On my CD30K, I have what appears to be a leak which allows lube oil to leak from the gear to the v-drive...when I fill both to the full mark, within a couple weeks the v-drive is overfull and the gear is empty.
1. Has anyone else experienced this problem?
2. Has anyone split the gear/v-drive joint before, and are there any tricks? Any mechanical help would be appreciated, as I intend to DIY if possible.
Thanks
rowlandda@nswccd.navy.mil
Volvo MD7A gear/v-drive leak - please help
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Leo MacDonald
Re: Volvo MD7A gear/v-drive leak - please help
Hi David,
Had the same problem on 'Heather Ann' (1977 CD30K #57) with the same v-drive/MD7A arrangement. There is a seal between the transmission and the v-drive that will start to weep over time. Thinking I’m really minimizing wear, I put synthetic oil in the tranny and did that ever speed up the leakage - wrong move.
Removed the transmission/v-drive from the boat as one unit (VERY heavy) and delivered to a mechanic for seal replacement. Because of the weight and fit up seal, I also had the mechanics reinstall it (and that’s another long ugly story).
Where is your sailing area?
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
(Formally 'Heather Ann' CD30K #57)
Homeport; Groton, CT
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com
Had the same problem on 'Heather Ann' (1977 CD30K #57) with the same v-drive/MD7A arrangement. There is a seal between the transmission and the v-drive that will start to weep over time. Thinking I’m really minimizing wear, I put synthetic oil in the tranny and did that ever speed up the leakage - wrong move.
Removed the transmission/v-drive from the boat as one unit (VERY heavy) and delivered to a mechanic for seal replacement. Because of the weight and fit up seal, I also had the mechanics reinstall it (and that’s another long ugly story).
Where is your sailing area?
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
(Formally 'Heather Ann' CD30K #57)
Homeport; Groton, CT
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com
-
John R.
Synthetics
Leo,
I've got a question. Are you certain it was the synthetic that increased your seepage through the seal and not just additional wear from more hours? If so, how did you determine that? I ask because I've been around a few boats that went all synthetics and no one has had increased or new seepage as a result and I run it too but it hasn't had many hours on the synthetics. Some manufacturers say don't use it after running on organic for many hours but others say it makes no difference. The synthetic manufacturers I've talked with say it actually preserves seals better than organics. It would sure be nice to get the clear picture if enough people that have used it would post their results. Personally I think it is fine as long as a person uses the correct viscosity from what I have witnessed.
I've got a question. Are you certain it was the synthetic that increased your seepage through the seal and not just additional wear from more hours? If so, how did you determine that? I ask because I've been around a few boats that went all synthetics and no one has had increased or new seepage as a result and I run it too but it hasn't had many hours on the synthetics. Some manufacturers say don't use it after running on organic for many hours but others say it makes no difference. The synthetic manufacturers I've talked with say it actually preserves seals better than organics. It would sure be nice to get the clear picture if enough people that have used it would post their results. Personally I think it is fine as long as a person uses the correct viscosity from what I have witnessed.
Leo MacDonald wrote: Hi David,
Had the same problem on 'Heather Ann' (1977 CD30K #57) with the same v-drive/MD7A arrangement. There is a seal between the transmission and the v-drive that will start to weep over time. Thinking I’m really minimizing wear, I put synthetic oil in the tranny and did that ever speed up the leakage - wrong move.
Removed the transmission/v-drive from the boat as one unit (VERY heavy) and delivered to a mechanic for seal replacement. Because of the weight and fit up seal, I also had the mechanics reinstall it (and that’s another long ugly story).
Where is your sailing area?
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
(Formally 'Heather Ann' CD30K #57)
Homeport; Groton, CT
-
Leo MacDonald CD33
Re: Synthetics
Hi John,
I have been using synthetic oil ('Lubricam', 'Mobil-1', 'Amsoil') in my autos since 1976 and happy with it. They bring the wear as close to zero as possible, but they are VERY slippery. I spent a year chasing oil leakes in a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba (with 78,000 miles on it) after shifting to Amsoil.
