Yes, I've read all the old posts subject as above but still have one question for this esteemed board. Some background may be helpful, though. This past weekend I intended to service the seacocks for the first time. I purchased the boat (CD36) last July from one who seemed to have maintenance high on his list of priorities. Not knowing when he last serviced the seacocks, but hoping it was at least yearly, I began the job this weekend by limbering up as some contortion is required to get at the beasts. Alas, no matter how I tried to manuever my arms I could not get two of the seacocks to come apart. Locking nut, retaining nut and plate all came off easily but the tapered plug won't come out of the sleave. So, assuming none of the ideas concerning frozen seacocks from past posts to this board work, my question is is it feasible to remove the entire seacock from the plywood base without tearing up the plywood or hull? Is the seacock normally attached to the plywood with epoxy or 5200? Any other suggestions for removing the tapered plug from the seacock sleeve would be appreciated. Naturally, the offending seacocks are the ones most inaccesible. No amount of contortions will allow hammering the nut end, even with a piece of wood to preclude damaging the threads. I'll try WD-40, diesel, and penetrating oil but what if that doesn't work? Heating the base of the seacock without heating the tapered portion will be tough. Any suggestions will be gratefully appreciated. Thanks in advance for the assistance.
Bob Grabham
CD-36, #140
Hunky Dory
grabhamb@chesterfield.gov
Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump Hanalei
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Captain Grabham,
Do NOT pound on the seacock, and don't even think about removing the valve from the thru hull, you will only cause further problems. OK, so what to do? First, you have removed the lock nut, adjusting nut and the limit plate. Second, get a monkey wrench(common pipe wrench) I use a 10" one. Adjust the monkey wrench to fit over the bronze handle right at the point where the handle attaches to the valve. I.E. the handle "Y" will be inside the jaws. Now, a light tap on the wrench should unstick the valve. If the area is tight, maybe tap it with a 5# sledge hammer(this is a short handled "light" sledge). Remember, do not tap on the threaded part sticking out of the valve, it is easy to bend it! A little penetrating oil and a beer may also help free it up. And, don't cuss out the previous owner, that valve could have frozen in one season. Oh, and use the "Red" grease we talked about in previous posts, it works great and you may only have to do this once every two years.
Dave Stump
Hanalei
Do NOT pound on the seacock, and don't even think about removing the valve from the thru hull, you will only cause further problems. OK, so what to do? First, you have removed the lock nut, adjusting nut and the limit plate. Second, get a monkey wrench(common pipe wrench) I use a 10" one. Adjust the monkey wrench to fit over the bronze handle right at the point where the handle attaches to the valve. I.E. the handle "Y" will be inside the jaws. Now, a light tap on the wrench should unstick the valve. If the area is tight, maybe tap it with a 5# sledge hammer(this is a short handled "light" sledge). Remember, do not tap on the threaded part sticking out of the valve, it is easy to bend it! A little penetrating oil and a beer may also help free it up. And, don't cuss out the previous owner, that valve could have frozen in one season. Oh, and use the "Red" grease we talked about in previous posts, it works great and you may only have to do this once every two years.
Dave Stump
Hanalei
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Ed Haley
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Bob:
Use Captain Stump's method described in the previous post if you have to but if possible, remove the handle first by loosening the hex bolt that holds the bronze handle on the tapered barrel. Then apply the monkey wrench on the flange directly. In this way you will not damage the handle of the seacock (easily bent by the force needed to free up a frozen seacock).
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
Use Captain Stump's method described in the previous post if you have to but if possible, remove the handle first by loosening the hex bolt that holds the bronze handle on the tapered barrel. Then apply the monkey wrench on the flange directly. In this way you will not damage the handle of the seacock (easily bent by the force needed to free up a frozen seacock).
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
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Ken Coit
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Bob,
First, be sure to buy lots of Ben Gay.
Second, be sure to have someone around to hand you tools and call the extrication team if you get stuck.
