Loos gauges and rigging specs

[steve]

After some discussion and help from this board, I've decided to purchase a Loos gauge for my '78 CD25. It seems however, that these gauges only work within a certain set of rigging diameters... My rigging is original, but my manual lacks the specs (seems to be omitted from the '81 manual on this site as well). Could anyone advise regarding the rigging diameters for this boat?
Thanks again,

Steven Marcotte
Man O'War
CD25, Monroe Harbor, Chgo



satirelounge@yahoo.com

[Joel]

Sorry, Steve, I can't answer your question, but have a rigging spec question I'd like to pose to the board.

Last weekend I started to tune my rig using the Loos gauge. This is the first time I tried a scientific approach to tuning.

The Loos recommended tension for the forestay was approx. 15% of the breaking strength of the 3/8" wire used. If I approached even half of that tension, the top of the mast would visibly bend aft. This is due to the fractional rig, in which the forestay is connected significantly below the the masthead. I backed off until I could see the mast straighten up. Was I correct in my approach?

I also felt that the recommended tension for the shrouds was too tight. I set to a lesser tension and used the gauge to make sure it was all even.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Thanks for any input.

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY



bondy_joelNOSPAM@hotmail.com

[Bill Goldsmith]

Steven,

The Loos guage comes with a diameter guage so you'll be able to determine the size wires that are on your boat.

I looked at the various owner's manuals available on this site, and I missed seeing the CD25 listed. However, both the CD26 and the CD25D use 3/16" upper shrouds and stays and 5/32" lower shrouds. My guess is that the 25 uses the same.

There are two size Loos guages in this range. The small one is for several diameters up to and including 3/16". The larger one is for several diameters starting with 3/16". For me, since the 27 has 5/32" lowers and 7/32" uppers and stays, I had to buy both.

I'd suggest getting the small one and then determine whether your uppers and stays are indeed 3/16" with the included diameter guage. If they are you'll be fine with the smaller Loos guage alone--it will work for both 3/16" and 5/32".

Bill Goldsmith
CD27#173
Second Chance

After some discussion and help from this board, I've decided to purchase a Loos gauge for my '78 CD25. It seems however, that these gauges only work within a certain set of rigging diameters... My rigging is original, but my manual lacks the specs (seems to be omitted from the '81 manual on this site as well). Could anyone advise regarding the rigging diameters for this boat?
Thanks again,

Steven Marcotte
Man O'War
CD25, Monroe Harbor, Chgo

goldy@bestweb.net

[Joe Sankey]

Sorry, Steve, I can't answer your question, but have a rigging spec question I'd like to pose to the board.

Last weekend I started to tune my rig using the Loos gauge. This is the first time I tried a scientific approach to tuning.

The Loos recommended tension for the forestay was approx. 15% of the breaking strength of the 3/8" wire used. If I approached even half of that tension, the top of the mast would visibly bend aft. This is due to the fractional rig, in which the forestay is connected significantly below the the masthead. I backed off until I could see the mast straighten up. Was I correct in my approach?

I also felt that the recommended tension for the shrouds was too tight. I set to a lesser tension and used the gauge to make sure it was all even.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Thanks for any input.

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

Joel, I've not used a Loos gauge. However, I doubt your boat has 3/8" wire. Was that a mis-type or did you attempt to use 15% of the breaking strength for 3/8"?
Joe Sankey
CD 30 Slow Dance
Magnolia Springs, AL



sankey@gulftel.com

[Joel]

[Bill Goldsmith]

Joel,

I checked the original specs in the owner's manuals available on this site. All the shrouds and stays are listed as 1/8" for Typhoons.

3/8" wire is WAY TOO BIG for your boat. If that is what is on there, you really need to change it out to 1/8". If you have 1/8" wire, then be sure you've got the right tension--don't accidentally tighten it to 3/8" specs. You could cause serious damage.

Best of luck.

Bill Goldsmith
cd27#173
Second Chance

Sorry, Steve, I can't answer your question, but have a rigging spec question I'd like to pose to the board.

Last weekend I started to tune my rig using the Loos gauge. This is the first time I tried a scientific approach to tuning.

The Loos recommended tension for the forestay was approx. 15% of the breaking strength of the 3/8" wire used. If I approached even half of that tension, the top of the mast would visibly bend aft. This is due to the fractional rig, in which the forestay is connected significantly below the the masthead. I backed off until I could see the mast straighten up. Was I correct in my approach?

I also felt that the recommended tension for the shrouds was too tight. I set to a lesser tension and used the gauge to make sure it was all even.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Thanks for any input.