After I replaced some engine seals and gaskets in 1997, I started using it in 'Heather Ann' (Volvo - MD7A). Everything worked fine.
In the fall 1999 oil change I started using it in the transmission. [On the v-drive boats the transmission and v-drive combo are inclined at some definite angle (that I have since forgotten) with the transmission higher than the v-drive.] During the 2000 season the oil started weeping by the small seal between the two, lowering the transmission oil level and raising the v-drive level. I should have known - knowledgeable mechanics and my own experience with a well-used engine taught me better!! With Petroleum based oil there is just enough wear on seals so that everything still functions effectively, but when you now shift to the synthetic oil it slips by.
This all led to the spring 2001 new cutlass bearing, a PSS Dripless shaft seal, new shaft and reworked stern tube (search around June 2001 for the ugly story).
I cannot comment as to the " . . .synthetic . . say it actually preserves seals better than organics."
If you have marginal seals in an older engine either:
- re-gasket & re-seal before (or after) shifting to synthetic,
- put up with the leakage (and prepare for fines) OR
- stay with petroleum based oil. (I just layed in a 3 oil change stock of Pennzoil for 'Evening Light'.)
I am fond of synthetics and will continue to use them in the cars & truck, but not on the boat - too much of a flap when you discharge leaves a 'sheen' on the water.
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
Homeport; Groton, CT
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com
I have been using synthetic oil ('Lubricam', 'Mobil-1', 'Amsoil') in my autos since 1976 and happy with it. They bring the wear as close to zero as possible, but they are VERY slippery. I spent a year chasing oil leakes in a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba (with 78,000 miles on it) after shifting to Amsoil.
After I replaced some engine seals and gaskets in 1997, I started using it in 'Heather Ann' (Volvo - MD7A). Everything worked fine.
In the fall 1999 oil change I started using it in the transmission. [On the v-drive boats the transmission and v-drive combo are inclined at some definite angle (that I have since forgotten) with the transmission higher than the v-drive.] During the 2000 season the oil started weeping by the small seal between the two, lowering the transmission oil level and raising the v-drive level. I should have known - knowledgeable mechanics and my own experience with a well-used engine taught me better!! With Petroleum based oil there is just enough wear on seals so that everything still functions effectively, but when you now shift to the synthetic oil it slips by.
This all led to the spring 2001 new cutlass bearing, a PSS Dripless shaft seal, new shaft and reworked stern tube (search around June 2001 for the ugly story).
I cannot comment as to the " . . .synthetic . . say it actually preserves seals better than organics."
If you have marginal seals in an older engine either:
- re-gasket & re-seal before (or after) shifting to synthetic,
- put up with the leakage (and prepare for fines) OR
- stay with petroleum based oil. (I just layed in a 3 oil change stock of Pennzoil for 'Evening Light'.)
I am fond of synthetics and will continue to use them in the cars & truck, but not on the boat - too much of a flap when you discharge leaves a 'sheen' on the water.
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
Homeport; Groton, CT
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com
-
David
seeking reply from Leo
Leo,
I tried to email you, maybe got the wrong address...how much did you pay the mechanic to change out the seal?
Also, I couldn't find your horror story from last June...any helpful keywords to search for?
Thanks,
David
rowlandda@nswccd.navy.mil
I tried to email you, maybe got the wrong address...how much did you pay the mechanic to change out the seal?
Also, I couldn't find your horror story from last June...any helpful keywords to search for?
Thanks,
David
rowlandda@nswccd.navy.mil
-
John R.
Thanks
Hi Leo,
That's a good outline of your experience with the synthetics and I for one appreciate your taking the time to explain it all. I too have used synthetics in cars for many years. In particular, I use only Castrol Syntec products. I know absolutely nothing about Amsoil. From an automotive perspective I have switched from organics to synthetics with engines having well over 80K mileage. One engine in particular in a VW Jetta had over 130K. None of those cars developed leakage except one which had a slight pan gasket leak which turned out to be nothing more than a couple bolts being slightly loose.
