my CD 25 engine (again)

[Eric]

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA



woodbe67@yahoo.com

[Ken Coit]

Eric,

First, even my lawnmower hates old gasoline. I'd sure start with some fresh fuel from a known source, not the old station with the water in the tanks.

Second, your problem sounds a lot like one I had on a Mercury 8 HP engine years ago. It would run and start fine when cold, but conk out when it was hot and refuse to restart for awhile. It turned out that the coil was cracked and it would open up when it got warm.

Good luck!


Keep on sailing,

Ken Coit
CD/14 #538
CD/36 #84 Parfait
Hailing Port: Raleigh, NC
Sailing from: Beaufort, NC

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA

parfaitNOSPAM@nc.rr.com

[Jim Myers]

I was told by mechanic that cars with fuel injectors love a little 2 cycle mixed gas so I empty my tanks into my car rather than let the gas get old. I have had no problems with the car (Passat)
Slightlly related to your problem. I have been using my Honda 2 hp long shaft in My CD25. Beleive it or not it pushes the boat beautifully. I wont use it on a cruise but for out and in my slip and marina it is great. It is also easy to pull out and stow when racing. Depending on your sailing style an easy solution would be a small engine that costs around what you spent on repairs.

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA

jmyers@styluscentral.com

[Eric]

I need the big engine. I like to go down to Maine in the summer and need power for worst-case scenarios.

ew

I was told by mechanic that cars with fuel injectors love a little 2 cycle mixed gas so I empty my tanks into my car rather than let the gas get old. I have had no problems with the car (Passat)
Slightlly related to your problem. I have been using my Honda 2 hp long shaft in My CD25. Beleive it or not it pushes the boat beautifully. I wont use it on a cruise but for out and in my slip and marina it is great. It is also easy to pull out and stow when racing. Depending on your sailing style an easy solution would be a small engine that costs around what you spent on repairs.

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA

[Boyd]

Eric...

Possibilities...

1. Bad Gas... just start over with new stuff.
2. Too much 2 cycle oil in the mix. Does it smoke?
3. Carb set way to rich. Check the float setting. Check the idle mix screw. I get a carb rebuild kit and redo the thing entirely. Goop settles in the float bowl and make the engine run bad.
4. Spark plug too cold... try a hotter plug.
5. Choke not opening completely.
6. Engine running cold... does this model have a thermostat?
7. Fuel pump not working... these are sometimes vacuum operated and a bad diaphram will stop you dead. Just rebuild it. Usually only 2 or 3 gaskets in the kit.
8. Prop wrong size or pitch for load type. The factory puts on a general purpose prop which may not be appropriate.
9. I think you got ripped off... take it back to them first and raise hell......you paid almost 1/2 the price of a new motor.

Boyd
s/v Tern
CD30 MkII
Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA

boyd@wbta.cc

[Will W.]

I added some of that stuff that is supposed to preserve your gas over the winter to about 5 gallons of mixed 2cycle gas. Does anyone know if this stuff works or should I just start with new gas? If the additive is innefective what can I do with the old gas? Thanks.

Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
Sailing from Chesapeake beach, MD

I was told by mechanic that cars with fuel injectors love a little 2 cycle mixed gas so I empty my tanks into my car rather than let the gas get old. I have had no problems with the car (Passat)
Slightlly related to your problem. I have been using my Honda 2 hp long shaft in My CD25. Beleive it or not it pushes the boat beautifully. I wont use it on a cruise but for out and in my slip and marina it is great. It is also easy to pull out and stow when racing. Depending on your sailing style an easy solution would be a small engine that costs around what you spent on repairs.

After having the Mariner 9.9 HP engine on Allia completely fail last summer, I took it to the local Mercury shop this winter for a total working over. The problem was that the spark plugs were becoming fouled after just a few minutes of use. Then the engine would stall/refuse to start and flood when I attempted to start again.

After $800 in reparis, I started the engine last weeked without a hitch (first time used this year) only to have it die 10 min later in the middle of Salem Bay. Seems to be the same problem.

My question is this. Could it be that I have a bad batch of gas? I'm using the same tank I had last summer when things went wrong. How can I start over? Do I need to get new hoses and tanks? I did take care care of the fuel over teh winter, but I can't help but think it's the fuel (or I was ripped off, which I can't deal with now).

Advice is greatly appreciated.

Eric
Owner S/V CD 25 Allia
Manchester, MA

willwheatley@starpower.net

[JimL]

Eric, one of the ugliest problems you'll ever tangle with is "heavy" fuel. This is gasoline with a high 90% distillation curve. This means the fuel requires high latent heat to vaporize. I've seen gasolines with 90% distillation temps above 440 degrees F. This can happen with specially blended fuels, designed for high performance or high continuous load applications. It can also happen when diesel fuel contaminates gasoline at relatively LOW levels (i.e. less than 10%). Lighter gasoline starts high volume vaporization at about 145 degrees, just to put it in perspective.

The symptoms of heavy fuel are black sooty exhaust, plug fouling, and (in 4-strokes) severe crankcase oil contamination. Heavy fuel has nothing to do with octane ratings (on the Salt Flats I actually run "too high" 118 octane fuel in order to get lighter fuel....we are restricted to a selection of gasolines approved by the organizers....they don't bring lower octane, such as 100-108, in light fuels). The excessive octane reduces my cars ability to make maximum power at high rpm, but heavy fuels will not vaporize due to my ice-water intercooler system (turbo engine). Years ago, Honda actually ran a fuel pre-heater to allow the use of heavier fuel (they needed the lowest octane provided at the Salt Flats). This allowed rapid vaporization and fast fuel burn.....needed for very high RPM. Our Salt Flats fuel issue is due to all the old timers running old iron Hemis, Ford Flatheads, Hudsons, etc. which have extremely hot intake ports. They need the heavy stuff to keep from getting into big detonation.....all us guys with small, modern engines are left "hanging" so to speak! We are not permitted to use pump gasoline in any engine....even stock class!