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

goldy@bestweb.net

[Bill Goldsmith]

And cannot think of any other reasons for the severe mast bend at normal tension. Others, hopefully, will have some insight here! Ya got me stumped!!

Joel,

I checked the original specs in the owner's manuals available on this site. All the shrouds and stays are listed as 1/8" for Typhoons.

3/8" wire is WAY TOO BIG for your boat. If that is what is on there, you really need to change it out to 1/8". If you have 1/8" wire, then be sure you've got the right tension--don't accidentally tighten it to 3/8" specs. You could cause serious damage.

Best of luck.

Bill Goldsmith
cd27#173
Second Chance

Sorry, Steve, I can't answer your question, but have a rigging spec question I'd like to pose to the board.

Last weekend I started to tune my rig using the Loos gauge. This is the first time I tried a scientific approach to tuning.

The Loos recommended tension for the forestay was approx. 15% of the breaking strength of the 3/8" wire used. If I approached even half of that tension, the top of the mast would visibly bend aft. This is due to the fractional rig, in which the forestay is connected significantly below the the masthead. I backed off until I could see the mast straighten up. Was I correct in my approach?

I also felt that the recommended tension for the shrouds was too tight. I set to a lesser tension and used the gauge to make sure it was all even.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Thanks for any input.

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

goldy@bestweb.net

[John D]

After some discussion and help from this board, I've decided to purchase a Loos gauge for my '78 CD25. It seems however, that these gauges only work within a certain set of rigging diameters... My rigging is original, but my manual lacks the specs (seems to be omitted from the '81 manual on this site as well). Could anyone advise regarding the rigging diameters for this boat?
Thanks again,

Steven Marcotte
Man O'War
CD25, Monroe Harbor, Chgo

Steve - Check out www.briantoss.com Brian has great info on rigging and all sorts of stuff.

John
Currently boatless



john_dupras@hotmail.com

[Larry DeMers]

The mast bend is because there is too much tension in one element of the rig, unbalancing it. Even if you did tighten it to 3/8" wire specs, but you did it so that all stays were in balance, the mast would stay straight, but would tend to be pushing itself thru the boat (due to the rigging tension being too high..in this case).

So go back to the beginning now, and start with the 4 point set (fore and aft uppers then port and stbd. uppers). Then when that is satisfactory, complete the reminaing stays. I am not familiar with the Ty that much, so do not know what stay arrangement it carries. If you would like more help, could you toss in a discussion of the stay arrangement please?

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

Sorry, Steve, I can't answer your question, but have a rigging spec question I'd like to pose to the board.

Last weekend I started to tune my rig using the Loos gauge. This is the first time I tried a scientific approach to tuning.

The Loos recommended tension for the forestay was approx. 15% of the breaking strength of the 3/8" wire used. If I approached even half of that tension, the top of the mast would visibly bend aft. This is due to the fractional rig, in which the forestay is connected significantly below the the masthead. I backed off until I could see the mast straighten up. Was I correct in my approach?

I also felt that the recommended tension for the shrouds was too tight. I set to a lesser tension and used the gauge to make sure it was all even.

Does this all sound reasonable?

Thanks for any input.

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

demers@sgi.com

[Joel]

Thanks, Larry.

The forestay attaches to the mast about 4 feet below the masthead. The backstay attaches at the masthead. That's why I believe that too much tension on the stays would bend the top aft. If they both attached at the same spot, that is if it was a masthead rig as opposed to fractional, then I'd agree the balanced tension you describe would not bend the mast.

Is it possible that the shrouds would keep it straight fore and aft somehow? She has two shrouds. The uppers attach at about the same height as the forestay. If I could figure out how to insert a picture into the message (it's not on a web site, so there is no URL), I could show you. It still seems to me that there's an unbalanced pull aft because of the singular height of the backstay.

In an earlier post on this topic, Capt. Stump said that he tunes Hanalei to somewhat less than Loos spec. I guess without actually getting her on the water and sailing her, I was finding the same thing and wonder what the down side is.

Thanks again,

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY



bondy_joelNOSPAM@hotmail.com

[Larry DeMers]

Ok, now I see. I still believe that your rig is overtensioned. Loosen the back stay, a bit. There is no balancing pull from an equal but opposite member on the bow, except for the lower mounted forestay. (one reason I dislike fractional rigs!) So your procedure would be more complicated.
Yes, too much tension anywhere will bend the mast out of column..something that you really do not want to do.
Modify your procedure to include the backstay being tensioned last. Your procedure would concentrate on getting the mast 4-pointed straight and true, using the forestay, back stay (gently tweaked, not inducing any bend, then athwartship alignment via the upper shrouds. Use hand tightening only for now, and then go easy as it is.
The lower stays (you didn't mention them, but I assume you have them too) would take the S-Curves out of the mast. Lastly, revisit your back stay and re-tighten that stay but stopping before mast bend is apparent.
You are still working with balancing the pulls on the mast, making sure that higher winds and sail do not cause an out-of-column condition to occur while under load.
I have not had a fractional rig to tension yet..sounds like a challenge. Seems the backstay would be better going to the 3/4 point of the mast opposite the forestay, but that leaves the top 1/4 of the mast to flop around on it's own it seems.

