Gentlemen, the egg is on my face. I was venting about my Nissan 5HP outboard, when in fact, I caused all the problems. You see, I was taking it off the mount, then laying it down under the lazarette to get that extra bit of boat speed (with the hull plug installed). On the Tuesday after I did that (a number of times on the weekend), I took my youngest son for a boat ride. Committing the cardinal sin of sailing, I did not prepare the boat to sail......left the boom and the main in the cabin, with the jib packed in a locker. When the engine quit between a pair of rock jetty ends, with onshore wind and waves pretty bumpy.....well you better believe I set a new record for rigging a boom and hoisting a sail.
Luckily, we were able to sail into an open guest dock and repair the starter cord I had yanked out of the motor when it quit! Bottom line is....I oil fouled the plug by laying the motor on it's back, repeatedly. My fault, and I'm lucky I still have a boat to talk about. With a fresh plug and fresh fuel, the motor runs perfectly.
All of this idiocy the day after surgery to remove a large lump from the back of my neck. Like the sayings goes, "Never suspect ......
leinfam@earthlink.net
Never suspect malice or ineptitude where stupidity will do.
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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M. R. Bober
Consider it a learning experience
If all of the bold skippers who use this page were to post their little "oops", it would be a very long thread indeed. Considering that the major topic of face to face discussions amongst the crews, is the close shave, I'm surprised that this page doesn't have a "True Confessions" section.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
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JimL
Re: Consider it a learning experience
Actually, I really meant to warn about the way to handle the outboard, but I got to rambling. Hope it saves someone else some trouble. One of the keys I learned, is that as the plug starts to go away from oil fouling, the engine needs MORE choke operation during warmup. That seems to be the first hint.
JimL
JimL
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Max Treece
Re: Never suspect malice or ineptitude where stupidity will
Jim, what do you mean my "laying the motor on its back". I pull my Johnson 6hp motor after almost every sail after returning to the dock and lay it in the lazarette on top of the plug. It keeps the muskrats out as they like to shuck fresh water clams there if I don't plug the hole. I always pull of the gas line off the motor and let it run out of gas before pulling it for storage until the next sail. Would depleting all the gas from the motor prevent the fouling that you talk about?
metreece@duke-energy.com
JimL wrote: Gentlemen, the egg is on my face. I was venting about my Nissan 5HP outboard, when in fact, I caused all the problems. You see, I was taking it off the mount, then laying it down under the lazarette to get that extra bit of boat speed (with the hull plug installed). On the Tuesday after I did that (a number of times on the weekend), I took my youngest son for a boat ride. Committing the cardinal sin of sailing, I did not prepare the boat to sail......left the boom and the main in the cabin, with the jib packed in a locker. When the engine quit between a pair of rock jetty ends, with onshore wind and waves pretty bumpy.....well you better believe I set a new record for rigging a boom and hoisting a sail.
Luckily, we were able to sail into an open guest dock and repair the starter cord I had yanked out of the motor when it quit! Bottom line is....I oil fouled the plug by laying the motor on it's back, repeatedly. My fault, and I'm lucky I still have a boat to talk about. With a fresh plug and fresh fuel, the motor runs perfectly.
All of this idiocy the day after surgery to remove a large lump from the back of my neck. Like the sayings goes, "Never suspect ......
metreece@duke-energy.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Consider it a learning experience
Jim,
But the problem is that we do not see the root cause of the fouling yet. Do you run the engine dry before stowing it away? That would be the best place to start if not. Without fuel, the plug has no source of material to get fouled by unless it is a 4 stroke? Then there would be an internal resevoir of oil..but that sure should not leak either, as it is separate from the combustion chamber.
Can you help us out here with understanding where the fouling comes from?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
But the problem is that we do not see the root cause of the fouling yet. Do you run the engine dry before stowing it away? That would be the best place to start if not. Without fuel, the plug has no source of material to get fouled by unless it is a 4 stroke? Then there would be an internal resevoir of oil..but that sure should not leak either, as it is separate from the combustion chamber.
Can you help us out here with understanding where the fouling comes from?