My Volvo MD7B has synthetic in it. No leaks. It always had Shell Turbo used in it previously. I originally contacted Volvo prior to using the synthetic and I never did reach anyone in the engineering department (whom I wanted to speak with) but I did speak to a guy in the service department (what his qualifications were to answer my questions I don't have a clue). Anyway, he voiced concerns about switching to the synthetic, he mentioned possibilities of seepage based on rumor, no first hand experience. He also mentioned engine tightness being a factor against seepage, again speculation but maybe quite valid. I spoke with the technical folks at Castrol up in New Jersey and they specifically told me synthetics have no detrimental effects on seals, it would actually preserve their life better. That's from the horses mouth, not my assumption. I can't verify nor dispute their point. They are the manufacturers of the oil and I wouldn't think they would make recommendations that could come back to haunt them. It might be a good idea to consult with other oil manufacturers as well, such as Amsoil that you had a problem with. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say about your use of their synthetic in your diesel.
Now, no one has ever discussed the good point you bring up about slickness. That seems like a good thing to think about and discuss from a laymans perspective. I can sure imagine that a slickness characteristic could potentially cause a problem in machinery with parts that are not in spec before a standard oil might. I certainly don't know that for fact but it seems a reasonable conclusion to draw.
You had success in some vehicles and not in the Chrysler and not in the boat. Those are two totally different engines, gas and diesel. Diesels foul oil far quicker than gas engines. Thus, theoretically it seems to me a synthetic in a boat would perform better in so far as minimizing seepage possibilities because the synthetic running in a diesel will contain much more in the way of carbons and other components than in a gas engine. That seems it would tend to reduce its slickness and flow, making it similar in consistency like standard oil being used in a gas engine. I'm just assuming this. I just don't understand why some boats, older and newer are having different experiences. It just seems very odd, I'm certainly puzzled.
Maybe some of this has to do with the brand of synthetic just like traditional oils perform differently by brand and quality. It seems to me if an oil whether it be traditional oil or synthetic oil would perform without complications as long as it meets or exceeds API service requirements for the particular type of engine or transmision. See the link below to access the ratings.
I think what we (based on your experiences and mine) may be actually addressing here is simply an overall *wear* and age situation. Very hard to say for sure. I think there is a lot of assuming going on by everyone when it comes to the various lubricants. We can only go by our own experiences and there are so many variables involved that I think it would be virtually impossible to say for certain whether an engine or trans should use synthetics unless we know more about the make up of the oil and the history of the machinery. Time for the experts to make available testing reports on the synthetic applications.
Thanks for your outline Leo. I hope others post their experiences also.
That's a good outline of your experience with the synthetics and I for one appreciate your taking the time to explain it all. I too have used synthetics in cars for many years. In particular, I use only Castrol Syntec products. I know absolutely nothing about Amsoil. From an automotive perspective I have switched from organics to synthetics with engines having well over 80K mileage. One engine in particular in a VW Jetta had over 130K. None of those cars developed leakage except one which had a slight pan gasket leak which turned out to be nothing more than a couple bolts being slightly loose.
My Volvo MD7B has synthetic in it. No leaks. It always had Shell Turbo used in it previously. I originally contacted Volvo prior to using the synthetic and I never did reach anyone in the engineering department (whom I wanted to speak with) but I did speak to a guy in the service department (what his qualifications were to answer my questions I don't have a clue). Anyway, he voiced concerns about switching to the synthetic, he mentioned possibilities of seepage based on rumor, no first hand experience. He also mentioned engine tightness being a factor against seepage, again speculation but maybe quite valid. I spoke with the technical folks at Castrol up in New Jersey and they specifically told me synthetics have no detrimental effects on seals, it would actually preserve their life better. That's from the horses mouth, not my assumption. I can't verify nor dispute their point. They are the manufacturers of the oil and I wouldn't think they would make recommendations that could come back to haunt them. It might be a good idea to consult with other oil manufacturers as well, such as Amsoil that you had a problem with. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say about your use of their synthetic in your diesel.
Now, no one has ever discussed the good point you bring up about slickness. That seems like a good thing to think about and discuss from a laymans perspective. I can sure imagine that a slickness characteristic could potentially cause a problem in machinery with parts that are not in spec before a standard oil might. I certainly don't know that for fact but it seems a reasonable conclusion to draw.
