After moving my CD25 and restepping the mast, I'm trying to get the rigging tuned. The mast is leaning close to a foot toward the stern. Is this normal? If not, how much is? I've used up almost all the thread in my bow turnbuckle as is. thanks,
Scott MacCready
CD25 #635
scottMacc@coastalnet.com
How much Rake on a CD25?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Anthony P. Jeske
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
Scott:
The Cape Dory Owner's manual states "the mast is stayed plumb".
If your mast is leaning back nearly a foot something is wrong. On one occasion after raising a mast, I was surprised to find the forestay suddenly shorter than before. Only after tightening all the turnbuckles, did I discover the backstay was wrapped over the wind indicator arm.
You may want to peer at the mast top with binoculars to see if you have a similar problem.
Good Luck,
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Breezy
San Diego
ajeske@ixpres.com
The Cape Dory Owner's manual states "the mast is stayed plumb".
If your mast is leaning back nearly a foot something is wrong. On one occasion after raising a mast, I was surprised to find the forestay suddenly shorter than before. Only after tightening all the turnbuckles, did I discover the backstay was wrapped over the wind indicator arm.
You may want to peer at the mast top with binoculars to see if you have a similar problem.
Good Luck,
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Breezy
San Diego
ajeske@ixpres.com
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Scott MacCready
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
there doesn't seem to be anything hung up anywhere. The forstay is new within the past few months. I'm wondering if it was too long to begin with and I just didn't notice it before. Before I shorten it, I wanted to check here for input.
The stern seems to ride low in the water. I filled the bow holding tank to see if that would help but did only slightly. How do I know when the boat is level or at the correct attitude?
scottmacc@costalnet.com
The stern seems to ride low in the water. I filled the bow holding tank to see if that would help but did only slightly. How do I know when the boat is level or at the correct attitude?
scottmacc@costalnet.com
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Mike Thorpe
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
Scott,
The masts fore and aft position should be adjusted to compensate for weather helm. The further forward the mast is raked the less weather helm. Cape Dory's usually have a lot of weather helm so a mast that leans aft sounds suspect. However, before you cut anything take it out for a sail and see what you have for weather helm. Oh, as far as side to side is concerned the mast should be in column and stay in column when sailing hard to weather on both port and starboard tacks.
Mike Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
mthorpe@capecod.net
The masts fore and aft position should be adjusted to compensate for weather helm. The further forward the mast is raked the less weather helm. Cape Dory's usually have a lot of weather helm so a mast that leans aft sounds suspect. However, before you cut anything take it out for a sail and see what you have for weather helm. Oh, as far as side to side is concerned the mast should be in column and stay in column when sailing hard to weather on both port and starboard tacks.
Mike Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
Scott MacCready wrote: After moving my CD25 and restepping the mast, I'm trying to get the rigging tuned. The mast is leaning close to a foot toward the stern. Is this normal? If not, how much is? I've used up almost all the thread in my bow turnbuckle as is. thanks,
Scott MacCready
CD25 #635
mthorpe@capecod.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Forestay to long.....
Scott,
I would venture that your forestay is to long! A whole foot out of column is a LOT! You said it has recently been replaced, someone measured wrong. The spars on ALL Cape Dorys are to be in column on deck. ie. straight up and down, fore and aft and athwartship. NO lean at all! If you have too much weather helm, it is probably because your sails are blown out, too baggy! Do not try to correct weather helm by raking the mast! Tie off the mast with a temporary forestay, possibly your jib halyard(you will need the main halyard to pull ya up in the bosun's chair), go up there and remove the forestay, take it to a good rigger and have them shorten it. You should not need to unstep the mast to do this....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
I would venture that your forestay is to long! A whole foot out of column is a LOT! You said it has recently been replaced, someone measured wrong. The spars on ALL Cape Dorys are to be in column on deck. ie. straight up and down, fore and aft and athwartship. NO lean at all! If you have too much weather helm, it is probably because your sails are blown out, too baggy! Do not try to correct weather helm by raking the mast! Tie off the mast with a temporary forestay, possibly your jib halyard(you will need the main halyard to pull ya up in the bosun's chair), go up there and remove the forestay, take it to a good rigger and have them shorten it. You should not need to unstep the mast to do this....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
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Will W.
