I attended a sail clinic for one design boats such as Lightnings and J22s this weekend and Greg Fisher was the the instructor. He indicated that if you want to go fast, we need to get rid of weather helm and carry mostly a neutral helm. With a 150 jib on my CD25, it is much more neutral than when just using the working sails. When the wind picks up, I get more weather helm and when I reef the main, I once again get a neutral helm. Greg Fisher's point is that when you have the helm over, it just acting as a drag in the water and will cause the boat to go slower. Was wondering if anyone on the forum might like to share their experiences with weather helm and opinions as to what should be done to control it especially as related to speed in the full keel boat? I had always been under the opinion that a little weather helm or load on the tiller was a good thing but had not considered it too detremental to speed. Spilling a little air out of the main by easing the mainsheet would shift the center of effort forward and reduce helm but might also reduce power.
Thanks for any thoughts.
metreece@duke-energy.com
Weather Helm - Should we try to get rid of it?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ed Haley
Re: Weather Helm - Should we try to get rid of it?
Max:
I'm afraid you have one leg in a racer and the other leg in a cruiser. Tactics for racing are different than for cruising. The most apparent difference is that racers are sailing on the edge and cruisers are more relaxed. Unless Captain Stump be about.
Smaller one-designs, like the Sunfish, Lightnings and other daysailers like to keep their masts vertical as you were instructed. But in doing so, you must also trim the sails so they are balanced (very little weather helm). In boats so equipped, proper tension on the outhaul, halyards, cunningham, backstay as well as proper positioning of the traveler and jibleads will produce a balanced helm. The idea is to keep the sails balanced so that your need to use the rudder to steer is kept at a minimum. Steering is tantamount to braking. As long as your rudder is stays about 2 degrees in either direction of midline, you're OK. More than 4 degrees, then you need to flatten sails more to depower. If that doesn't help as the wind builds, then you have to reef. Whether you reef the main first or the headsail depends on your boat. Try it both ways. The idea is to keep a balanced rig with shortened sail.
Notice I really haven't said too much about angle of heel. This is less important than sail trim. Don't try to obtain a certain angle of heel. Balance the sails. When you achieve more than about 20 degrees of heel, then it's usually time to reef, IF you have done your best trimming and balancing the sails. You will usually go faster along the desired course.
Cruisers (like CD sailers) like to maintain a small amount of weather helm. Under more relaxed conditions, the autopilot is usually on while we're attending to other chores or conversing. If there is a sudden disruption of power to the autohelm, the boat will round up into the wind with no apparent harm than slowing down.
Having said all this, I like to sail with about 10 to 20 degrees of heel depending on the wind, except when I'm racing. For racing, my desired angle of heel shall remain a secret to all, especially Captain Stump. He could use this to his advantage. When the heel increases beyond this, I flatten sail, adjust halyards, traveler, and jibleads. The feel on the helm can tell you a lot. No weather helm past 4 degrees of rudder (except in gusts). When the angle of heel exceeds 20 degrees, I shorten sail and then balance the sails again.
Under no circumstances should you trim for lee helm.
The most important conversation aboard your boat is the one between your boat and you. Listen to and feel her speak. She likes to romp and will tell you when she's happy. She'll also tell you when she's lethargic (not trimmed). When you can communicate with her, then you'll know you've arrived!
Ed Haley
Captain s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
I'm afraid you have one leg in a racer and the other leg in a cruiser. Tactics for racing are different than for cruising. The most apparent difference is that racers are sailing on the edge and cruisers are more relaxed. Unless Captain Stump be about.
Smaller one-designs, like the Sunfish, Lightnings and other daysailers like to keep their masts vertical as you were instructed. But in doing so, you must also trim the sails so they are balanced (very little weather helm). In boats so equipped, proper tension on the outhaul, halyards, cunningham, backstay as well as proper positioning of the traveler and jibleads will produce a balanced helm. The idea is to keep the sails balanced so that your need to use the rudder to steer is kept at a minimum. Steering is tantamount to braking. As long as your rudder is stays about 2 degrees in either direction of midline, you're OK. More than 4 degrees, then you need to flatten sails more to depower. If that doesn't help as the wind builds, then you have to reef. Whether you reef the main first or the headsail depends on your boat. Try it both ways. The idea is to keep a balanced rig with shortened sail.
Notice I really haven't said too much about angle of heel. This is less important than sail trim. Don't try to obtain a certain angle of heel. Balance the sails. When you achieve more than about 20 degrees of heel, then it's usually time to reef, IF you have done your best trimming and balancing the sails. You will usually go faster along the desired course.