Anyone else want to speak to this topic of tensioning the fractional rig?

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

Thanks, Larry.

The forestay attaches to the mast about 4 feet below the masthead. The backstay attaches at the masthead. That's why I believe that too much tension on the stays would bend the top aft. If they both attached at the same spot, that is if it was a masthead rig as opposed to fractional, then I'd agree the balanced tension you describe would not bend the mast.

Is it possible that the shrouds would keep it straight fore and aft somehow? She has two shrouds. The uppers attach at about the same height as the forestay. If I could figure out how to insert a picture into the message (it's not on a web site, so there is no URL), I could show you. It still seems to me that there's an unbalanced pull aft because of the singular height of the backstay.

In an earlier post on this topic, Capt. Stump said that he tunes Hanalei to somewhat less than Loos spec. I guess without actually getting her on the water and sailing her, I was finding the same thing and wonder what the down side is.

Thanks again,

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

demers@sgi.com

[huw]

"I have not had a fractional rig to tension yet..sounds like a challenge. Seems the backstay would be better going to the 3/4 point of the mast opposite the forestay, but that leaves the top 1/4 of the mast to flop around on it's own it seems."


If the backstay only went up 3/4 up, wouldn't it interfere with the mainsail? you'd have to sail around with a reef in all the time!

[Bill Bloxham]

Got my Ty up to about 12% on the forestay/backstay (small loos guage)and around 10% on the upper full length stay.
The lower stay was problematic. When I went to 10% on the guage the mast did show a tendancy to bend rearward. When I went to 13% the mast gota lot straighter, but when I sailed the lee lowers did not slack so that I could see the effect. Everything I have read almost everywhere says that the lee shrouds should be loose when the wind is, say, 15 kts. or better. Without that slack I felt the rig was overtensioned.
When I first went looking for a Ty 7 years ago the second boat I saw had a cabin top that had been depressed 4 inches from overtensioning.
When I'm sailing the bay and I get passed by a J24 or it's ilk, I just wave and leave the trim alone.
Ah, reality.
I'd stay at about 10/11% on the uppers and lowers.

Good luck
Bill

The forestay attaches to the mast about 4 feet below the masthead. The backstay attaches at the masthead. That's why I believe that too much tension on the stays would bend the top aft. If they both attached at the same spot, that is if it was a masthead rig as opposed to fractional, then I'd agree the balanced tension you describe would not bend the mast.

Is it possible that the shrouds would keep it straight fore and aft somehow? She has two shrouds. The uppers attach at about the same height as the forestay. If I could figure out how to insert a picture into the message (it's not on a web site, so there is no URL), I could show you. It still seems to me that there's an unbalanced pull aft because of the singular height of the backstay.

In an earlier post on this topic, Capt. Stump said that he tunes Hanalei to somewhat less than Loos spec. I guess without actually getting her on the water and sailing her, I was finding the same thing and wonder what the down side is.

Thanks again,

Joel
s/v Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY

mmmmmmbill@earthlink.net

[Larry DeMers]

Yeah, like what would that top section be for anyway!? heh, sorry, brain-fart of a thought. But it is a damn good question to ask. How *do you* properly tension the backstay on a fractional rig? What is the balancing force for the forestay, the lower shrouds? Or for the backstay for that matter?

Larry DeMers

"I have not had a fractional rig to tension yet..sounds like a challenge. Seems the backstay would be better going to the 3/4 point of the mast opposite the forestay, but that leaves the top 1/4 of the mast to flop around on it's own it seems."


If the backstay only went up 3/4 up, wouldn't it interfere with the mainsail? you'd have to sail around with a reef in all the time!

demers@sgi.com

[michael phillips]

Yeah, like what would that top section be for anyway!? heh, sorry, brain-fart of a thought. But it is a damn good question to ask. How *do you* properly tension the backstay on a fractional rig? What is the balancing force for the forestay, the lower shrouds? Or for the backstay for that matter?

Larry DeMers

Running backstays come to mind... but that would be pain to deal with on a Ty.

-michael
s/v KAYLA
CD28 #318
Bluewater Bay FL



michael@bbsc.com