Our 1984 CD 30 was equipped at the factory with a head and holding tank only; no overboard discharge, just pumpout from a deck pipe in the cockpit. Prior to our ownership an overboard discharge from the head was added, and since our purchase I've had difficulty getting it to pump to the holdng tank. If you own one of these vessels with the holding tank in the bilge forward of the engine, I would very much appreciate knowing EXACTLY how and where the hoses are run in a holding tank only configuration, so I can restore ours. Thanks in advance.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
Plumbing (again)
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Ed Haley
Re: Plumbing (again)
Joe:
If you're having problems pumping to the holding tank, it could be one of many problems: scale build-up, pump gaskets, blocked valves, clogged lines. What are some of the things you notice about the pumping process? Maybe we can start from there and eliminate a few possibilities.
Ed Haley
Captain, S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
If you're having problems pumping to the holding tank, it could be one of many problems: scale build-up, pump gaskets, blocked valves, clogged lines. What are some of the things you notice about the pumping process? Maybe we can start from there and eliminate a few possibilities.
Ed Haley
Captain, S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
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Joe Sankey
Re: Plumbing (again)
Ed, I have done a number of things to solve this problem: the head will pump overboard but not to the holding tank. I now believe the installation of the overboard discharge line compromised the holding tank installation. I have replaced the head (we wanted a Raritan anyway), the Y valve, emptied the holding tank, and today made sure the holding tank vent was clear (it wasn't but clearing it didn't help). I made an assumption, which I now think was erroneous, that this installation was made to allow either holding tank or overboard discharge. It is now my opinion that notwithstanding the Y valve, it was never their intent to use the holding tank.
On our previous 28 the effluent went directly to the holding tank, and then we had the ability to pump manually overboard to empty the tank. What I can't remember is the vented loop; was it there or not? This installation goes to a Y valve, then either to the holding tank or to a vented loop and a seacock. I'm currently beginning to believe that the absence of a vented loop in the line from the head to the holding tank is the problem, as all the diagrams I come with show this. When set up to go overboard, it works fine.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
On our previous 28 the effluent went directly to the holding tank, and then we had the ability to pump manually overboard to empty the tank. What I can't remember is the vented loop; was it there or not? This installation goes to a Y valve, then either to the holding tank or to a vented loop and a seacock. I'm currently beginning to believe that the absence of a vented loop in the line from the head to the holding tank is the problem, as all the diagrams I come with show this. When set up to go overboard, it works fine.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
Joe Sankey wrote: Our 1984 CD 30 was equipped at the factory with a head and holding tank only; no overboard discharge, just pumpout from a deck pipe in the cockpit. Prior to our ownership an overboard discharge from the head was added, and since our purchase I've had difficulty getting it to pump to the holdng tank. If you own one of these vessels with the holding tank in the bilge forward of the engine, I would very much appreciate knowing EXACTLY how and where the hoses are run in a holding tank only configuration, so I can restore ours. Thanks in advance.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
-
Ed Haley
Re: Plumbing (again)
Joe:
First of all, on my 1980 CD28 there was both a vented loop (behind the head in the wet locker) and a holding tank vent (run from the holding tank up through the anchor locker and out the starboard side. The vented loop in the wet locker had no exhaust. I had to run a small hose to the bow and splice into the holding tank vent.
On your CD30, it definitely sounds as if your effluent discharge line from the head to the holding tank is plugged, either from sewage, scale or maybe even a block of wood. If the previous owners added the direct discharge line and Y-valve, the hose to the holding tank may have been intentionally plugged to prevent a leaky holding tank from rendering the sailboat an unpleasant place to live. And, of course, to sell it. All possibilities but chances are the line is plugged with scale, especially if you sail on salt water.