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
Hi Scott
I have been following your adventures with interest. She looks like a fine boat. You really lucked out with the trailer.
Two things about if you may be sitting true or not. One is; who painted the boot stripe? Is it where it should be? This could make your boat appear to be sitting funny if the stripe is not right. The other is; Your motor is hanging off the back. With leverage coming into play, you have changed where the weight of the engine sits by quite a lot I would think.
Is the engine well glassed over? If not, she how she looks with the motor in the well. If the well is open and the motor is too big, then that would probably be the culprit. That much weight hanging off the back end would definately have some affect.
If the engine going in the well is not an option then try to offset that weight with sand bags as far foreward as possible. Also look around at your current weight distribution. Are all your anchors and chain and other heavy stuff in the cockpit lockers? If so try to move some of that foreward and see if that helps.
Good Luck and Happy Sailing
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
willwheatley@starpower.net
I have been following your adventures with interest. She looks like a fine boat. You really lucked out with the trailer.
Two things about if you may be sitting true or not. One is; who painted the boot stripe? Is it where it should be? This could make your boat appear to be sitting funny if the stripe is not right. The other is; Your motor is hanging off the back. With leverage coming into play, you have changed where the weight of the engine sits by quite a lot I would think.
Is the engine well glassed over? If not, she how she looks with the motor in the well. If the well is open and the motor is too big, then that would probably be the culprit. That much weight hanging off the back end would definately have some affect.
If the engine going in the well is not an option then try to offset that weight with sand bags as far foreward as possible. Also look around at your current weight distribution. Are all your anchors and chain and other heavy stuff in the cockpit lockers? If so try to move some of that foreward and see if that helps.
Good Luck and Happy Sailing
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
Scott MacCready wrote: there doesn't seem to be anything hung up anywhere. The forstay is new within the past few months. I'm wondering if it was too long to begin with and I just didn't notice it before. Before I shorten it, I wanted to check here for input.
The stern seems to ride low in the water. I filled the bow holding tank to see if that would help but did only slightly. How do I know when the boat is level or at the correct attitude?
willwheatley@starpower.net
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Joel
Can you do that in a 25?
I've read about hauling oneself aloft in a bosun's chair, but always assumed it would have to be aboard quite a large yacht, otherwise the weight so high would tip her over (or maybe I'm just sensitive about my weight - 200+). Of course, with my Ty, it's easy enough to unstep/step the mast that I've done so at the mooring. At what size CD does this become impractical and using a bosun's chair become practical?
Joel
s/y Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY
bondy_joelNOSPAM@hotmail.com
Joel
s/y Pokey II
'73 Ty #549
Bayside, NY
bondy_joelNOSPAM@hotmail.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: I would think so, but....
Captain Commanding Pokey II,
I would think that you can, first, you will be straight up and down, so heel angle is at a minimum. Second, I wouldn't haul myself up there, that is what crew is for! Have one man on the winch, and one tailing the line as a safety factor. Get up there, drive out the pin, and lower the forestay. Get down on deck! Job done! Some others on CD-25s may chime in, but I think there was a long discussion about this quite a while ago.
But, think about it, if 200 lbs will tip her over on her beam ends, you have a ballast problem! (Well, not YOU, the boat!).
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
I would think that you can, first, you will be straight up and down, so heel angle is at a minimum. Second, I wouldn't haul myself up there, that is what crew is for! Have one man on the winch, and one tailing the line as a safety factor. Get up there, drive out the pin, and lower the forestay. Get down on deck! Job done! Some others on CD-25s may chime in, but I think there was a long discussion about this quite a while ago.
But, think about it, if 200 lbs will tip her over on her beam ends, you have a ballast problem! (Well, not YOU, the boat!).