Third, easiest access to the port cockpit drain seacock on Parfait is through the engine compartment from the pilot berth. I use a dinghy thwart to bridge across the compartment and give me something to lie on. One day I may build a better bridge, but this works at the dock or on the hard.
Third, try Cap'n Stumps method as it seems to be the quickest and he swears by it. I have not had the pleasure, but it bears consideration.
Fourth, if Stump's trick fails, then the usual penetrating fluids ought to be tried. If you are willing to remove hoses, then it is easy to get fluid where it needs to be. I ended up stuffing some kerosene soaked paper towels into one of mine from the outside and leaving them there overnight. That did the trick. In all cases, Parfait's seacocks yeilded to light taps after application of penetrating fluids. I used either Corrosion X or PB Blaster or kerosene. You will want to clean the barrels with kerosene, so it is a good place to start.
Fifth, find a way to reach that port cockpit seacock in a storm. I use a wooden stick lashed to the handle. This also allows me to check that it works without the trip through the engine compartment.
Good luck!
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
PPPPparfait@nc.rr.com
First, be sure to buy lots of Ben Gay.
Second, be sure to have someone around to hand you tools and call the extrication team if you get stuck.
Third, easiest access to the port cockpit drain seacock on Parfait is through the engine compartment from the pilot berth. I use a dinghy thwart to bridge across the compartment and give me something to lie on. One day I may build a better bridge, but this works at the dock or on the hard.
Third, try Cap'n Stumps method as it seems to be the quickest and he swears by it. I have not had the pleasure, but it bears consideration.
Fourth, if Stump's trick fails, then the usual penetrating fluids ought to be tried. If you are willing to remove hoses, then it is easy to get fluid where it needs to be. I ended up stuffing some kerosene soaked paper towels into one of mine from the outside and leaving them there overnight. That did the trick. In all cases, Parfait's seacocks yeilded to light taps after application of penetrating fluids. I used either Corrosion X or PB Blaster or kerosene. You will want to clean the barrels with kerosene, so it is a good place to start.
Fifth, find a way to reach that port cockpit seacock in a storm. I use a wooden stick lashed to the handle. This also allows me to check that it works without the trip through the engine compartment.
Good luck!
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Bob Grabham wrote: Yes, I've read all the old posts subject as above but still have one question for this esteemed board. Some background may be helpful, though. This past weekend I intended to service the seacocks for the first time. I purchased the boat (CD36) last July from one who seemed to have maintenance high on his list of priorities. Not knowing when he last serviced the seacocks, but hoping it was at least yearly, I began the job this weekend by limbering up as some contortion is required to get at the beasts. Alas, no matter how I tried to manuever my arms I could not get two of the seacocks to come apart. Locking nut, retaining nut and plate all came off easily but the tapered plug won't come out of the sleave. So, assuming none of the ideas concerning frozen seacocks from past posts to this board work, my question is is it feasible to remove the entire seacock from the plywood base without tearing up the plywood or hull? Is the seacock normally attached to the plywood with epoxy or 5200? Any other suggestions for removing the tapered plug from the seacock sleeve would be appreciated. Naturally, the offending seacocks are the ones most inaccesible. No amount of contortions will allow hammering the nut end, even with a piece of wood to preclude damaging the threads. I'll try WD-40, diesel, and penetrating oil but what if that doesn't work? Heating the base of the seacock without heating the tapered portion will be tough. Any suggestions will be gratefully appreciated. Thanks in advance for the assistance.
Bob Grabham
CD-36, #140
Hunky Dory
PPPPparfait@nc.rr.com
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Hanalei
Re: Uh, no......