Salt water and Uric acid produce a very hard scale on the inside of everything running from the head. If untreated, it can slow the discharge flow or even stop it. Thats why it's recommended to put a few cups of white vinegar into the head monthly and slowly (over a period of several hours) pump it through to the holding tank and throught direct discharge lines. If this scale gets broken in the line and sent downstream, it will gather like chunks of glass to stop the flow. Snakes will not remove the problem. White vinegar and, in extreme situations, a 10% solution of myriatic acid will. It may take several cycles of flushing but eventually scale will dissolve. See the website on Marine Heads by Peggy Hall at(http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/phall.htm)
To find out if the line is full of scale, find a convenient spot and put a large pair of wide-jaw pliers around the hose and squeeze. If there is scale inside, it will sound like crunching potato chips if the line is dry or wet cracking if the line is wet. Then you know scale is the problem. Use the vinegar or Myriatic acid.
I'm not sure how the discharge line is routed on the CD30. Maybe others will join in and lend a hand, so to speak.
Good Luck,
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
First of all, on my 1980 CD28 there was both a vented loop (behind the head in the wet locker) and a holding tank vent (run from the holding tank up through the anchor locker and out the starboard side. The vented loop in the wet locker had no exhaust. I had to run a small hose to the bow and splice into the holding tank vent.
On your CD30, it definitely sounds as if your effluent discharge line from the head to the holding tank is plugged, either from sewage, scale or maybe even a block of wood. If the previous owners added the direct discharge line and Y-valve, the hose to the holding tank may have been intentionally plugged to prevent a leaky holding tank from rendering the sailboat an unpleasant place to live. And, of course, to sell it. All possibilities but chances are the line is plugged with scale, especially if you sail on salt water.
Salt water and Uric acid produce a very hard scale on the inside of everything running from the head. If untreated, it can slow the discharge flow or even stop it. Thats why it's recommended to put a few cups of white vinegar into the head monthly and slowly (over a period of several hours) pump it through to the holding tank and throught direct discharge lines. If this scale gets broken in the line and sent downstream, it will gather like chunks of glass to stop the flow. Snakes will not remove the problem. White vinegar and, in extreme situations, a 10% solution of myriatic acid will. It may take several cycles of flushing but eventually scale will dissolve. See the website on Marine Heads by Peggy Hall at(http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/phall.htm)
To find out if the line is full of scale, find a convenient spot and put a large pair of wide-jaw pliers around the hose and squeeze. If there is scale inside, it will sound like crunching potato chips if the line is dry or wet cracking if the line is wet. Then you know scale is the problem. Use the vinegar or Myriatic acid.
I'm not sure how the discharge line is routed on the CD30. Maybe others will join in and lend a hand, so to speak.
Good Luck,
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
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Joe Sankey
Re: Plumbing (again)
Ed: Thanks. I think you've confirmed my suspicion; I need to reconfigure the vented loop to be in the line to the holding tank.
It may be scale, but the evidence so far suggests little or no use of the holding tank, or of the boat, for that matter. I'll check it for scale, but I understood you to say the vented loop is between the head and the holding tank. That's what they changed on this boat; it isn't. It is only in the line to the overboard discharge thru-hull.
sankey@gufltel.com
It may be scale, but the evidence so far suggests little or no use of the holding tank, or of the boat, for that matter. I'll check it for scale, but I understood you to say the vented loop is between the head and the holding tank. That's what they changed on this boat; it isn't. It is only in the line to the overboard discharge thru-hull.
Ed Haley wrote: Joe:
First of all, on my 1980 CD28 there was both a vented loop (behind the head in the wet locker) and a holding tank vent (run from the holding tank up through the anchor locker and out the starboard side. The vented loop in the wet locker had no exhaust. I had to run a small hose to the bow and splice into the holding tank vent.
On your CD30, it definitely sounds as if your effluent discharge line from the head to the holding tank is plugged, either from sewage, scale or maybe even a block of wood. If the previous owners added the direct discharge line and Y-valve, the hose to the holding tank may have been intentionally plugged to prevent a leaky holding tank from rendering the sailboat an unpleasant place to live. And, of course, to sell it. All possibilities but chances are the line is plugged with scale, especially if you sail on salt water.