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
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Anthony P. Jeske
Right on, Dave!
Dave:
I wholeheartedly concur with your statement about correcting weather helm by buying new sails and not trying correct the problem by raking the mast. Too often we Cape Dory owners get lulled into the "it's just a cruising boat, these old sails are O.K." mentality. All kinds of nice things happen to our boats and our sailing performance when we have good sails.
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Breezy
(Who raced his Cape Dory yesterday in San Diego.)
ajesek@ixpres.com
I wholeheartedly concur with your statement about correcting weather helm by buying new sails and not trying correct the problem by raking the mast. Too often we Cape Dory owners get lulled into the "it's just a cruising boat, these old sails are O.K." mentality. All kinds of nice things happen to our boats and our sailing performance when we have good sails.
Tony Jeske
CD-25D #141
Breezy
(Who raced his Cape Dory yesterday in San Diego.)
ajesek@ixpres.com
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Mike Thorpe
Re: Captain Stump Sir, I disagree...
David,
Yes, the forestay is probally too long and a baggy mail will contribute to weather helm however, adjusting mast rake once the sail issue has been addressed is a valid approach. Weather helm is a product of the center of effort (sails)being aft of the center of resistance (hull and keel). Raking the mast forward moves the center of effort forward. To far and you get lee helm, not a good thing. This sir is why there are babystays, backstay adjusters and adjustable mast steps such as I have on Journey's End.
Looking forward to the race where the water is blue,
Captain Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
The True #1
mthorpe@capecod.net
Yes, the forestay is probally too long and a baggy mail will contribute to weather helm however, adjusting mast rake once the sail issue has been addressed is a valid approach. Weather helm is a product of the center of effort (sails)being aft of the center of resistance (hull and keel). Raking the mast forward moves the center of effort forward. To far and you get lee helm, not a good thing. This sir is why there are babystays, backstay adjusters and adjustable mast steps such as I have on Journey's End.
Looking forward to the race where the water is blue,
Captain Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
The True #1
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Scott,
I would venture that your forestay is to long! A whole foot out of column is a LOT! You said it has recently been replaced, someone measured wrong. The spars on ALL Cape Dorys are to be in column on deck. ie. straight up and down, fore and aft and athwartship. NO lean at all! If you have too much weather helm, it is probably because your sails are blown out, too baggy! Do not try to correct weather helm by raking the mast! Tie off the mast with a temporary forestay, possibly your jib halyard(you will need the main halyard to pull ya up in the bosun's chair), go up there and remove the forestay, take it to a good rigger and have them shorten it. You should not need to unstep the mast to do this....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
mthorpe@capecod.net
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scott maccready
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
I have already moved my engine (honda 5hp) back to the well making the needed alterations to keep it running well in there. Now it runs fine even with the hatch closed. As far as other weight, I filled the holding tank in the bow but I do have the lockers pretty full of tools and such. Plus the anchor is back there. Add my weight (182 lbs)and I'm sure I could be out of ballance some but surely these boats were made to handle more than one person in the cockpit? As far as the sails, they are both new. I only just purchased the boat as many of you know and haven't had a chance to sail her yet so don't know about weather helm. I'm just going by how the mast looks. When I weight the Main Halyard and let it hang behind the mast, It rests about 10 inches behind the mast. As I am new to all this, I guess while I'm off this week I'll sail it to where people with more knowledge than I can take a look at her.
Thanks for all the replys, You guys are great here and I'm learning a lot. Scott
scottMacc@coastalnet.com
Thanks for all the replys, You guys are great here and I'm learning a lot. Scott
scottMacc@coastalnet.com
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Will W.
Re: How much Rake on a CD25?
Hi Scott
It sounds like your weight distribution is probably not the problem. Unless you think she is squatting in the water regardless of the mast and halyards. The rigging is probably the answer to the rake issue.
I can tell you that the mast on my 25 is straight up and down when she sits in the water. How long did you make the new forestay? I did an archive search and found and entry by Don Carr stating that his riggers measured 28 feet 7.5 inches from pin to pin. I tried to measure mine with a long tape and came up with a few inches shy of that but the method I used was not perfectly accurate.