Ed,
The whole point of the monkey wrench is that you do NOT have to remove the handle, and you will not strees the handle. The jaws of the wrench fit over the bronze handle. From the sounds of the question, he doesn't have room to access the roll pin in the handle anyhow....
d. Stump
The whole point of the monkey wrench is that you do NOT have to remove the handle, and you will not strees the handle. The jaws of the wrench fit over the bronze handle. From the sounds of the question, he doesn't have room to access the roll pin in the handle anyhow....
d. Stump
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charlie palumbo
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Bob.............don't panic ...the barrel will disengage. The suggestions you have read in the prior posts appear to be all good ones. I have a 36, and have on occasion encountered the same problem.Bob Grabham wrote: Yes, I've read all the old posts subject as above but still have one question for this esteemed board. Some background may be helpful, though. This past weekend I intended to service the seacocks for the first time. I purchased the boat (CD36) last July from one who seemed to have maintenance high on his list of priorities. Not knowing when he last serviced the seacocks, but hoping it was at least yearly, I began the job this weekend by limbering up as some contortion is required to get at the beasts. Alas, no matter how I tried to manuever my arms I could not get two of the seacocks to come apart. Locking nut, retaining nut and plate all came off easily but the tapered plug won't come out of the sleave. So, assuming none of the ideas concerning frozen seacocks from past posts to this board work, my question is is it feasible to remove the entire seacock from the plywood base without tearing up the plywood or hull? Is the seacock normally attached to the plywood with epoxy or 5200? Any other suggestions for removing the tapered plug from the seacock sleeve would be appreciated. Naturally, the offending seacocks are the ones most inaccesible. No amount of contortions will allow hammering the nut end, even with a piece of wood to preclude damaging the threads. I'll try WD-40, diesel, and penetrating oil but what if that doesn't work? Heating the base of the seacock without heating the tapered portion will be tough. Any suggestions will be gratefully appreciated. Thanks in advance for the assistance.
Bob Grabham
CD-36, #140
Hunky Dory
What works for me is simply this....hold a small stout block of wood a tad shorter than the handle length with one hand, and pound the wood with a rubber mallet with the other hand, as close to the base of the handle as you can(downward seems to work best) Be patient, and give a few substantial blows. It helps if you thoroughly spray the end of the barrel with wd40. I admit it is a little primitive, but it works.
Charlie
jcp1347j@aol.com
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Ed Haley
Re: Uh, no......
Dave,
As always, my humble respects to you. Your assistance and advice is invaluable including in this instance. However, if you position the monkey wrench on the end of the handle, there is a chance (if the open "Y" of the handle is on the inside of the jaws of the monkey wrench) that the open end of the bronze handle will skew the alignment of the hex pin holes and/or put a dogleg in one of the ends of the open ends. This can be avoided by doing as I indicated - remove the handle first. Why add more grief to an already troubling situation?
Been there - done that. Just offering a little tutorial from the college of experience that this board requests.
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
As always, my humble respects to you. Your assistance and advice is invaluable including in this instance. However, if you position the monkey wrench on the end of the handle, there is a chance (if the open "Y" of the handle is on the inside of the jaws of the monkey wrench) that the open end of the bronze handle will skew the alignment of the hex pin holes and/or put a dogleg in one of the ends of the open ends. This can be avoided by doing as I indicated - remove the handle first. Why add more grief to an already troubling situation?
Been there - done that. Just offering a little tutorial from the college of experience that this board requests.
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaleyNOSPAM@twcny.rr.com
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bobm
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
If one could get at the frozen seacock from the outside-say a head thru valve that was frozen-and put kerosene or wd40 on the valve from the outside, and even if it was a far up in the hull-maybe putting a little freeing soluition on a rod or thin stick like a gun cleaning kit-would that help free it up?
bob
merrick@pop.net
bob
merrick@pop.net
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Tim Smale
Try a little heat
I've encountered this myself on several occasions. Once, in an act of desperation while in the water, I heated up the seacock with a hairdryer..but be careful with this approach. Any penetrant oil, kerosene, or other petroleoum based products can catch fire. After a little heat, some careful tapping on the seacock with both nuts in place so you don't ruin the threads should work. I didn't have enough room to place a board on the nuts - I just was careful and it came right out.
