Rigging tune talk

[Eric]

All this talk about Loos Gauges and the like is having an effect on my sense of well-being. Besides the usual gadget envy, I am worried that my practice of tuning the rigging on Allia is not adequate, or even dangerous.

Could somebody let me know whether it's really necessary to use the gadget?

Eric
Owner S/V Allia
CD 25
Manchester, MA (headed to the get-together on the South Shore June 21)

[Will W.]

I too had gadjet envy when I first tuned in to this. Unfortunatly for the 25 you need 2 sizes. I will admit that I used a very scientific method for tuning my rig. I remembered from when I took them down about how tight they were. Then to ensure that my method was sound I went around the marina and twanged the rigs on several boats about my size. I think I got it right. This Hand Twang method is certainly controvercial but is it dangerous? I don't think so but I will keep checking them whenever I sail just to make sure nothing is going wrong. I just got back from 5 days on the water, some of it in really nasty stuff. The Hand Twang did not fail.
.
I think if I owned a larger boat I would probably want things a little more precise but for our 25s and its moderate total sq footage of sail, I am not worried about it.
At some point I will run up to Deale MD and get a rigger to see how it looks. Hopefullly he won't tell me how close I have been to loosing the mast over the side. As I said, I am not worried.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
Sailing from Chesapeake Beach ,MD

All this talk about Loos Gauges and the like is having an effect on my sense of well-being. Besides the usual gadget envy, I am worried that my practice of tuning the rigging on Allia is not adequate, or even dangerous.

Could somebody let me know whether it's really necessary to use the gadget?

Eric
Owner S/V Allia
CD 25
Manchester, MA (headed to the get-together on the South Shore June 21)

willwheatley@starpower.net

[Dana]

Too loose and the shrouds flex, leading to some untwisting motion of the strands with wear as it flexes....too tight means excess stain on the hull and fittings....measurement also means balance of sail for port/starboard tacks.....measurement is the only means of determination...



darenius@aol.com

[Kurt]

For almost 25 years I've been tuning the standing rigging on my boats by 'feel' and have never had a problem...
Two weeks ago I was at a local boaters swap meet and picked up a used Loos gauge for $10.00...I used it to check my work and as it turns out, I'm in the ball park. So go ahead and tighten it by feel...but don't get ridiculous about making the rigging too tight. Start out by making everything snug and then watch the lee shrouds when sailing to windward in a breeze...if they appear slack, you need to tighten them up a bit. If you see a lot of curve in the headstay...then that needs to be tightened a bit too. Hope this helps



kjlgpw@aol.com

[eric]

That's exactly what I do

For almost 25 years I've been tuning the standing rigging on my boats by 'feel' and have never had a problem...
Two weeks ago I was at a local boaters swap meet and picked up a used Loos gauge for $10.00...I used it to check my work and as it turns out, I'm in the ball park. So go ahead and tighten it by feel...but don't get ridiculous about making the rigging too tight. Start out by making everything snug and then watch the lee shrouds when sailing to windward in a breeze...if they appear slack, you need to tighten them up a bit. If you see a lot of curve in the headstay...then that needs to be tightened a bit too. Hope this helps

[Andy Denmark]

If you have a multiple spreader rig with checkstays, runners, multiple uppers, and the like, then a Loos guage is essential. For the simple traditional rigs the Cape Dories have, the Loos is absolutely unnecessary. It is a simple matter to tune a CD rig by eyeball with only a measuring tape.

IMHO, irreparable harm can EASILY be done to your boat's hull with tension guages. For the record, even on all-out racing machines the lee shrouds are supposed to be slack -- even rod rigging recommendations for the maxi boats proscribe that the lee uppers
rotate in a four inch circle when hard on the wind.

There will be lots of talk about this post but I won't be here to comment as I'm going out of town. Trust me -- you can do serious harm to your boat by overtightening the rig, especially if you go by the Loos specs. There is many a racing boat out there that has been ruined by overtensioning the hydraulic backstay -- it's a common failure mode. There's a message in this.