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
JimL wrote: Actually, I really meant to warn about the way to handle the outboard, but I got to rambling. Hope it saves someone else some trouble. One of the keys I learned, is that as the plug starts to go away from oil fouling, the engine needs MORE choke operation during warmup. That seems to be the first hint.
JimL
demers@sgi.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: Consider it a learning experience
Mitch,
You are right SIR! One of my favorite sections of Lattitudes and Attitudes Magazine is a section they call "You think that is dumb?". It proves that we are all very human, and the way we learn is through stumbling forward thru life, bouncing off of each mistake, correcting our paths and carrying on. Hopefully, not repeating that same mistake again.
I could bore you all with some whoppers I have made over time..including breaking an elbow while trying to land our vessel in a bit of wind..tripped on the dock, and fell like a dead mackeral I did. dumb..dumb, but never repeated. heh, musta leaned something from it.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
You are right SIR! One of my favorite sections of Lattitudes and Attitudes Magazine is a section they call "You think that is dumb?". It proves that we are all very human, and the way we learn is through stumbling forward thru life, bouncing off of each mistake, correcting our paths and carrying on. Hopefully, not repeating that same mistake again.
I could bore you all with some whoppers I have made over time..including breaking an elbow while trying to land our vessel in a bit of wind..tripped on the dock, and fell like a dead mackeral I did. dumb..dumb, but never repeated. heh, musta leaned something from it.
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
M. R. Bober wrote: If all of the bold skippers who use this page were to post their little "oops", it would be a very long thread indeed. Considering that the major topic of face to face discussions amongst the crews, is the close shave, I'm surprised that this page doesn't have a "True Confessions" section.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
demers@sgi.com
-
Joe Wysong
Re: Never suspect malice or ineptitude where stupidity will
Mainers have multitudes of sayings. The one I most frequently quote, since it repeatly applies to me is: "There ain't no point in being stupid if you don't show it."JimL wrote: Gentlemen, the egg is on my face. I was venting about my Nissan 5HP outboard, when in fact, I caused all the problems. You see, I was taking it off the mount, then laying it down under the lazarette to get that extra bit of boat speed (with the hull plug installed). On the Tuesday after I did that (a number of times on the weekend), I took my youngest son for a boat ride. Committing the cardinal sin of sailing, I did not prepare the boat to sail......left the boom and the main in the cabin, with the jib packed in a locker. When the engine quit between a pair of rock jetty ends, with onshore wind and waves pretty bumpy.....well you better believe I set a new record for rigging a boom and hoisting a sail.
Luckily, we were able to sail into an open guest dock and repair the starter cord I had yanked out of the motor when it quit! Bottom line is....I oil fouled the plug by laying the motor on it's back, repeatedly. My fault, and I'm lucky I still have a boat to talk about. With a fresh plug and fresh fuel, the motor runs perfectly.
All of this idiocy the day after surgery to remove a large lump from the back of my neck. Like the sayings goes, "Never suspect ......
Joe
tgjournal@gestalt.org
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JimL
Much about plug fouling and a "save your tail" trick!
The oil fouling on my plug probably came mostly from oil in the main bearings and fuel in the carb. On a 2-stroke, the mains are inside the crankcase, with drip feed holes from the transfer port area. Fuel-oil-air mix hits the transfer port walls, separating out the oil and allowing it to feed the oil passages (some twins actually feed through the center main bearing, using it as thrust surface also). When I shut the engine down with the carb full, the fuel-oil mix drained down through the case, into the cylinder via the transfer ports, and puddled in the spark plug (with the plug facing down).
Here is the tricky part, but first let me explain "plug fouling". Plug fouling is actually contamination of the porcelain insulator and the talc ring carrying the insulator (talc ring seal is actually highly compressed talcum powder, in the form of a gasket, used to seal the porcelain to the metal body). When the insulators become contaminated, voltage can pass across them at a lower level (as low as maybe 500-1000 volts) so no spark occurs between the plug electrodes. As your coil builds voltage (electrical pressure) in the wire, the voltage will either jump across poor insulation or have to wait until it is high enough to jump the plug gap (at .040" that takes about 10,000 volts) in a healthy engine.