Cruisers (like CD sailers) like to maintain a small amount of weather helm. Under more relaxed conditions, the autopilot is usually on while we're attending to other chores or conversing. If there is a sudden disruption of power to the autohelm, the boat will round up into the wind with no apparent harm than slowing down.
Having said all this, I like to sail with about 10 to 20 degrees of heel depending on the wind, except when I'm racing. For racing, my desired angle of heel shall remain a secret to all, especially Captain Stump. He could use this to his advantage. When the heel increases beyond this, I flatten sail, adjust halyards, traveler, and jibleads. The feel on the helm can tell you a lot. No weather helm past 4 degrees of rudder (except in gusts). When the angle of heel exceeds 20 degrees, I shorten sail and then balance the sails again.
Under no circumstances should you trim for lee helm.
The most important conversation aboard your boat is the one between your boat and you. Listen to and feel her speak. She likes to romp and will tell you when she's happy. She'll also tell you when she's lethargic (not trimmed). When you can communicate with her, then you'll know you've arrived!
Ed Haley
Captain s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
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Al Levesque
Re: Weather Helm - Should we try to get rid of it?
My best recollection from many years ago was a race when we were overcanvased with a heavy weather helm and we eased the main to let it luff and gained a full knot in speed. Look at the wake and you will see the turbulence that comes from dragging the rudder at that angle.Max Treece wrote: ......Greg Fisher's point is that when you have the helm over, it just acting as a drag in the water and will cause the boat to go slower. Was wondering if anyone on the forum might like to share their experiences with weather helm ....
albertlevesque@cove.com
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Don Carr
Re: Weather Helm - Should we try to get rid of it?
IMHO...Racer or cruiser you should have no more than about 2-3 degrees
weather helm. The reason is that you should have some so the rudder gives lift but not so much that the rudder acts as the functional equivalent of air brakes on an aircraft.
FWIW
carrds@us.ibm.com
weather helm. The reason is that you should have some so the rudder gives lift but not so much that the rudder acts as the functional equivalent of air brakes on an aircraft.
FWIW
carrds@us.ibm.com
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Eric
Re: Weather Helm - Should we try to get rid of it?
I htink this is good advice. If you really want to explore this kind of sailing, try to keep your helm neutral and steer the boat using the trim of the sails. It's hard in a CD, but not so bad in a smaller boat. ANd a great way to learn about how a boat works/what makes it go fast.
e
w
e
w
Ed Haley wrote: Max:
I'm afraid you have one leg in a racer and the other leg in a cruiser. Tactics for racing are different than for cruising. The most apparent difference is that racers are sailing on the edge and cruisers are more relaxed. Unless Captain Stump be about.
Smaller one-designs, like the Sunfish, Lightnings and other daysailers like to keep their masts vertical as you were instructed. But in doing so, you must also trim the sails so they are balanced (very little weather helm). In boats so equipped, proper tension on the outhaul, halyards, cunningham, backstay as well as proper positioning of the traveler and jibleads will produce a balanced helm. The idea is to keep the sails balanced so that your need to use the rudder to steer is kept at a minimum. Steering is tantamount to braking. As long as your rudder is stays about 2 degrees in either direction of midline, you're OK. More than 4 degrees, then you need to flatten sails more to depower. If that doesn't help as the wind builds, then you have to reef. Whether you reef the main first or the headsail depends on your boat. Try it both ways. The idea is to keep a balanced rig with shortened sail.
Notice I really haven't said too much about angle of heel. This is less important than sail trim. Don't try to obtain a certain angle of heel. Balance the sails. When you achieve more than about 20 degrees of heel, then it's usually time to reef, IF you have done your best trimming and balancing the sails. You will usually go faster along the desired course.
Cruisers (like CD sailers) like to maintain a small amount of weather helm. Under more relaxed conditions, the autopilot is usually on while we're attending to other chores or conversing. If there is a sudden disruption of power to the autohelm, the boat will round up into the wind with no apparent harm than slowing down.
Having said all this, I like to sail with about 10 to 20 degrees of heel depending on the wind, except when I'm racing. For racing, my desired angle of heel shall remain a secret to all, especially Captain Stump. He could use this to his advantage. When the heel increases beyond this, I flatten sail, adjust halyards, traveler, and jibleads. The feel on the helm can tell you a lot. No weather helm past 4 degrees of rudder (except in gusts). When the angle of heel exceeds 20 degrees, I shorten sail and then balance the sails again.
Under no circumstances should you trim for lee helm.
The most important conversation aboard your boat is the one between your boat and you. Listen to and feel her speak. She likes to romp and will tell you when she's happy. She'll also tell you when she's lethargic (not trimmed). When you can communicate with her, then you'll know you've arrived!
Ed Haley
Captain s/v Mokita
CD330 #1
Mystic CT