Salt water and Uric acid produce a very hard scale on the inside of everything running from the head. If untreated, it can slow the discharge flow or even stop it. Thats why it's recommended to put a few cups of white vinegar into the head monthly and slowly (over a period of several hours) pump it through to the holding tank and throught direct discharge lines. If this scale gets broken in the line and sent downstream, it will gather like chunks of glass to stop the flow. Snakes will not remove the problem. White vinegar and, in extreme situations, a 10% solution of myriatic acid will. It may take several cycles of flushing but eventually scale will dissolve. See the website on Marine Heads by Peggy Hall at(http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/phall.htm)
To find out if the line is full of scale, find a convenient spot and put a large pair of wide-jaw pliers around the hose and squeeze. If there is scale inside, it will sound like crunching potato chips if the line is dry or wet cracking if the line is wet. Then you know scale is the problem. Use the vinegar or Myriatic acid.
I'm not sure how the discharge line is routed on the CD30. Maybe others will join in and lend a hand, so to speak.
Good Luck,
Ed Haley
Captain S/V Mokita
CD330 #1
sankey@gufltel.com
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len
Re: Plumbing (again)
joe
on my CD31 the head originally pumped directly to the holding tank with no vented loop there - there was (and is) a vented loop in the line from the holding tank to the through-hull for overboard discharge (i believe in general vented loops are there to prevent siphoning back in)
on two occasions i have inadvertently plugged my system with small amounts of toilet paper - it plugged itself once at the through hull and once at the Y valve i installed after the head to direct contents either to the holding tank or directly overboard
couldn't your line just be blocked somewhere between the head and the holding tank? - that seems most likely to me
good luck
len
md.frel@nwh.org
on my CD31 the head originally pumped directly to the holding tank with no vented loop there - there was (and is) a vented loop in the line from the holding tank to the through-hull for overboard discharge (i believe in general vented loops are there to prevent siphoning back in)
on two occasions i have inadvertently plugged my system with small amounts of toilet paper - it plugged itself once at the through hull and once at the Y valve i installed after the head to direct contents either to the holding tank or directly overboard
couldn't your line just be blocked somewhere between the head and the holding tank? - that seems most likely to me
good luck
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Joe Sankey
Re: Plumbing (again)
Len: You're probably right, given the straight discharge from the head to the holding tank. I was hoping otherwise, as that run is hard to get to. Were you able to clear it, or did you have to replace the hose?
sankey@gulftel.com
len wrote: joe
on my CD31 the head originally pumped directly to the holding tank with no vented loop there - there was (and is) a vented loop in the line from the holding tank to the through-hull for overboard discharge (i believe in general vented loops are there to prevent siphoning back in)
on two occasions i have inadvertently plugged my system with small amounts of toilet paper - it plugged itself once at the through hull and once at the Y valve i installed after the head to direct contents either to the holding tank or directly overboard
couldn't your line just be blocked somewhere between the head and the holding tank? - that seems most likely to me
good luck
len
sankey@gulftel.com
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D. Stump, CD-30C 1984
Re: CD-30C Plumbing
Captain Sankey,
Hanalei's systems is as follows:
1 1/2" hose from head to holding tank(no vented loop, joker valve prevents back flow. 1 1/2" PVC line through the main cabin.
One cockpit pumpout fitting 1 1/2" hose with no vented loop.
One 1 1/2" pumpout hose to a whale bilge pump, mounted on Port inner face of cockpit fore and aft bulkhead, through a vented loop to thru hull and overboard.
Note, the ONLY vented loop is in the discharge line overboard before it passes through the thru hull fitting. There is NO "Y" valve!