Healthy engine did he say? Yes, because air is a good insulator and it's even better when compressed. So, a very lean condition with high compression can actually cause a plug to misfire (no spark). When we mix a little fuel in the air, the insulation value of the air goes down. That is the reason a richer mix will keep the old Corvette from coughing back through the carb when you open the throttle. When compression is weak, the spark occurs at lower voltage....and is a smaller spark.
To make a long story short, once a plug is fouled the insulation characteristics are dramatically reduced. Sand blasting or cleaning the plug doesn't really work because the talc seal area cannot be restored. Additionally, the porcelain is carrying carbon contamination at molecular levels that helps conduct.....but....here is a trick!
When a plug is fouled but clean (understand?) the firing voltage can be raised so high (30-40,000 volts) that the contaminated insulator can't handle it all and the voltage makes a spark to the electrode, anyway. How do you do this? Easy.....pull the spark plug wire loose from the end of the plug, then position it carefully with about a 1/8" to 1/4" air gap between the inner wire and the plug terminal. Firing voltage will climb to elevated voltage to jump that gap, which hits the electrode with a bigger spark than the weakened insulation can handle....and, VOILA!....a spark occurs between the electrodes. I've limped many a dirt bike home, using this method. As far as I know, only old OSSA's can be damaged with this technicque (except of course.....gasoline laying around might get lit with the open spark!...which I did once on a snowmobile...but that's another story).
This method can be very helpful on a twin that has fouled it's lower plug. In some cases, the wire can be shoved fully on after a few minutes of operation at elevated voltage, and the trip home completed.
This is a long story, but I hope it's useful for someone.
JimL
leinfam@earthlink.net
Here is the tricky part, but first let me explain "plug fouling". Plug fouling is actually contamination of the porcelain insulator and the talc ring carrying the insulator (talc ring seal is actually highly compressed talcum powder, in the form of a gasket, used to seal the porcelain to the metal body). When the insulators become contaminated, voltage can pass across them at a lower level (as low as maybe 500-1000 volts) so no spark occurs between the plug electrodes. As your coil builds voltage (electrical pressure) in the wire, the voltage will either jump across poor insulation or have to wait until it is high enough to jump the plug gap (at .040" that takes about 10,000 volts) in a healthy engine.
Healthy engine did he say? Yes, because air is a good insulator and it's even better when compressed. So, a very lean condition with high compression can actually cause a plug to misfire (no spark). When we mix a little fuel in the air, the insulation value of the air goes down. That is the reason a richer mix will keep the old Corvette from coughing back through the carb when you open the throttle. When compression is weak, the spark occurs at lower voltage....and is a smaller spark.
To make a long story short, once a plug is fouled the insulation characteristics are dramatically reduced. Sand blasting or cleaning the plug doesn't really work because the talc seal area cannot be restored. Additionally, the porcelain is carrying carbon contamination at molecular levels that helps conduct.....but....here is a trick!
When a plug is fouled but clean (understand?) the firing voltage can be raised so high (30-40,000 volts) that the contaminated insulator can't handle it all and the voltage makes a spark to the electrode, anyway. How do you do this? Easy.....pull the spark plug wire loose from the end of the plug, then position it carefully with about a 1/8" to 1/4" air gap between the inner wire and the plug terminal. Firing voltage will climb to elevated voltage to jump that gap, which hits the electrode with a bigger spark than the weakened insulation can handle....and, VOILA!....a spark occurs between the electrodes. I've limped many a dirt bike home, using this method. As far as I know, only old OSSA's can be damaged with this technicque (except of course.....gasoline laying around might get lit with the open spark!...which I did once on a snowmobile...but that's another story).
This method can be very helpful on a twin that has fouled it's lower plug. In some cases, the wire can be shoved fully on after a few minutes of operation at elevated voltage, and the trip home completed.
This is a long story, but I hope it's useful for someone.
JimL
leinfam@earthlink.net