The Loos guages are nice and help but not needed for anything but the most basic applications, then only very conservatively.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC



trekker@coastalnet.com

[Joe Sankey]

I have never used a Loos gauge, but I also don't underestimate the potential value of using one. However, when my sailmaker (one of the most successful racing sailors in our part of the woods, and also skipper of several national one design championships) was checking out a new sail, we sighted up the mast under various circumstances in about 18-20 knots to make sure the mast was in column. Another thing I also recall the recommendations of successful Ensign sailors I read years ago warning about overtensioning the rig; no mention of Loos gauges, just practical advice on how to adjust it by feel. They like theirs loose! It seems to me that keeping the mast straight is the issue, in whatever winds are normal for you.
Joe Sankey
CD 30 Slow Dance
Magnolia Springs, AL

All this talk about Loos Gauges and the like is having an effect on my sense of well-being. Besides the usual gadget envy, I am worried that my practice of tuning the rigging on Allia is not adequate, or even dangerous.

Could somebody let me know whether it's really necessary to use the gadget?

Eric
Owner S/V Allia
CD 25
Manchester, MA (headed to the get-together on the South Shore June 21)

sankey@gulftel.com

[Bill Goldsmith]

In recent posts about Loos Guages, I recall a post analyzing the economics of Loos Guages, even to the point of a cooperative purchase to defray the high expense! However, I did notice that the cost analysis was based on the professional guages, priced at $69.99, $74.99 and $144.99. Those are the PRO quality versions. However, they also make regular quality guages that cost $44.99 and $49.99. The regular version is more than adequate to check tension and to make sure you're not overtensioned.

Bill Goldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance

All this talk about Loos Gauges and the like is having an effect on my sense of well-being. Besides the usual gadget envy, I am worried that my practice of tuning the rigging on Allia is not adequate, or even dangerous.

Could somebody let me know whether it's really necessary to use the gadget?

Eric
Owner S/V Allia
CD 25
Manchester, MA (headed to the get-together on the South Shore June 21)

goldy@bestweb.net

[Matt Cawthorne]

Eric,
I follow the theory that bending puts more fatigue stress in the threaded fittings than a steady tension. Therefore I step the mast, snug up the wires and start checking the mast for straightness. Sight up the mast track for that. Take it for a sail. While under load watch the mast track and see how it behaves as well as any slack wires. The lee wires should not feel particularly loose or stay bar tight. One thing that most folks do not understand is that the stiffness of the wire is a strong function of the preload in the wire. Therefore, if you have a mast that is not staying straight, you can stiffen one group of wires by increasing the preload in them. For example, if the top of the mast is bending to leeward, you can tighten both of the upper shrouds. The increase in force that you put on both sides of the mast is the same, but the wire has a higher stiffness and will not allow the top of the mast to bend away relative to the midpoint. If there is any question about this wire stiffness effect you can get an old copy of Mil-hdbk-5 (I think it was revision b or c). We had to deal with this effect in aircraft control cables.

Dont forget to keep the spreaders in the correct position. You do not want the spreaders loaded in bending. Stand well in front of the boat and look at the angle formed between the spreaders and the wire. The spreader should bisect the angle formed by the bend in the shroud. If you have slack leeward wires you should put some sort of device to hold the spreader in position when the friction will not be there. If you do not do this the pin holes can elongate at the base of the spreader and eventually the angle can get large enough that the spreader could fail. When I first discovered this on my boat the elongation was very significant. I clamp a piece of rubber hose to the shroud to hold up the spreader. As always, crevice corrosion can happen under such devices so they should be checked once in a while.

Matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[Larry DeMers]

Andy,

I can see how over tightening (what ever the measurement method..Loos gauge or manually) can create a bannanna boat, by warping the boat longitudinally. By geez, I cannot go along with your statement that a Loos gauge is unnecessary.
First of all, the Loos gauge is the measurement tool, but not the authority on how tight your rig should be. If owners are depending on the Loos Co. to figure out what tension is right for their boat, they are asking the wrong people. I doubt that anyone at Loos has even been in a sailboat, much less is able to tell you what the rig tension should be. For that you need evidence based on experience from fellow sailors or the company itself.