Once disassembled, it's a relative easy fix. Last weekend I serviced all seacocks on my CD 36 in a few hours, including lapping them for a better fit, cleaning, and lube.
Good luck -
Tim
Once disassembled, it's a relative easy fix. Last weekend I serviced all seacocks on my CD 36 in a few hours, including lapping them for a better fit, cleaning, and lube.
Good luck -
Tim
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matt cawthorne
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Bob,
You didn't mention which seacocks were the problem. If the one in the port cockpit locker is your complaint then access may be possible. Remove the access panel from the port locker to the engine compartment. Crawl into the engine compartment, face down, feet first through the quarter berth, making a half turn on your way in so that you are sitting facing forward. You can then stick your head and shoulders into the port cockpit locker, reach up and drag yourself into a sitting positon inside the port cockpit locker, facing starboard. With a little bit of wiggling you can even get your legs in there. It is a bummer if you forget a tool. Have someone around who can call in the rescue squad with the jaws of life if you get a cramp. After a while it is not so bad. While rewiring the boat I have been in there at least 10 times this winter. I still have to put in the new water heater, so I'll bet I have another 10 trips to go. Did I mention that with a little squirming you can actually get your upper torso behind the steering quadrant?
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
You didn't mention which seacocks were the problem. If the one in the port cockpit locker is your complaint then access may be possible. Remove the access panel from the port locker to the engine compartment. Crawl into the engine compartment, face down, feet first through the quarter berth, making a half turn on your way in so that you are sitting facing forward. You can then stick your head and shoulders into the port cockpit locker, reach up and drag yourself into a sitting positon inside the port cockpit locker, facing starboard. With a little bit of wiggling you can even get your legs in there. It is a bummer if you forget a tool. Have someone around who can call in the rescue squad with the jaws of life if you get a cramp. After a while it is not so bad. While rewiring the boat I have been in there at least 10 times this winter. I still have to put in the new water heater, so I'll bet I have another 10 trips to go. Did I mention that with a little squirming you can actually get your upper torso behind the steering quadrant?
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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Ken Coit
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Bob,
That would certainly help, especially if the seacock is open.
Ken
PPparfait@nc.rr.com
That would certainly help, especially if the seacock is open.
Ken
bobm wrote: If one could get at the frozen seacock from the outside-say a head thru valve that was frozen-and put kerosene or wd40 on the valve from the outside, and even if it was a far up in the hull-maybe putting a little freeing soluition on a rod or thin stick like a gun cleaning kit-would that help free it up?
bob
PPparfait@nc.rr.com
-
Ken Coit
Re: Frozen Seacocks (Not Again!!)
Matt,
I had to laugh at your description of getting to that port locker seacock. You must weigh more like my dad did than I do. At 6 ft. and 150# max, maybe he could have managed to get his torso behind the steering quadrant, but I'm not going to try unless there is a life threatening situation at sea. I wholeheartedly recommend a helper, a cell phone, and the number of the local rescue squad before heading into those spaces, especially at my 220#.
Enjoy the crawl and keep on sailing,
Ken
PPPparfait@nc.rr.com
I had to laugh at your description of getting to that port locker seacock. You must weigh more like my dad did than I do. At 6 ft. and 150# max, maybe he could have managed to get his torso behind the steering quadrant, but I'm not going to try unless there is a life threatening situation at sea. I wholeheartedly recommend a helper, a cell phone, and the number of the local rescue squad before heading into those spaces, especially at my 220#.