Just curious, did you take the mast down, or was it down before you saw her? I ask because if you took the rearstay off but had to do a lot more adjusting putting it on, then that would tell me that the new forestay was too long.
I hope you work it out without too many problems. Care free sailing is in your future I think.
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
willwheatley@starpower.net
It sounds like your weight distribution is probably not the problem. Unless you think she is squatting in the water regardless of the mast and halyards. The rigging is probably the answer to the rake issue.
I can tell you that the mast on my 25 is straight up and down when she sits in the water. How long did you make the new forestay? I did an archive search and found and entry by Don Carr stating that his riggers measured 28 feet 7.5 inches from pin to pin. I tried to measure mine with a long tape and came up with a few inches shy of that but the method I used was not perfectly accurate.
Just curious, did you take the mast down, or was it down before you saw her? I ask because if you took the rearstay off but had to do a lot more adjusting putting it on, then that would tell me that the new forestay was too long.
I hope you work it out without too many problems. Care free sailing is in your future I think.
Will Wheatley
Suzi Q
CD25
scott maccready wrote: I have already moved my engine (honda 5hp) back to the well making the needed alterations to keep it running well in there. Now it runs fine even with the hatch closed. As far as other weight, I filled the holding tank in the bow but I do have the lockers pretty full of tools and such. Plus the anchor is back there. Add my weight (182 lbs)and I'm sure I could be out of ballance some but surely these boats were made to handle more than one person in the cockpit? As far as the sails, they are both new. I only just purchased the boat as many of you know and haven't had a chance to sail her yet so don't know about weather helm. I'm just going by how the mast looks. When I weight the Main Halyard and let it hang behind the mast, It rests about 10 inches behind the mast. As I am new to all this, I guess while I'm off this week I'll sail it to where people with more knowledge than I can take a look at her.
Thanks for all the replys, You guys are great here and I'm learning a lot. Scott
willwheatley@starpower.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: Captain Stump Sir, I disagree...
Mike,
While what you say is technically correct on a boat that is designed to allow the mast to be raked for compensation of weather helm, I don't think it is true of any Cape Dory that sports a deck stepped mast. They are intended to be in column, not raked, which introduces stress into the mast wall structure. The masts strength is derived of being in column all of the time.
Your 36 is keel stepped, and probably has an adjustable mast base, with which to get some adjustment to bring the mast into column and straight amidships. In everything I have read, and in all my talking with Cape Dory riggers and folks at Robinhood Marine, all information I have is that the mast must be in column..that is, the center of gravity for the mast must fall down the near center of the mast section without encountering the mast sides at any station. To picture this, drop a plumb bob down from the truck to the mast base, and imagine that you could see the exact spot where the bob pointed inside the mast base (assumuming a perfectly level boat of course..hey, it's imagination afterall..we can do this). That point should be
in the equidistant center of the outline that the mast base creates. Adjust her fore and aft, and athwartship until she does meet these conditions.
I do not believe that the Cape Dory has too much weatherhelm endemicly, as someone previously stated. Weather helm is more likely to become a problem when fitted with old sails, or from improperly adjusted sails. I have experienced no problem limiting weather helm to one 'spoke-worth' (pat. pending term) on the standard destroyer wheel. This is certainly an acceptable, even desireable amount.
I would seriously revert to an in-column mast Mike, as that is where it's strength lies.
Fair Winds!
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
While what you say is technically correct on a boat that is designed to allow the mast to be raked for compensation of weather helm, I don't think it is true of any Cape Dory that sports a deck stepped mast. They are intended to be in column, not raked, which introduces stress into the mast wall structure. The masts strength is derived of being in column all of the time.