The benefit that Loos brings to our boats, is that the shrouds are all set to an identical tension, assuring that the performance on each tack is similar. I have set my shroud tension every year, as we pull the mast in the fall, for storage. The first few years, I did this ritual by hand, and I had the rig bar tight or horribly loose. I suspect that this is the common experience people have. After using the Loos gauge, I found the work to be easier (less guessing), more precise (less touching up as the season goes on), and a way to actually know what you are setting the rig tension to.

Certainly a sailor can do a rig himself, without a Loos Gauge, if that is the way he wants to go. They then have to put up with a rig that is different from one tack to another, and they will have the uncertainty that guessing results in. But for those that want to know what their tension is, the Loos gauge is the only way to go.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

If you have a multiple spreader rig with checkstays, runners, multiple uppers, and the like, then a Loos guage is essential. For the simple traditional rigs the Cape Dories have, the Loos is absolutely unnecessary. It is a simple matter to tune a CD rig by eyeball with only a measuring tape.

IMHO, irreparable harm can EASILY be done to your boat's hull with tension guages. For the record, even on all-out racing machines the lee shrouds are supposed to be slack -- even rod rigging recommendations for the maxi boats proscribe that the lee uppers
rotate in a four inch circle when hard on the wind.

There will be lots of talk about this post but I won't be here to comment as I'm going out of town. Trust me -- you can do serious harm to your boat by overtightening the rig, especially if you go by the Loos specs. There is many a racing boat out there that has been ruined by overtensioning the hydraulic backstay -- it's a common failure mode. There's a message in this.

The Loos guages are nice and help but not needed for anything but the most basic applications, then only very conservatively.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

demers@sgi.com

[Andy Denmark]

Larry,

I have just spent the better part of an hour crafting a reply to your last. When I went to "Preview" my message it totally dumped my reply. Either I'm doing something wrong, or the BBS is malfunctioning. This is the second time in as many days that this has happened and I am pissed!

Don't feel I'm neglecting you -- I'm not -- but need to cool off before trying this agian.

Regards,

Andy

Andy,

I can see how over tightening (what ever the measurement method..Loos gauge or manually) can create a bannanna boat, by warping the boat longitudinally. By geez, I cannot go along with your statement that a Loos gauge is unnecessary.
First of all, the Loos gauge is the measurement tool, but not the authority on how tight your rig should be. If owners are depending on the Loos Co. to figure out what tension is right for their boat, they are asking the wrong people. I doubt that anyone at Loos has even been in a sailboat, much less is able to tell you what the rig tension should be. For that you need evidence based on experience from fellow sailors or the company itself.

The benefit that Loos brings to our boats, is that the shrouds are all set to an identical tension, assuring that the performance on each tack is similar. I have set my shroud tension every year, as we pull the mast in the fall, for storage. The first few years, I did this ritual by hand, and I had the rig bar tight or horribly loose. I suspect that this is the common experience people have. After using the Loos gauge, I found the work to be easier (less guessing), more precise (less touching up as the season goes on), and a way to actually know what you are setting the rig tension to.

Certainly a sailor can do a rig himself, without a Loos Gauge, if that is the way he wants to go. They then have to put up with a rig that is different from one tack to another, and they will have the uncertainty that guessing results in. But for those that want to know what their tension is, the Loos gauge is the only way to go.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

If you have a multiple spreader rig with checkstays, runners, multiple uppers, and the like, then a Loos guage is essential. For the simple traditional rigs the Cape Dories have, the Loos is absolutely unnecessary. It is a simple matter to tune a CD rig by eyeball with only a measuring tape.

IMHO, irreparable harm can EASILY be done to your boat's hull with tension guages. For the record, even on all-out racing machines the lee shrouds are supposed to be slack -- even rod rigging recommendations for the maxi boats proscribe that the lee uppers
rotate in a four inch circle when hard on the wind.

There will be lots of talk about this post but I won't be here to comment as I'm going out of town. Trust me -- you can do serious harm to your boat by overtightening the rig, especially if you go by the Loos specs. There is many a racing boat out there that has been ruined by overtensioning the hydraulic backstay -- it's a common failure mode. There's a message in this.

