Out in 20-25 knots plus last weekend; it was interesting, for lack of a better description. I came here trying to figure out what went wrong and found some old posts on when to reef the main but nothing on what to do/not do with the headsails. So my question is...In 25-30 knots I will put a single reef in the main. Do I put up the staysail? The Yankee? Both? What about when I need two reefs in the main? I saw a post recommending that one try different sail combinations in weather but I didn't think that tinkering around on the foredeck would be a good idea given the circumstances. Many thanks in advance.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh - CD30
Houston, TX
jamespadams@yahoo.com
CD30 and weather
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Tom
Re: CD30 and weather
The size and steepness of the waves also affect this decision, but I would say probably in 30 knots of wind you'd want the yankee down and two reefs in the main with the staysail. In 20 knots of wind you'd probably want a single reef in the main and you might or might not be able to fly the yankee depending upon the wave action. Somewhere between 20 and thirty you'll be putting in the second reef and dousing the yankee. This is assuming you're talking about going to weather in reasonable seas. These boats don't like to have the rail buried, and easing up will generally increase your speed and make the ride more comfortable.
Downwind with 30 knot wind I'd have the main down all together and be on some combination of headsails or headsail. The thing about 30 knot winds is that you don't know if they're going to increase or not. If they do, then you're faced with rounding up in 35 or 40 knots winds in order to douse sails. Not fun to crawl out on the foredeck to douse a flailing yankee in 40 knot winds, even if you can get the bow around without broaching or taking a green one over the side. Depending upon the sea conditions you might not even be able to round up as the windage on the bow and the waves can push the bow back down so that you can't easily get into the eye of the wind to douse sails. Generally it's better to shorten sail before you absolutely have to when going downwind. Upwind you can ease the sheets and get the sails in and you're less likely to carry sail too long, but downwind it's much easier to get yourself overpowered and in a predicament before you realize it. And it's much tougher to get yourself out of once you're there.
In my opinion these boats can handle anything less than 20 and reasonable seas with full sail. Anything over 30 you want to be cautious and go to staysail and double reefed main (or head sails only downwind.) So the critical area for decision is between 20 and 30 and that will depend upon sea conditions as well as the experience of your crew and what you're trying to do. With plenty of sea room, no lee shore, and an experienced crew you might carry a little more sail.
Just my opinion. FWIW
TomCambria@mindspring.com
Downwind with 30 knot wind I'd have the main down all together and be on some combination of headsails or headsail. The thing about 30 knot winds is that you don't know if they're going to increase or not. If they do, then you're faced with rounding up in 35 or 40 knots winds in order to douse sails. Not fun to crawl out on the foredeck to douse a flailing yankee in 40 knot winds, even if you can get the bow around without broaching or taking a green one over the side. Depending upon the sea conditions you might not even be able to round up as the windage on the bow and the waves can push the bow back down so that you can't easily get into the eye of the wind to douse sails. Generally it's better to shorten sail before you absolutely have to when going downwind. Upwind you can ease the sheets and get the sails in and you're less likely to carry sail too long, but downwind it's much easier to get yourself overpowered and in a predicament before you realize it. And it's much tougher to get yourself out of once you're there.
In my opinion these boats can handle anything less than 20 and reasonable seas with full sail. Anything over 30 you want to be cautious and go to staysail and double reefed main (or head sails only downwind.) So the critical area for decision is between 20 and 30 and that will depend upon sea conditions as well as the experience of your crew and what you're trying to do. With plenty of sea room, no lee shore, and an experienced crew you might carry a little more sail.