Your 36 is keel stepped, and probably has an adjustable mast base, with which to get some adjustment to bring the mast into column and straight amidships. In everything I have read, and in all my talking with Cape Dory riggers and folks at Robinhood Marine, all information I have is that the mast must be in column..that is, the center of gravity for the mast must fall down the near center of the mast section without encountering the mast sides at any station. To picture this, drop a plumb bob down from the truck to the mast base, and imagine that you could see the exact spot where the bob pointed inside the mast base (assumuming a perfectly level boat of course..hey, it's imagination afterall..we can do this). That point should be
in the equidistant center of the outline that the mast base creates. Adjust her fore and aft, and athwartship until she does meet these conditions.
I do not believe that the Cape Dory has too much weatherhelm endemicly, as someone previously stated. Weather helm is more likely to become a problem when fitted with old sails, or from improperly adjusted sails. I have experienced no problem limiting weather helm to one 'spoke-worth' (pat. pending term) on the standard destroyer wheel. This is certainly an acceptable, even desireable amount.
I would seriously revert to an in-column mast Mike, as that is where it's strength lies.
Fair Winds!
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
Mike Thorpe wrote: David,
Yes, the forestay is probally too long and a baggy mail will contribute to weather helm however, adjusting mast rake once the sail issue has been addressed is a valid approach. Weather helm is a product of the center of effort (sails)being aft of the center of resistance (hull and keel). Raking the mast forward moves the center of effort forward. To far and you get lee helm, not a good thing. This sir is why there are babystays, backstay adjusters and adjustable mast steps such as I have on Journey's End.
Looking forward to the race where the water is blue,
Captain Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
The True #1
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Scott,
I would venture that your forestay is to long! A whole foot out of column is a LOT! You said it has recently been replaced, someone measured wrong. The spars on ALL Cape Dorys are to be in column on deck. ie. straight up and down, fore and aft and athwartship. NO lean at all! If you have too much weather helm, it is probably because your sails are blown out, too baggy! Do not try to correct weather helm by raking the mast! Tie off the mast with a temporary forestay, possibly your jib halyard(you will need the main halyard to pull ya up in the bosun's chair), go up there and remove the forestay, take it to a good rigger and have them shorten it. You should not need to unstep the mast to do this....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
demers@sgi.com
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Mike Thorpe
Re: Captain Stump Sir, I disagree...
Larry,
I think the disagreement lies in the use of the term "in column". I'm not advocating that the mast be bent such that the weighted line you describe is touching the wall at the middle of the mast but only that the truck is oriented forward of the step. In other words the mast does not have to be perpindicular (sp?) to the waterline to be in column. As long as the walls of the mast remain in compression and not in shear everything is OK.
Happy sailing and hope you can join us in Maine this summer,
Mike Thorpe
Journey's End
Hyannis, MA
mthorpe@capecod.net
I think the disagreement lies in the use of the term "in column". I'm not advocating that the mast be bent such that the weighted line you describe is touching the wall at the middle of the mast but only that the truck is oriented forward of the step. In other words the mast does not have to be perpindicular (sp?) to the waterline to be in column. As long as the walls of the mast remain in compression and not in shear everything is OK.
Happy sailing and hope you can join us in Maine this summer,
Mike Thorpe
Journey's End
Hyannis, MA
Larry DeMers wrote: Mike,
While what you say is technically correct on a boat that is designed to allow the mast to be raked for compensation of weather helm, I don't think it is true of any Cape Dory that sports a deck stepped mast. They are intended to be in column, not raked, which introduces stress into the mast wall structure. The masts strength is derived of being in column all of the time.
Your 36 is keel stepped, and probably has an adjustable mast base, with which to get some adjustment to bring the mast into column and straight amidships. In everything I have read, and in all my talking with Cape Dory riggers and folks at Robinhood Marine, all information I have is that the mast must be in column..that is, the center of gravity for the mast must fall down the near center of the mast section without encountering the mast sides at any station. To picture this, drop a plumb bob down from the truck to the mast base, and imagine that you could see the exact spot where the bob pointed inside the mast base (assumuming a perfectly level boat of course..hey, it's imagination afterall..we can do this). That point should be
in the equidistant center of the outline that the mast base creates. Adjust her fore and aft, and athwartship until she does meet these conditions.