Fuel that is stored for a long time becomes heavier, due to the evaporation of the lighter components such as butane, propane, etc. This is a bigger problem on fuel stored in open vented containers. There's a surprising amount of these "light aromatics" in modern gasoline (light aromatics increase volume of gasoline, with attendant increase in profits!)

2-cycle engines are more sensitive to fuel because the "combustion window" is very short (effective cylinder pressure is lost when the piston is about halfway down the power stroke.....it all goes out the exhaust port). Add the oil mix (which is "really heavy" fuel!) and you can see how the combustion process goes bad. I use excess oil (above the manufacturers recommendation) because it keeps the engine alive.....I just make sure I have fresh 87 octane fuel (no high test).

I hope this helps you understand how customers and mechanics can get boxed into a corner, while trying to diagnose a problem engine! Gasoline quality in the U.S. is generally so good that fuel concern diagnosis is no longer taught in most technical or trade schools. If you find your problem is the gasoline, and you need to authenticate your problem to seek redress, you can have a 90% distillation test performed at a "Federal Referee Station". These stations certify fuel quality for commercial aviation, as well as automotive fuels. Most A&P mechanics, at local airports, will know where the closest station is located. The last fuel sample I ran cost about $150 (they usually need two 1-quart sealed steel containers of fuel).



leinfam@earthlink.net

[Eric]

Thanks for the detailed explaination! But I still have the same question/issue -- I am not going to have my fuel tested. I'll just assume it is bad. How do I remedy? Is it as simple as draining the carb, using a new tank and going on my way?

Eric

Eric, one of the ugliest problems you'll ever tangle with is "heavy" fuel. This is gasoline with a high 90% distillation curve. This means the fuel requires high latent heat to vaporize. I've seen gasolines with 90% distillation temps above 440 degrees F. This can happen with specially blended fuels, designed for high performance or high continuous load applications. It can also happen when diesel fuel contaminates gasoline at relatively LOW levels (i.e. less than 10%). Lighter gasoline starts high volume vaporization at about 145 degrees, just to put it in perspective.

The symptoms of heavy fuel are black sooty exhaust, plug fouling, and (in 4-strokes) severe crankcase oil contamination. Heavy fuel has nothing to do with octane ratings (on the Salt Flats I actually run "too high" 118 octane fuel in order to get lighter fuel....we are restricted to a selection of gasolines approved by the organizers....they don't bring lower octane, such as 100-108, in light fuels). The excessive octane reduces my cars ability to make maximum power at high rpm, but heavy fuels will not vaporize due to my ice-water intercooler system (turbo engine). Years ago, Honda actually ran a fuel pre-heater to allow the use of heavier fuel (they needed the lowest octane provided at the Salt Flats). This allowed rapid vaporization and fast fuel burn.....needed for very high RPM. Our Salt Flats fuel issue is due to all the old timers running old iron Hemis, Ford Flatheads, Hudsons, etc. which have extremely hot intake ports. They need the heavy stuff to keep from getting into big detonation.....all us guys with small, modern engines are left "hanging" so to speak! We are not permitted to use pump gasoline in any engine....even stock class!

Fuel that is stored for a long time becomes heavier, due to the evaporation of the lighter components such as butane, propane, etc. This is a bigger problem on fuel stored in open vented containers. There's a surprising amount of these "light aromatics" in modern gasoline (light aromatics increase volume of gasoline, with attendant increase in profits!)

2-cycle engines are more sensitive to fuel because the "combustion window" is very short (effective cylinder pressure is lost when the piston is about halfway down the power stroke.....it all goes out the exhaust port). Add the oil mix (which is "really heavy" fuel!) and you can see how the combustion process goes bad. I use excess oil (above the manufacturers recommendation) because it keeps the engine alive.....I just make sure I have fresh 87 octane fuel (no high test).

I hope this helps you understand how customers and mechanics can get boxed into a corner, while trying to diagnose a problem engine! Gasoline quality in the U.S. is generally so good that fuel concern diagnosis is no longer taught in most technical or trade schools. If you find your problem is the gasoline, and you need to authenticate your problem to seek redress, you can have a 90% distillation test performed at a "Federal Referee Station". These stations certify fuel quality for commercial aviation, as well as automotive fuels. Most A&P mechanics, at local airports, will know where the closest station is located. The last fuel sample I ran cost about $150 (they usually need two 1-quart sealed steel containers of fuel).

[JimL]

Just empty most of the tank, refill with fresh fuel, and fire it up. It'll clear the carb pretty quickly. By the way, for anyone who's ever struggled with a fouled plug, here is a trick.

With engine off, pull the sparkplug wire loose from the bad plug. Now feel for contact between the metal clamp (in end of wire) and the top of the plug. Pull the plug back about 1/4" (or a little more) and leave it there. Sometimes you have to put a little electrical tape to keep it there. Now start the engine. What occurs is a very high voltage spark created to jump your very large air gap. When that high voltage goes through the plug, it's too much for the fouling deposits to handle, and the plug sparks over to the ground electrode. I've had to run engines for half an hour, like this, in order to make it back to the dock. Usually, after the engine has run for a while, you can push the wire all the way on and the plug will continue to work while it's still hot.

Why does it work? Because the air outside the plug is not pressurized, and therefore does not have as much resistance as compressed air in the cylinder. That's what lets you make the fat spark.

Remember this trick.....it really works!



leinfam@earthlink.net