Just my opinion. FWIW
Jim Adams wrote: Out in 20-25 knots plus last weekend; it was interesting, for lack of a better description. I came here trying to figure out what went wrong and found some old posts on when to reef the main but nothing on what to do/not do with the headsails. So my question is...In 25-30 knots I will put a single reef in the main. Do I put up the staysail? The Yankee? Both? What about when I need two reefs in the main? I saw a post recommending that one try different sail combinations in weather but I didn't think that tinkering around on the foredeck would be a good idea given the circumstances. Many thanks in advance.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh - CD30
Houston, TX
TomCambria@mindspring.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD30 and weather
On Lake Superior, the standard sailing conditions most days are 15-25kts, with 3-5 ft.seas int he islands, and 7-9 fters on the open lake. I have sailed these conditions for 35 years now, with the past 12 in our CD30. These *are* the conditions that we go up north for. They *are* the conditions that the CD30 excels at, despite the somewhat conservative note from another responder.
One of the things different between our approach and yours is that we have a roller furled 140% genoa that is capable of good performance reefed up to about 80-90% of the foretriangle. This is the secret that will allow you to adjust your sails smoothly, from the cockpit. We also use our reefing staysail on all points of sail and winds except when on a reach with the wind behind the beam (mainsail will put the staysail in it's shadow or the staysail will put the genoa in it's shadow).
In general, up to 18 kts, we have all sails up and drawing. Above 18 kts, we start to tighten the outhaul on the loose footed main, flattening that sail which stands the boat up somewhat, making her faster and point higher if needed. At 20 kts., we generally reef the main, and use full genoa and staysail, holding 20 degree heel as the indicator of genoa reefing needed. As the wind increases above 20, the genoa is trim-reefed in to balance the boats helm and heel angle. The traveler is moved to the outside position and the main is setup with the upper batten parallel to the boom (again, beating). 25-30 kts, the genoa is pretty much reefed fully (to the 70% point). If ti inceases more than this, then the genoa is rolled in, and the boat sails on reefed main and full staysail. This combo is good for up to 35 kts. where the second reef in the main is needed. At 40 kts., the staysail is reefed and that will balance the double reefed main perfectly. At 50 kts, we have a fully reefed staysail and dbl reefed main, and probably 25 deg heel (windage becomes a factor in heeling at this point). Above 50 kts. and we go to the third main sail reef point. Here, beating and tacking at less than a 120 deg. tack is difficult due to wave height..>10ft., but we have done it! We actually had the old shelf foot-mainsail which had only two reefs then, and found that beating was not fun and was not likely to see us making forward progress very fast..so that is why we went to the third reef and reefeable staysail, so that we could still fly some sail and still be able move into the wind. I have not had experience at winds above 55 kts. (sailing..we have experienced 75 kts at the dock and 55 kts in the anchorage). I think above that level, I would find an island, toss the anchor over and call in sick for the next day!
Get a roller furled genoa made for reefing (ours is a Hild Regulator, 140%, with three weights of sailcloth to handle heavier winds as the sail is reefed -no longer in business I understand. Same people who make Island Nautical Dodgers..good quality and great looking!).
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Sailing Lake Superior ~~Finally aboard for first weekend!~~~
demers@sgi.com
One of the things different between our approach and yours is that we have a roller furled 140% genoa that is capable of good performance reefed up to about 80-90% of the foretriangle. This is the secret that will allow you to adjust your sails smoothly, from the cockpit. We also use our reefing staysail on all points of sail and winds except when on a reach with the wind behind the beam (mainsail will put the staysail in it's shadow or the staysail will put the genoa in it's shadow).
In general, up to 18 kts, we have all sails up and drawing. Above 18 kts, we start to tighten the outhaul on the loose footed main, flattening that sail which stands the boat up somewhat, making her faster and point higher if needed. At 20 kts., we generally reef the main, and use full genoa and staysail, holding 20 degree heel as the indicator of genoa reefing needed. As the wind increases above 20, the genoa is trim-reefed in to balance the boats helm and heel angle. The traveler is moved to the outside position and the main is setup with the upper batten parallel to the boom (again, beating). 25-30 kts, the genoa is pretty much reefed fully (to the 70% point). If ti inceases more than this, then the genoa is rolled in, and the boat sails on reefed main and full staysail. This combo is good for up to 35 kts. where the second reef in the main is needed. At 40 kts., the staysail is reefed and that will balance the double reefed main perfectly. At 50 kts, we have a fully reefed staysail and dbl reefed main, and probably 25 deg heel (windage becomes a factor in heeling at this point). Above 50 kts. and we go to the third main sail reef point. Here, beating and tacking at less than a 120 deg. tack is difficult due to wave height..>10ft., but we have done it! We actually had the old shelf foot-mainsail which had only two reefs then, and found that beating was not fun and was not likely to see us making forward progress very fast..so that is why we went to the third reef and reefeable staysail, so that we could still fly some sail and still be able move into the wind. I have not had experience at winds above 55 kts. (sailing..we have experienced 75 kts at the dock and 55 kts in the anchorage). I think above that level, I would find an island, toss the anchor over and call in sick for the next day!
