 CD27 for 18 years, and even under head sail alone she "tended to round up". Fortunately a reef in the main will balance the helm. Remember this boat with her fine entry doesn't suffer much under reduced sail.



mitchb@helix.org