You had success in some vehicles and not in the Chrysler and not in the boat. Those are two totally different engines, gas and diesel. Diesels foul oil far quicker than gas engines. Thus, theoretically it seems to me a synthetic in a boat would perform better in so far as minimizing seepage possibilities because the synthetic running in a diesel will contain much more in the way of carbons and other components than in a gas engine. That seems it would tend to reduce its slickness and flow, making it similar in consistency like standard oil being used in a gas engine. I'm just assuming this. I just don't understand why some boats, older and newer are having different experiences. It just seems very odd, I'm certainly puzzled.
Maybe some of this has to do with the brand of synthetic just like traditional oils perform differently by brand and quality. It seems to me if an oil whether it be traditional oil or synthetic oil would perform without complications as long as it meets or exceeds API service requirements for the particular type of engine or transmision. See the link below to access the ratings.
I think what we (based on your experiences and mine) may be actually addressing here is simply an overall *wear* and age situation. Very hard to say for sure. I think there is a lot of assuming going on by everyone when it comes to the various lubricants. We can only go by our own experiences and there are so many variables involved that I think it would be virtually impossible to say for certain whether an engine or trans should use synthetics unless we know more about the make up of the oil and the history of the machinery. Time for the experts to make available testing reports on the synthetic applications.
Thanks for your outline Leo. I hope others post their experiences also.
Leo MacDonald CD33 wrote: Hi John,
I have been using synthetic oil ('Lubricam', 'Mobil-1', 'Amsoil') in my autos since 1976 and happy with it. They bring the wear as close to zero as possible, but they are VERY slippery. I spent a year chasing oil leakes in a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba (with 78,000 miles on it) after shifting to Amsoil.
After I replaced some engine seals and gaskets in 1997, I started using it in 'Heather Ann' (Volvo - MD7A). Everything worked fine.
In the fall 1999 oil change I started using it in the transmission. [On the v-drive boats the transmission and v-drive combo are inclined at some definite angle (that I have since forgotten) with the transmission higher than the v-drive.] During the 2000 season the oil started weeping by the small seal between the two, lowering the transmission oil level and raising the v-drive level. I should have known - knowledgeable mechanics and my own experience with a well-used engine taught me better!! With Petroleum based oil there is just enough wear on seals so that everything still functions effectively, but when you now shift to the synthetic oil it slips by.
This all led to the spring 2001 new cutlass bearing, a PSS Dripless shaft seal, new shaft and reworked stern tube (search around June 2001 for the ugly story).
I cannot comment as to the " . . .synthetic . . say it actually preserves seals better than organics."
If you have marginal seals in an older engine either:
- re-gasket & re-seal before (or after) shifting to synthetic,
- put up with the leakage (and prepare for fines) OR
- stay with petroleum based oil. (I just layed in a 3 oil change stock of Pennzoil for 'Evening Light'.)
I am fond of synthetics and will continue to use them in the cars & truck, but not on the boat - too much of a flap when you discharge leaves a 'sheen' on the water.
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
Homeport; Groton, CT
-
Chris Schnell
Request Clarification-Trans/V-drive
Leo...in your previous response you'd indicated that "
In the fall 1999 oil change I started using it in the transmission. [On the v-drive boats the transmission and v-drive combo are inclined at some definite angle (that I have since forgotten) with the transmission higher than the v-drive.] During the 2000 season the oil started weeping by the small seal between the two, lowering the transmission oil level and raising the v-drive level. I should have known - knowledgeable mechanics and my own experience with a well-used engine taught me better!! With Petroleum based oil there is just enough wear on seals so that everything still functions effectively, but when you now shift to the synthetic oil it slips by."
My request is this: Last year when I changed the oil in the engine and transmission (new purchase/haulout) I only changed the oil in the transmission casing where you take out the plug/dipstick! Is there a separate oil reservoir for the v-drive? I don't remember reading that in my MD7A manual that came with the boat, didn't see any additional drain plugs, etc....I thought they were integral. If they aren't then I haven't touched it in a year. Getting reading for my spring haulout this week and plan to service the engine and transmission again, so this will be very timely. Thanks in advance for the help.