Get a roller furled genoa made for reefing (ours is a Hild Regulator, 140%, with three weights of sailcloth to handle heavier winds as the sail is reefed -no longer in business I understand. Same people who make Island Nautical Dodgers..good quality and great looking!).
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Sailing Lake Superior ~~Finally aboard for first weekend!~~~
Jim Adams wrote: Out in 20-25 knots plus last weekend; it was interesting, for lack of a better description. I came here trying to figure out what went wrong and found some old posts on when to reef the main but nothing on what to do/not do with the headsails. So my question is...In 25-30 knots I will put a single reef in the main. Do I put up the staysail? The Yankee? Both? What about when I need two reefs in the main? I saw a post recommending that one try different sail combinations in weather but I didn't think that tinkering around on the foredeck would be a good idea given the circumstances. Many thanks in advance.
Jim Adams
Lauren Leigh - CD30
Houston, TX
demers@sgi.com
-
Catherine Monaghan
Re: CD30 and weather
Jim,
Both Tom and Larry have provided excellent advice. Here are a few other suggestions and things to consider.
How old are your sails? One of the most important things that you'll need to be able to accomplish in strong winds is the ability to flatten your sails -- not just the mainsail, but all of them. If your sails are old and baggy you may no longer be able to flatten them. If that's the case, they should be replaced.
As the wind pipes up while sailing upwind, do as Larry suggested and apply more tension to the mainsail outhaul, you may also want to increase tension on the halyard and the boom vang, essentially stetching the sail flat from three points. If your boat has a cunningham, use that too. You also need to adjust the traveller by moving the car more towards the lee side of the boat. Eventually, as the wind increases, the traveller car will end up at the end of the track farthest to leeward. Don't forget to check the position of the genoa/yankee blocks. If they're too far forward on the track, the headsail will be overpowering. You'll need to depower it by moving the blocks farther aft. (Remember this little ditty: Power UP, Power DOWN. To power up the headsail, move the genoa block UP or forward on the track. To power down, move the genoa block DOWN or aft on the track.) The outhaul and halyard for the staysail may also need additional tension if there's too much belly in that sail as well. Does your staysail have a traveller? If so, you'll want to make adjustments there as well. Make sure that the car can travel all the way to the lee side of the traveller. Don't keep it captured at the centerline.
Reef in increments by first reefing the main followed by the headsails.
Don't forget about safefy -- clip yourself to the boat before heading forward. This means setting up the jacklines in advance so they're ready to be used.
Again, the first sail to be reefed should be the main -- one reef, then the second as the wind strengthens. You're still flying both your yankee and staysail. (If you have a genoa, the genoa should then be reefed so that it's about the same size as a yankee.) As the breeze continues to freshen, you'll roll up the yankee or genoa so that you're sailing under a double-reefed mainsail and the staysail is fully deployed. When this setup becomes overpowered, it's time for the third reef in the main. When that becomes overpowered, you reef the staysail. If you're still overpowered, it's time to take the mainsail down altogether and sail with just the reefed staysail OR you might want to stop the boat altogether by heaving to. At this point we're talking about no less than a Force 10 storm and you probably shouldn't be out there.
Hope this helps.
Cathy
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
Both Tom and Larry have provided excellent advice. Here are a few other suggestions and things to consider.