Enjoy the crawl and keep on sailing,
Ken
matt cawthorne wrote: Bob,
You didn't mention which seacocks were the problem. If the one in the port cockpit locker is your complaint then access may be possible. Remove the access panel from the port locker to the engine compartment. Crawl into the engine compartment, face down, feet first through the quarter berth, making a half turn on your way in so that you are sitting facing forward. You can then stick your head and shoulders into the port cockpit locker, reach up and drag yourself into a sitting positon inside the port cockpit locker, facing starboard. With a little bit of wiggling you can even get your legs in there. It is a bummer if you forget a tool. Have someone around who can call in the rescue squad with the jaws of life if you get a cramp. After a while it is not so bad. While rewiring the boat I have been in there at least 10 times this winter. I still have to put in the new water heater, so I'll bet I have another 10 trips to go. Did I mention that with a little squirming you can actually get your upper torso behind the steering quadrant?
Matt
PPPparfait@nc.rr.com
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Warren Kaplan
Re: Frozen Seacocks and Skinny Helpers!
Ken,Ken Coit wrote: Matt,
I had to laugh at your description of getting to that port locker seacock. You must weigh more like my dad did than I do. At 6 ft. and 150# max, maybe he could have managed to get his torso behind the steering quadrant, but I'm not going to try unless there is a life threatening situation at sea. I wholeheartedly recommend a helper, a cell phone, and the number of the local rescue squad before heading into those spaces, especially at my 220#.
Enjoy the crawl and keep on sailing,
Ken
Your comments remind me of last year when I had the stuffing box of my CD27 removed and a PSS installed. I had the yard mechanics do it. I wouldn't dare. I'd still be in traction if I tried! They had to take a look at the "job" first before deciding on doing it. The head mechanic came over to Sine Qua Non with me and we took a look down into "the bowels" of the boat where the stuffing box was. The mechanic was a hefty guy and I commented to him, "How are you gonna' get in there?" He smiled and said, "I'm not gonna' go down there. We have a guy named Carlos who we keep around for just such a purpose. He's about 110 pounds soaking wet and he can squeeze into anything." Well, they yanked out the old stuffing box and scored prop shaft and replaced it with a PSS and new shaft. It was all done inside of a week. They told me that Carlos did the whole thing under their supervision. I felt sort of bad for Carlos, shoe horned into that hole for hours at a time in the hot weather. I found him a few days later and gave him a nice tip!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
Setsail728@aol.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Frozen Seacocks and Skinny Helpers!
Warren and guys,
Last year, a day before we left on our trip, I decided to retighten the new alternator -shouldn't take too long! Hah! It almost resulted in having to pull the engine.
I needed to loosen the tension arm for the alternator, which is only accessible in a combination of work by two people. I stayed in the engine compartment and Jan attacked the problem fromt he port lazarette. She took the socket wrench to undo the nut for the tension arms adjustment along with 4 12inch socket extensions..4!!, and fed the socketed end to me from the lazarette. I used the one hand I had available to guide the socket over the bolt head and hold it there while she then cranked down oon it to loosen it. This worked great, and I successfully tightened the alternator belt this way. AS she withdrew the socket, it shook loose or was knocked loose, and fell into the flywheel on the back of the engine. We could not see it as it fell behind the flywheels webbing that is part of the casting, and lodged against something in there so that I could not hand turn the engine over to dislodge it. Nothing worked. We were leaving int he morning, and I was getting that awful feeling like..this could be bad news for tomorrow!!
Well, after anhours monkeying around, I figured I had one chance left, as the socket kept going down further into the area between the engine and the flywheel. I tried a magnetized wand, which picked the part up weakly (it was stainless steel) and dropped it soon as the full weight of the socket wa applied.
So I went next door, and borrowed the neighbors 9 year old son, who climbed down int o our 'basement' and head first decended to the engine/flywheel area. He could see the part, but could not touch it no matter what he did. I decided to rotate the engine as far as it would go and see if that helped..it did, and he finally picked the part out with two fingers. He worked like 30 minutes under there, and was a bit reluctant at first to do this.
I tell you there is no substitute for a small person aboard ones ship. Maybe we could sort of make them honorary crew, with some small duty during the week, but their *real* job would be to go in the basement to fix or replace things gone south.
