i have just completed a survey on a cd30 in florida... if i purchase this cd, it will be my first...and i would be appreciative of a a little advice and opinion from other cd owners on some of my concerns about the hull.. i have not been able to see other cd 30's out of the water to make comparisons... No1 .. in the area of the bulkhead to port immediatly aft of the bunk, vertical stress cracks have appeared in the outside gelcoat from the toe rail to below the boot stripe on both sides of the bulkhead and hull joint, , horizontal sress cracks travel aft from from this area for a couple of feet half a dozen of them.. a total of about a foot in height. a pressure of about 30 pounds with my flat hand depresses the hull slightly either side of the bulkhead.. for about a foot ,for and aft.of where the bulkhead joins the hull i see no sign of hull distortion or unusual response from tapping.. inside is very difficult to access.. i suspect a heavy blow but see no evidence of repair... no2.. the heavy bronze fitting at the bottom of the keel supporting the rudder has been glassed in, would any owner be able to enlighten me on whether this fitting has been a corrosion problem area for some over over the years and glassing to support and add strength had been a logical step... the glassing in has produced a considerable downward tapering of the fitting ..going aground ? probably , that would be the first touch point.. no 3... when the rudder turns either way ,the top edge bumps and stops at the hull area immediatly behind the entry point of the rudder post i can see the need obviously of needing to have a rudder stop somewhere in the system but it seemed a rather poor exterior hull design in this small area , i know there is an internal rudder stop... the thought is in my mind that perhaps the rudder had been reglassed and the height increased somewhat...i cannot see that the turning of the rudder should be reduced to stop the rudder and hull from coming together it seems to be minimal the way it is now... does the usual arrangement for a cd 30 have the internal rudder stop in its usual place, preventing the glassed exterior surfaces from touching?... iam just a one fingered typist here ... not very good at fixing typos!! a pleasant day to all and any of your thoghts on my concerns here,would be very welcome
littleredsquirrel@hotmail.com
help please
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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len
Re: help please
john
having pulled my rudder last year, i know about that part of your question - the heavy bronze fitting is the pintle, a bronze shoe that holds a stainless pin, the pin is permanently fixed into the shoe - the pin goes into the gudgeon, a bronze cylinder glassed into the bottom of the rudder - the pintle is held on to the bottom of the keel by 4 bronze pins (or bolts) which pass through one side of the shoe, through the keel, and through the other side of the shoe - the pintle is then glassed over to make that area smooth - there should be a straight line all along the bottom of the keel
the fiberglass over the pintle is not structural at all - i would be worried that the shoe is loose and they tried to fix it by adding fiberglass - let me add that it would be very unusual for the shoe to be loose so perhaps they were just sloppy in fixing some inconsequential fiberglass cracks in that area
a common problem is loosening of the pin in the pintle - if there is any play when you push against the rudder at the bottom, it will get worse until the whole thing is very loose and you have to pull the rudder to fix it
i also agree with you, the rudder should not hit anywhere externally
hope this lengthy reply helps, email me directly if you wish
len
md.frel@nwh.org
having pulled my rudder last year, i know about that part of your question - the heavy bronze fitting is the pintle, a bronze shoe that holds a stainless pin, the pin is permanently fixed into the shoe - the pin goes into the gudgeon, a bronze cylinder glassed into the bottom of the rudder - the pintle is held on to the bottom of the keel by 4 bronze pins (or bolts) which pass through one side of the shoe, through the keel, and through the other side of the shoe - the pintle is then glassed over to make that area smooth - there should be a straight line all along the bottom of the keel
the fiberglass over the pintle is not structural at all - i would be worried that the shoe is loose and they tried to fix it by adding fiberglass - let me add that it would be very unusual for the shoe to be loose so perhaps they were just sloppy in fixing some inconsequential fiberglass cracks in that area
a common problem is loosening of the pin in the pintle - if there is any play when you push against the rudder at the bottom, it will get worse until the whole thing is very loose and you have to pull the rudder to fix it
i also agree with you, the rudder should not hit anywhere externally
hope this lengthy reply helps, email me directly if you wish
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Catherine Monaghan
Re: help please
John,
I don't like the description of those cracks. You should find stress cracks on the deck but not on the hull. It sounds to me like that vessel was involved in a rather hard grounding or improperly stored on jackstands or in a cradle.
The rudder should not touch the hull when the wheel or tiller is turned hard over. There's definitely something wrong there. Sounds like the rudder stops are missing or improperly aligned or broken. Maybe this happened during a hard grounding as well???