As far as scale goes, I repalced all of Hanaleis' black hose about 2 years ago, there was scale, but only about 1/8 - 1/4" and that after say 17 years of use! If you decide to replace the hose, DO NOT use the white stuff, even though everyone will say it is the stuff to use. It is VERY difficult to work with, very EXPENSIVE and doesn't bend at all easy. Besides the black stuff lasted almost twenty years without too much problem!
My first guess would be that the tank vent line is plugged, or the head pump has a very small broken piece in it. Does the head "push back" at you when you "dry bowl" the switch? Search the site on Grocco head if so, I wrote a lot about it when I had that problem.
Dave Stump
Hanalei
Hanalei's systems is as follows:
1 1/2" hose from head to holding tank(no vented loop, joker valve prevents back flow. 1 1/2" PVC line through the main cabin.
One cockpit pumpout fitting 1 1/2" hose with no vented loop.
One 1 1/2" pumpout hose to a whale bilge pump, mounted on Port inner face of cockpit fore and aft bulkhead, through a vented loop to thru hull and overboard.
Note, the ONLY vented loop is in the discharge line overboard before it passes through the thru hull fitting. There is NO "Y" valve!
As far as scale goes, I repalced all of Hanaleis' black hose about 2 years ago, there was scale, but only about 1/8 - 1/4" and that after say 17 years of use! If you decide to replace the hose, DO NOT use the white stuff, even though everyone will say it is the stuff to use. It is VERY difficult to work with, very EXPENSIVE and doesn't bend at all easy. Besides the black stuff lasted almost twenty years without too much problem!
My first guess would be that the tank vent line is plugged, or the head pump has a very small broken piece in it. Does the head "push back" at you when you "dry bowl" the switch? Search the site on Grocco head if so, I wrote a lot about it when I had that problem.
Dave Stump
Hanalei
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Joe Sankey
Re: CD-30C Plumbing
Dave, thanks. That's exactly the information I needed. On ours we have no overboard discharge from the holding tank, but someone added an overboard discharge from the head via vented loop. I too expected the vent line to be blocked and it was, but I cleared it (or think I did). It was badly crimped prior to meeting the transom vent fitting. I fixed that, but perhaps it is still clogged or has condensation. Anyway, the head is new, so that's not the problem (Raritan). Based on my limited knowledge of the previous owners I think it's entirely possible the holding tank was never used. I'll try to clear the vent one more time. Many thanks.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
D. Stump, CD-30C 1984 wrote: Captain Sankey,
Hanalei's systems is as follows:
1 1/2" hose from head to holding tank(no vented loop, joker valve prevents back flow. 1 1/2" PVC line through the main cabin.
One cockpit pumpout fitting 1 1/2" hose with no vented loop.
One 1 1/2" pumpout hose to a whale bilge pump, mounted on Port inner face of cockpit fore and aft bulkhead, through a vented loop to thru hull and overboard.
Note, the ONLY vented loop is in the discharge line overboard before it passes through the thru hull fitting. There is NO "Y" valve!
As far as scale goes, I repalced all of Hanaleis' black hose about 2 years ago, there was scale, but only about 1/8 - 1/4" and that after say 17 years of use! If you decide to replace the hose, DO NOT use the white stuff, even though everyone will say it is the stuff to use. It is VERY difficult to work with, very EXPENSIVE and doesn't bend at all easy. Besides the black stuff lasted almost twenty years without too much problem!
My first guess would be that the tank vent line is plugged, or the head pump has a very small broken piece in it. Does the head "push back" at you when you "dry bowl" the switch? Search the site on Grocco head if so, I wrote a lot about it when I had that problem.