As a result of this kids help, we did complete our trip....which is another post, already published.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
demers@sgi.com
Last year, a day before we left on our trip, I decided to retighten the new alternator -shouldn't take too long! Hah! It almost resulted in having to pull the engine.
I needed to loosen the tension arm for the alternator, which is only accessible in a combination of work by two people. I stayed in the engine compartment and Jan attacked the problem fromt he port lazarette. She took the socket wrench to undo the nut for the tension arms adjustment along with 4 12inch socket extensions..4!!, and fed the socketed end to me from the lazarette. I used the one hand I had available to guide the socket over the bolt head and hold it there while she then cranked down oon it to loosen it. This worked great, and I successfully tightened the alternator belt this way. AS she withdrew the socket, it shook loose or was knocked loose, and fell into the flywheel on the back of the engine. We could not see it as it fell behind the flywheels webbing that is part of the casting, and lodged against something in there so that I could not hand turn the engine over to dislodge it. Nothing worked. We were leaving int he morning, and I was getting that awful feeling like..this could be bad news for tomorrow!!
Well, after anhours monkeying around, I figured I had one chance left, as the socket kept going down further into the area between the engine and the flywheel. I tried a magnetized wand, which picked the part up weakly (it was stainless steel) and dropped it soon as the full weight of the socket wa applied.
So I went next door, and borrowed the neighbors 9 year old son, who climbed down int o our 'basement' and head first decended to the engine/flywheel area. He could see the part, but could not touch it no matter what he did. I decided to rotate the engine as far as it would go and see if that helped..it did, and he finally picked the part out with two fingers. He worked like 30 minutes under there, and was a bit reluctant at first to do this.
I tell you there is no substitute for a small person aboard ones ship. Maybe we could sort of make them honorary crew, with some small duty during the week, but their *real* job would be to go in the basement to fix or replace things gone south.
As a result of this kids help, we did complete our trip....which is another post, already published.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30
Warren Kaplan wrote:Ken,Ken Coit wrote: Matt,
I had to laugh at your description of getting to that port locker seacock. You must weigh more like my dad did than I do. At 6 ft. and 150# max, maybe he could have managed to get his torso behind the steering quadrant, but I'm not going to try unless there is a life threatening situation at sea. I wholeheartedly recommend a helper, a cell phone, and the number of the local rescue squad before heading into those spaces, especially at my 220#.
Enjoy the crawl and keep on sailing,
Ken
Your comments remind me of last year when I had the stuffing box of my CD27 removed and a PSS installed. I had the yard mechanics do it. I wouldn't dare. I'd still be in traction if I tried! They had to take a look at the "job" first before deciding on doing it. The head mechanic came over to Sine Qua Non with me and we took a look down into "the bowels" of the boat where the stuffing box was. The mechanic was a hefty guy and I commented to him, "How are you gonna' get in there?" He smiled and said, "I'm not gonna' go down there. We have a guy named Carlos who we keep around for just such a purpose. He's about 110 pounds soaking wet and he can squeeze into anything." Well, they yanked out the old stuffing box and scored prop shaft and replaced it with a PSS and new shaft. It was all done inside of a week. They told me that Carlos did the whole thing under their supervision. I felt sort of bad for Carlos, shoe horned into that hole for hours at a time in the hot weather. I found him a few days later and gave him a nice tip!
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166
demers@sgi.com
-
D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Small person is traditionally....
Larry, Warren and other Captains,
called a Midshipman! Ha, they have a function in life other than to make the bosun's mate angry, after all!!! However, I don't believe in this day and age you could keep one aboard for use only as someone to go fetch a bucket of steam - child labor laws and all that....! !
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
Nautical Traditions Officer
CDSOA Inc.
called a Midshipman! Ha, they have a function in life other than to make the bosun's mate angry, after all!!! However, I don't believe in this day and age you could keep one aboard for use only as someone to go fetch a bucket of steam - child labor laws and all that....! !
D. Stump
s/v Hanalei
Nautical Traditions Officer
CDSOA Inc.