Full Sails & Calm Seas,
Chris Schnell & Dale Hampton
s/v MADNESS III, CD30 #235
Southport, NC
swabbie@compaq.net
In the fall 1999 oil change I started using it in the transmission. [On the v-drive boats the transmission and v-drive combo are inclined at some definite angle (that I have since forgotten) with the transmission higher than the v-drive.] During the 2000 season the oil started weeping by the small seal between the two, lowering the transmission oil level and raising the v-drive level. I should have known - knowledgeable mechanics and my own experience with a well-used engine taught me better!! With Petroleum based oil there is just enough wear on seals so that everything still functions effectively, but when you now shift to the synthetic oil it slips by."
My request is this: Last year when I changed the oil in the engine and transmission (new purchase/haulout) I only changed the oil in the transmission casing where you take out the plug/dipstick! Is there a separate oil reservoir for the v-drive? I don't remember reading that in my MD7A manual that came with the boat, didn't see any additional drain plugs, etc....I thought they were integral. If they aren't then I haven't touched it in a year. Getting reading for my spring haulout this week and plan to service the engine and transmission again, so this will be very timely. Thanks in advance for the help.
Full Sails & Calm Seas,
Chris Schnell & Dale Hampton
s/v MADNESS III, CD30 #235
Southport, NC
swabbie@compaq.net
-
Ken Coit
Re: Request Clarification-Trans/V-drive
Chris,
Take a look at this: http://www.toolworks.com/cgi-bin/tw/wwb ... i?cd&33100
Ken
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
Take a look at this: http://www.toolworks.com/cgi-bin/tw/wwb ... i?cd&33100
Ken
parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com
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Randy Bates
Re: Synthetics
The change over to synthetics has caused many car engines to start to leak at the seals. The stuff is that slippery. It caused my 97 F250 to leak so I went back to crude, leak went away.
randy.bates@baesystems.com
John R. wrote: Leo,
I've got a question. Are you certain it was the synthetic that increased your seepage through the seal and not just additional wear from more hours? If so, how did you determine that? I ask because I've been around a few boats that went all synthetics and no one has had increased or new seepage as a result and I run it too but it hasn't had many hours on the synthetics. Some manufacturers say don't use it after running on organic for many hours but others say it makes no difference. The synthetic manufacturers I've talked with say it actually preserves seals better than organics. It would sure be nice to get the clear picture if enough people that have used it would post their results. Personally I think it is fine as long as a person uses the correct viscosity from what I have witnessed.
Leo MacDonald wrote: Hi David,
Had the same problem on 'Heather Ann' (1977 CD30K #57) with the same v-drive/MD7A arrangement. There is a seal between the transmission and the v-drive that will start to weep over time. Thinking I’m really minimizing wear, I put synthetic oil in the tranny and did that ever speed up the leakage - wrong move.
Removed the transmission/v-drive from the boat as one unit (VERY heavy) and delivered to a mechanic for seal replacement. Because of the weight and fit up seal, I also had the mechanics reinstall it (and that’s another long ugly story).
Where is your sailing area?
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33 #38
(Formally 'Heather Ann' CD30K #57)
Homeport; Groton, CT
randy.bates@baesystems.com
-
Leo MacDonald CD33
V-Drive drain/fill
Hi Chris,
Feel around on the bottom of the V-drive unit - you'll find it. The fill plug / dipstick is the brass looking bolt, port side as I remember it. Missing it for a few years may not be all that much to worry about - no combustion products and fairly slow speed.
Is you engine fresh water cooled?
Enjoy!
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33
Ported in Groton, CT USA
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com
Feel around on the bottom of the V-drive unit - you'll find it. The fill plug / dipstick is the brass looking bolt, port side as I remember it. Missing it for a few years may not be all that much to worry about - no combustion products and fairly slow speed.
Is you engine fresh water cooled?
Enjoy!
Fair Winds,
Leo MacDonald
'Evening Light' CD33
Ported in Groton, CT USA
macdoreNOSPAM@aol.com