I do not believe that the Cape Dory has too much weatherhelm endemicly, as someone previously stated. Weather helm is more likely to become a problem when fitted with old sails, or from improperly adjusted sails. I have experienced no problem limiting weather helm to one 'spoke-worth' (pat. pending term) on the standard destroyer wheel. This is certainly an acceptable, even desireable amount.
I would seriously revert to an in-column mast Mike, as that is where it's strength lies.
Fair Winds!
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake SuperiorMike Thorpe wrote: David,
Yes, the forestay is probally too long and a baggy mail will contribute to weather helm however, adjusting mast rake once the sail issue has been addressed is a valid approach. Weather helm is a product of the center of effort (sails)being aft of the center of resistance (hull and keel). Raking the mast forward moves the center of effort forward. To far and you get lee helm, not a good thing. This sir is why there are babystays, backstay adjusters and adjustable mast steps such as I have on Journey's End.
Looking forward to the race where the water is blue,
Captain Thorpe
CD-36 Journey's End
The True #1
Mike Thorpe wrote:D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Scott,
I would venture that your forestay is to long! A whole foot out of column is a LOT! You said it has recently been replaced, someone measured wrong. The spars on ALL Cape Dorys are to be in column on deck. ie. straight up and down, fore and aft and athwartship. NO lean at all! If you have too much weather helm, it is probably because your sails are blown out, too baggy! Do not try to correct weather helm by raking the mast! Tie off the mast with a temporary forestay, possibly your jib halyard(you will need the main halyard to pull ya up in the bosun's chair), go up there and remove the forestay, take it to a good rigger and have them shorten it. You should not need to unstep the mast to do this....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei
mthorpe@capecod.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: A few points that might be .........
Captain Thorpe,
Captain DeMers has pretty much covered the response, however, if your vessel is equipped with a backstay adjuster, there may be another reason - forestay tension. If you have a large genny, when fully flying in a brisk wind, does it cause the forestay to falloff to le'ward, ie. bag out? Tighten down the backstay a bit and remove the sag, BUT, the mast will remain in column. Actually, this should have been accommplished in initial setup, in other words, if this adjustment is required while underway, the rig was too loose to start with. The mast foot adjustment is only to allow proper set-up in column when initially setting up the rig!. It is NOT an adjustment to REMOVE weather helm. Our vessels are not J-24s that are designed with bendable masts! Heed what Captain DeMers professes.
One question, you mention babystays. Is Journey's End equipped with them? I would venture that they also are designed to keep a longer spar in column, not to adjust any rake to the mast, ie. you are not relying on just forestay and backstay adjustment to hold that stick straight. And if they are too loose, they should be tightened to keep her in column. If all is straight up and down, and your mains'l is not blown out like an old handkerchief she should handle just fine.
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei-30C
Noank, CT
Captain DeMers has pretty much covered the response, however, if your vessel is equipped with a backstay adjuster, there may be another reason - forestay tension. If you have a large genny, when fully flying in a brisk wind, does it cause the forestay to falloff to le'ward, ie. bag out? Tighten down the backstay a bit and remove the sag, BUT, the mast will remain in column. Actually, this should have been accommplished in initial setup, in other words, if this adjustment is required while underway, the rig was too loose to start with. The mast foot adjustment is only to allow proper set-up in column when initially setting up the rig!. It is NOT an adjustment to REMOVE weather helm. Our vessels are not J-24s that are designed with bendable masts! Heed what Captain DeMers professes.
One question, you mention babystays. Is Journey's End equipped with them? I would venture that they also are designed to keep a longer spar in column, not to adjust any rake to the mast, ie. you are not relying on just forestay and backstay adjustment to hold that stick straight. And if they are too loose, they should be tightened to keep her in column. If all is straight up and down, and your mains'l is not blown out like an old handkerchief she should handle just fine.
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei-30C
Noank, CT