The Loos guages are nice and help but not needed for anything but the most basic applications, then only very conservatively.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

trekker@coastalnet.com

[Larry DeMers]

Andy,

Had the same experiences last week..a couple times in fact. ANother one is getting that "Itchy FInger" Warning, even though I hit the send key once. The post is lost in the process, and never posted. Must be a bug in the soup somewhere.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 on Lk. Superior

Larry,

I have just spent the better part of an hour crafting a reply to your last. When I went to "Preview" my message it totally dumped my reply. Either I'm doing something wrong, or the BBS is malfunctioning. This is the second time in as many days that this has happened and I am pissed!

Don't feel I'm neglecting you -- I'm not -- but need to cool off before trying this agian.

Regards,

Andy

Andy,

I can see how over tightening (what ever the measurement method..Loos gauge or manually) can create a bannanna boat, by warping the boat longitudinally. By geez, I cannot go along with your statement that a Loos gauge is unnecessary.
First of all, the Loos gauge is the measurement tool, but not the authority on how tight your rig should be. If owners are depending on the Loos Co. to figure out what tension is right for their boat, they are asking the wrong people. I doubt that anyone at Loos has even been in a sailboat, much less is able to tell you what the rig tension should be. For that you need evidence based on experience from fellow sailors or the company itself.

The benefit that Loos brings to our boats, is that the shrouds are all set to an identical tension, assuring that the performance on each tack is similar. I have set my shroud tension every year, as we pull the mast in the fall, for storage. The first few years, I did this ritual by hand, and I had the rig bar tight or horribly loose. I suspect that this is the common experience people have. After using the Loos gauge, I found the work to be easier (less guessing), more precise (less touching up as the season goes on), and a way to actually know what you are setting the rig tension to.

Certainly a sailor can do a rig himself, without a Loos Gauge, if that is the way he wants to go. They then have to put up with a rig that is different from one tack to another, and they will have the uncertainty that guessing results in. But for those that want to know what their tension is, the Loos gauge is the only way to go.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

If you have a multiple spreader rig with checkstays, runners, multiple uppers, and the like, then a Loos guage is essential. For the simple traditional rigs the Cape Dories have, the Loos is absolutely unnecessary. It is a simple matter to tune a CD rig by eyeball with only a measuring tape.

IMHO, irreparable harm can EASILY be done to your boat's hull with tension guages. For the record, even on all-out racing machines the lee shrouds are supposed to be slack -- even rod rigging recommendations for the maxi boats proscribe that the lee uppers
rotate in a four inch circle when hard on the wind.

There will be lots of talk about this post but I won't be here to comment as I'm going out of town. Trust me -- you can do serious harm to your boat by overtightening the rig, especially if you go by the Loos specs. There is many a racing boat out there that has been ruined by overtensioning the hydraulic backstay -- it's a common failure mode. There's a message in this.

The Loos guages are nice and help but not needed for anything but the most basic applications, then only very conservatively.

Andy Denmark
CD-27 "Rhiannon"
Oriental, NC

demers@sgi.com

[Ken Coit]

Oh! Our web persons had me convinced I was the only one that ever got hit with that preview bug. My practice of late has been to copy my work before backing off the preview. Just select it all and hit Ctrl-C, that seems to be enough protection.

Keep on posting,

Ken



parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[Will W.]

I think this has happened to me as well. I just used the browsers BACK button to recover my work. This works with Netscape. Will

Oh! Our web persons had me convinced I was the only one that ever got hit with that preview bug. My practice of late has been to copy my work before backing off the preview. Just select it all and hit Ctrl-C, that seems to be enough protection.

Keep on posting,

Ken

willwheatley@starpower.net

[Assistant Webmaster]

From what we can tell, this is a "feature" of Microsoft Internet Explorer. Those of you having problems with long posts, are you using Internet Explorer? Version?

The browser is refreshing the screen before you have a chance to post. It also seems to be causing some interference if someone else is replying to the same message at the same time.

Try composing your posts offline if they're going to be long. Then you can copy/paste it into a message once you're online.

Cathy
CD32 Realization, #3
Assistant Webmaster



catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com