Dave Stump
Hanalei
sankey@gulftel.com
-
len
Re: Plumbing (again)
joe
i was able to clear my blockages because they were where hose met something, through-hull or y-valve - in the latter case a huge smelly mess went into the bilge and took a lot of rinsing to get clear - i don't think you'll be able to clear a blockage in the hose itself but can you get at one end of the hose and see if an electrical snake will go through?
also, in my set-up i had to install a y-valve downstream from the head so i can chooose overboard or holding tank and i am having trouble imagining a system without that
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i was able to clear my blockages because they were where hose met something, through-hull or y-valve - in the latter case a huge smelly mess went into the bilge and took a lot of rinsing to get clear - i don't think you'll be able to clear a blockage in the hose itself but can you get at one end of the hose and see if an electrical snake will go through?
also, in my set-up i had to install a y-valve downstream from the head so i can chooose overboard or holding tank and i am having trouble imagining a system without that
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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David Brownlee
Re: Plumbing (again)
Do I understand correctly: the previous owner installed a direct overboard discharge from the toilet, upstream of the holding tank? If a Y-valve was installed in the sewage line to direct flow either to the tank or overboard, check that it was installed correctly. If the hoses are connected to the wrong barbs, it might be set up to allow an open line between head and sea and between sea and tank, but not between head and tank.
David Brownlee
CD 31 #1
"Windrush"
Havre de Grace, MD
dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu
David Brownlee
CD 31 #1
"Windrush"
Havre de Grace, MD
dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu
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Joe Sankey
Re: Plumbing (again)
I have replaced the Y valve and took great care to make sure the runs were correctly set up. I guess I'll have to double check the tank vent, and then see what I can learn about the run from the head to the tank. Since that's all that's left of the original and the hardest to deal with, that must be it.
Thanks for your help
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
sankey@gulftel.com
Thanks for your help
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
David Brownlee wrote: Do I understand correctly: the previous owner installed a direct overboard discharge from the toilet, upstream of the holding tank? If a Y-valve was installed in the sewage line to direct flow either to the tank or overboard, check that it was installed correctly. If the hoses are connected to the wrong barbs, it might be set up to allow an open line between head and sea and between sea and tank, but not between head and tank.
David Brownlee
CD 31 #1
"Windrush"
Havre de Grace, MD
sankey@gulftel.com
-
Steve
Re: Plumbing (again)
Dave Stump'Joe Sankey wrote: Our 1984 CD 30 was equipped at the factory with a head and holding tank only; no overboard discharge, just pumpout from a deck pipe in the cockpit. Prior to our ownership an overboard discharge from the head was added, and since our purchase I've had difficulty getting it to pump to the holdng tank. If you own one of these vessels with the holding tank in the bilge forward of the engine, I would very much appreciate knowing EXACTLY how and where the hoses are run in a holding tank only configuration, so I can restore ours. Thanks in advance.
Joe Sankey
Slow Dance
CD 30 #311
I am currently reconfiguring the head on my CD30K, and noted your opinion regarding the "recomended" white hose and black hose. What type of Black hose are you refering to, and where can it be purchased? The current setup in my boat has black hose but I don't know where to find the same type. It looks similar to the hose that is used on the cockpit scuppers.
Any help on this subject is appreciated
Thanks in advance.
Steve
Dark Star
CD30K
S.Lutcha@worldnet.att.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Black Hose...
Captain Commanding Dark Star,
You can get the hose at West or any good chandlery. There is wire reinforced hose and there is wire reinforced "sanitation" hose. I used the sanitation hose, after trying the white stuff and having a B*&%&%^ of a time with it. If you are going to keep your CD for 100 years maybe ya wants to use the white stuff, but at that point white hose will be the last thing I am worried about.
D. Stump, Hanalei
$8.00 a foot! The gaul!!!!!!
You can get the hose at West or any good chandlery. There is wire reinforced hose and there is wire reinforced "sanitation" hose. I used the sanitation hose, after trying the white stuff and having a B*&%&%^ of a time with it. If you are going to keep your CD for 100 years maybe ya wants to use the white stuff, but at that point white hose will be the last thing I am worried about.
D. Stump, Hanalei
$8.00 a foot! The gaul!!!!!!