How old are your sails? One of the most important things that you'll need to be able to accomplish in strong winds is the ability to flatten your sails -- not just the mainsail, but all of them. If your sails are old and baggy you may no longer be able to flatten them. If that's the case, they should be replaced.
As the wind pipes up while sailing upwind, do as Larry suggested and apply more tension to the mainsail outhaul, you may also want to increase tension on the halyard and the boom vang, essentially stetching the sail flat from three points. If your boat has a cunningham, use that too. You also need to adjust the traveller by moving the car more towards the lee side of the boat. Eventually, as the wind increases, the traveller car will end up at the end of the track farthest to leeward. Don't forget to check the position of the genoa/yankee blocks. If they're too far forward on the track, the headsail will be overpowering. You'll need to depower it by moving the blocks farther aft. (Remember this little ditty: Power UP, Power DOWN. To power up the headsail, move the genoa block UP or forward on the track. To power down, move the genoa block DOWN or aft on the track.) The outhaul and halyard for the staysail may also need additional tension if there's too much belly in that sail as well. Does your staysail have a traveller? If so, you'll want to make adjustments there as well. Make sure that the car can travel all the way to the lee side of the traveller. Don't keep it captured at the centerline.
Reef in increments by first reefing the main followed by the headsails.
Don't forget about safefy -- clip yourself to the boat before heading forward. This means setting up the jacklines in advance so they're ready to be used.
Again, the first sail to be reefed should be the main -- one reef, then the second as the wind strengthens. You're still flying both your yankee and staysail. (If you have a genoa, the genoa should then be reefed so that it's about the same size as a yankee.) As the breeze continues to freshen, you'll roll up the yankee or genoa so that you're sailing under a double-reefed mainsail and the staysail is fully deployed. When this setup becomes overpowered, it's time for the third reef in the main. When that becomes overpowered, you reef the staysail. If you're still overpowered, it's time to take the mainsail down altogether and sail with just the reefed staysail OR you might want to stop the boat altogether by heaving to. At this point we're talking about no less than a Force 10 storm and you probably shouldn't be out there.
Hope this helps.
Cathy
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
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Stan W.
Re: CD30 and weather
Don't forget that wind force increases exponentially with wind speed. The 20% increase in speed from 25 kts to 30 kts results in something like a 50% increase in force. In other words, what works at 25 kts may not work at 30 kts. Nevertheless, based on my experience in the slightly smaller 28, I would expect that a double reefed main with just the staysail would be about right for such conditions.
smwheatley@capcod.net
smwheatley@capcod.net
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jonathan
Re: CD30 and weather
With my CD31 on San Francisco Bay, I have learned to "reef early and reef often." The CD31's are a little tender, so this may not be completely applicable to your CD30. It blows 20-25 knots all summer after 1:00pm, with days of 25-35.
Here is my reefing sequence.
1) 18 knots: Yankee up, full main, staysail down.
2) 22 knots: Yankee up, reefed main, staysail down.
3) 25 knots: Yankee down, reefed main, staysail up.
4) 30 knots: Double reefed main, staysail.
5) 40 knots: Triple reef main, storm staysail.
I usually skip from full sail directly to step 3 because it's easier. I have roller furling on the yankee and reefing lines to cockpit. I like to sail under control, rather than slam the boat with too much sail.
I have triple reefed with storm staysail once in 16 years.
jerb@plawp.com
Here is my reefing sequence.
1) 18 knots: Yankee up, full main, staysail down.
2) 22 knots: Yankee up, reefed main, staysail down.
3) 25 knots: Yankee down, reefed main, staysail up.
4) 30 knots: Double reefed main, staysail.
5) 40 knots: Triple reef main, storm staysail.
I usually skip from full sail directly to step 3 because it's easier. I have roller furling on the yankee and reefing lines to cockpit. I like to sail under control, rather than slam the boat with too much sail.
I have triple reefed with storm staysail once in 16 years.
jerb@plawp.com