As far as the rudder fitting at the bottom aft end of the keel, I don't know what you mean by "downward tapering" but the fitting itself should not be noticable, it should be fair with the rest of the keel and should be in line with the bottom of the keel as well. The bottom edge of the rudder should be slightly above the bottom of the keel and parallel to it. If you go aground, the keel should hit first, not the rudder.
It's beginning to sound more and more like this boat went hard aground, maybe even up on a rock reef or something, while travelling at a fair speed.
I am curious to know what your surveyor had to say about all of this???
Anyway, one of the nice things about Cape Dorys is that they are very heavily built. If you smack into a rock ledge, you should be able to get the boat to port and live to tell the tale. But that doesn't mean that the boat will come away from the experience totally unscathed.
Cathy
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
I don't like the description of those cracks. You should find stress cracks on the deck but not on the hull. It sounds to me like that vessel was involved in a rather hard grounding or improperly stored on jackstands or in a cradle.
The rudder should not touch the hull when the wheel or tiller is turned hard over. There's definitely something wrong there. Sounds like the rudder stops are missing or improperly aligned or broken. Maybe this happened during a hard grounding as well???
As far as the rudder fitting at the bottom aft end of the keel, I don't know what you mean by "downward tapering" but the fitting itself should not be noticable, it should be fair with the rest of the keel and should be in line with the bottom of the keel as well. The bottom edge of the rudder should be slightly above the bottom of the keel and parallel to it. If you go aground, the keel should hit first, not the rudder.
It's beginning to sound more and more like this boat went hard aground, maybe even up on a rock reef or something, while travelling at a fair speed.
I am curious to know what your surveyor had to say about all of this???
Anyway, one of the nice things about Cape Dorys is that they are very heavily built. If you smack into a rock ledge, you should be able to get the boat to port and live to tell the tale. But that doesn't mean that the boat will come away from the experience totally unscathed.
Cathy
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
CD32 Realization, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay
john bunker wrote: i have just completed a survey on a cd30 in florida... if i purchase this cd, it will be my first...and i would be appreciative of a a little advice and opinion from other cd owners on some of my concerns about the hull.. i have not been able to see other cd 30's out of the water to make comparisons... No1 .. in the area of the bulkhead to port immediatly aft of the bunk, vertical stress cracks have appeared in the outside gelcoat from the toe rail to below the boot stripe on both sides of the bulkhead and hull joint, , horizontal sress cracks travel aft from from this area for a couple of feet half a dozen of them.. a total of about a foot in height. a pressure of about 30 pounds with my flat hand depresses the hull slightly either side of the bulkhead.. for about a foot ,for and aft.of where the bulkhead joins the hull i see no sign of hull distortion or unusual response from tapping.. inside is very difficult to access.. i suspect a heavy blow but see no evidence of repair... no2.. the heavy bronze fitting at the bottom of the keel supporting the rudder has been glassed in, would any owner be able to enlighten me on whether this fitting has been a corrosion problem area for some over over the years and glassing to support and add strength had been a logical step... the glassing in has produced a considerable downward tapering of the fitting ..going aground ? probably , that would be the first touch point.. no 3... when the rudder turns either way ,the top edge bumps and stops at the hull area immediatly behind the entry point of the rudder post i can see the need obviously of needing to have a rudder stop somewhere in the system but it seemed a rather poor exterior hull design in this small area , i know there is an internal rudder stop... the thought is in my mind that perhaps the rudder had been reglassed and the height increased somewhat...i cannot see that the turning of the rudder should be reduced to stop the rudder and hull from coming together it seems to be minimal the way it is now... does the usual arrangement for a cd 30 have the internal rudder stop in its usual place, preventing the glassed exterior surfaces from touching?... iam just a one fingered typist here ... not very good at fixing typos!! a pleasant day to all and any of your thoghts on my concerns here,would be very welcome
catherine_monaghanNOSPAM@merck.com
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Stan W.
Re: help please
This boat sounds like damaged goods. I can't even imagine being able to flex the hull of a CD 30 with one's bare hands. I would keep looking.
smwheatley@capecod.net
smwheatley@capecod.net
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Larry DeMers
Re: help please
John,
I agree with Len about the rudder. There should be no contact with the rudder and hull. The stop for the rudder should be provided by the internal stops only. Something happened to the rudder..perhaps it was damaged when the boat was lifted from the water ie; slings placed too far aft and rudder forced upwards into hull, distorting the rudder shaft etc.
As far as the stress cracks on the hull go..I would run away from this one. My 1983 CD30 has none of these, and I have helped perhaps 6 CD30 buyers get their boats and rig them over the past 12 years of my ownership..never ever saw a problem in this area before. 30 lbs of lateral force should not cause the hull to tin can on you ever. The Convex curvature of the hull should prevent that on it's own alone. Something happened to this poor girl, and I would be concerned that what you see is not all there is to the story. It sounds like the bulkhead may have been driven down into the hull by too tight shrouds. Is there a problem with the door going into the head area closing evenly? Looking at the margins around the door, are they exactly equal all the way around? Does the companionway hatch close evenly and smoothly, and do the drop boards go into place with room to spare..evenly and easily? These areas will be effected visibly when the shrouds were tightened too tight for long periods of time, or if there were cases of extreme downward pressures on the mast. (called the bannana boat syndrome)
This boat has obvious problems, so maybe the trick would be to go to the seller of record (he who owns the boat), and tell him that you want to know what happened, so that you can judge the cost of repair and renovation.
The hull stress crazing does concern me most though. That will require a repair of the internal structures which caused the crazing (this is way -way beyond what a too thick gel coat layer would display in the way of crazing, such as is common on deck)...and will be expensive, difficult and probably not without evidence of the repairs forever more.
You should know that there are over 400 of the CD30's out there, and there are probalby 10-15 of them available for purchase at any one time (usually). So don't get hooked into a heartache if this truly is one. You want to spend your days sailing..not repairing and regretting your decisions.
Best of luck -write me if I can be of further help.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 #1 on Lake Superior (by default..any challenges out there?)
demers@sgi.com
I agree with Len about the rudder. There should be no contact with the rudder and hull. The stop for the rudder should be provided by the internal stops only. Something happened to the rudder..perhaps it was damaged when the boat was lifted from the water ie; slings placed too far aft and rudder forced upwards into hull, distorting the rudder shaft etc.
As far as the stress cracks on the hull go..I would run away from this one. My 1983 CD30 has none of these, and I have helped perhaps 6 CD30 buyers get their boats and rig them over the past 12 years of my ownership..never ever saw a problem in this area before. 30 lbs of lateral force should not cause the hull to tin can on you ever. The Convex curvature of the hull should prevent that on it's own alone. Something happened to this poor girl, and I would be concerned that what you see is not all there is to the story. It sounds like the bulkhead may have been driven down into the hull by too tight shrouds. Is there a problem with the door going into the head area closing evenly? Looking at the margins around the door, are they exactly equal all the way around? Does the companionway hatch close evenly and smoothly, and do the drop boards go into place with room to spare..evenly and easily? These areas will be effected visibly when the shrouds were tightened too tight for long periods of time, or if there were cases of extreme downward pressures on the mast. (called the bannana boat syndrome)
This boat has obvious problems, so maybe the trick would be to go to the seller of record (he who owns the boat), and tell him that you want to know what happened, so that you can judge the cost of repair and renovation.
The hull stress crazing does concern me most though. That will require a repair of the internal structures which caused the crazing (this is way -way beyond what a too thick gel coat layer would display in the way of crazing, such as is common on deck)...and will be expensive, difficult and probably not without evidence of the repairs forever more.
You should know that there are over 400 of the CD30's out there, and there are probalby 10-15 of them available for purchase at any one time (usually). So don't get hooked into a heartache if this truly is one. You want to spend your days sailing..not repairing and regretting your decisions.
Best of luck -write me if I can be of further help.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30 #1 on Lake Superior (by default..any challenges out there?)
john bunker wrote: i have just completed a survey on a cd30 in florida... if i purchase this cd, it will be my first...and i would be appreciative of a a little advice and opinion from other cd owners on some of my concerns about the hull.. i have not been able to see other cd 30's out of the water to make comparisons... No1 .. in the area of the bulkhead to port immediatly aft of the bunk, vertical stress cracks have appeared in the outside gelcoat from the toe rail to below the boot stripe on both sides of the bulkhead and hull joint, , horizontal sress cracks travel aft from from this area for a couple of feet half a dozen of them.. a total of about a foot in height. a pressure of about 30 pounds with my flat hand depresses the hull slightly either side of the bulkhead.. for about a foot ,for and aft.of where the bulkhead joins the hull i see no sign of hull distortion or unusual response from tapping.. inside is very difficult to access.. i suspect a heavy blow but see no evidence of repair... no2.. the heavy bronze fitting at the bottom of the keel supporting the rudder has been glassed in, would any owner be able to enlighten me on whether this fitting has been a corrosion problem area for some over over the years and glassing to support and add strength had been a logical step... the glassing in has produced a considerable downward tapering of the fitting ..going aground ? probably , that would be the first touch point.. no 3... when the rudder turns either way ,the top edge bumps and stops at the hull area immediatly behind the entry point of the rudder post i can see the need obviously of needing to have a rudder stop somewhere in the system but it seemed a rather poor exterior hull design in this small area , i know there is an internal rudder stop... the thought is in my mind that perhaps the rudder had been reglassed and the height increased somewhat...i cannot see that the turning of the rudder should be reduced to stop the rudder and hull from coming together it seems to be minimal the way it is now... does the usual arrangement for a cd 30 have the internal rudder stop in its usual place, preventing the glassed exterior surfaces from touching?... iam just a one fingered typist here ... not very good at fixing typos!! a pleasant day to all and any of your thoghts on my concerns here,would be very welcome
demers@sgi.com
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Ken Coit
Re: help please
John,
It sounds to me that this damage is from something more than a hard grounding. If the keel is in good shape and the rudder has been lifted, then I'd bet on it having been dropped out of a sling from a pretty good height. Or, someone let it sit with a block under the rudder and nothing under the middle of the boat for a long time.
In either case, the boat has structural damage, not merely cosmetics. Please tell us what boat this is so we can all be wary.
Keep on looking,
Ken Coit
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
par(deletethis)fait@nc.rr.com
It sounds to me that this damage is from something more than a hard grounding. If the keel is in good shape and the rudder has been lifted, then I'd bet on it having been dropped out of a sling from a pretty good height. Or, someone let it sit with a block under the rudder and nothing under the middle of the boat for a long time.
In either case, the boat has structural damage, not merely cosmetics. Please tell us what boat this is so we can all be wary.
Keep on looking,
Ken Coit
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
john bunker wrote: i have just completed a survey on a cd30 in florida... if i purchase this cd, it will be my first...and i would be appreciative of a a little advice and opinion from other cd owners on some of my concerns about the hull.. i have not been able to see other cd 30's out of the water to make comparisons... No1 .. in the area of the bulkhead to port immediatly aft of the bunk, vertical stress cracks have appeared in the outside gelcoat from the toe rail to below the boot stripe on both sides of the bulkhead and hull joint, , horizontal sress cracks travel aft from from this area for a couple of feet half a dozen of them.. a total of about a foot in height. a pressure of about 30 pounds with my flat hand depresses the hull slightly either side of the bulkhead.. for about a foot ,for and aft.of where the bulkhead joins the hull i see no sign of hull distortion or unusual response from tapping.. inside is very difficult to access.. i suspect a heavy blow but see no evidence of repair... no2.. the heavy bronze fitting at the bottom of the keel supporting the rudder has been glassed in, would any owner be able to enlighten me on whether this fitting has been a corrosion problem area for some over over the years and glassing to support and add strength had been a logical step... the glassing in has produced a considerable downward tapering of the fitting ..going aground ? probably , that would be the first touch point.. no 3... when the rudder turns either way ,the top edge bumps and stops at the hull area immediatly behind the entry point of the rudder post i can see the need obviously of needing to have a rudder stop somewhere in the system but it seemed a rather poor exterior hull design in this small area , i know there is an internal rudder stop... the thought is in my mind that perhaps the rudder had been reglassed and the height increased somewhat...i cannot see that the turning of the rudder should be reduced to stop the rudder and hull from coming together it seems to be minimal the way it is now... does the usual arrangement for a cd 30 have the internal rudder stop in its usual place, preventing the glassed exterior surfaces from touching?... iam just a one fingered typist here ... not very good at fixing typos!! a pleasant day to all and any of your thoghts on my concerns here,would be very welcome
par(deletethis)fait@nc.rr.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Mark what they say, and ......RUN...
Captain Bunker,
If this were the ONLY CD-30 left in the world, she might be worth the headaches you are looking at. I would listen closely to what the others have said and RUN, don't walk, away from this one!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1
If this were the ONLY CD-30 left in the world, she might be worth the headaches you are looking at. I would listen closely to what the others have said and RUN, don't walk, away from this one!
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1