Hi,
I am putting an auto pilot in this winter. I received two bids. One is for the Raymarine ST4000 wheel pilot. The other is the Raymarine 6000 which is a below decks mounted system. I know the below decks one is better, but it is also about $5500.00 while the wheel pilot is $1700.00. My question is does anyone have a critique of the wheel pilot? It is rated to handle a boat of 18700 lbs displacement.
Thanks,
Rich
Inerarity CD 36
richard.formica@yale.edu
Auto Pilot for CD36
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: ST 4000+ Auto Pilot ....
Captain Formica,
I installed a 4000+ onboard Hanalei 2 years ago. It is not a difficult installation, if you pay attention to details. I removed the helm guard and took it home to be drilled on the drill press to assure accuracy of hole location(be sure to place rubber grommets at any point where cable goes through metal, I've seen cables wrapped with E-tape by others, sloppy!). Drilling through the foot of the guard, thru the deck and thru the athwart ship "I" beam that holds the steering sheaves was exciting, but easily accomplished if ya takes ya time. Running cable was likewise fairly easy, I placed the flux gate compass under the starboard cabin settee, and as low down as possible. You want it at the center of gravity of the vessel or as close to it as you can get and still keep it dry from bilge water!
Now, how does it perform. Much better than the older AutoHelm with the drive belt and pedestal mount of the motor. No cables trailing all over the cockpit, the entire drive assembly is easily removable with the wheel. Actually, Hanalei's is sitting in the basement as we speak. The unit stears very well under motor sail, it will not react fast enough for a straight course down wind, jibes are frequent! Working to weather, it works better, but at times will steer like a drunken sailor, probably my fault for not tinkering with the adjustments as much as I should. Overall, I am pleased with it, and for about $900.00 on sale it was relatively inexpensive. The 6000? well, as you say, it is VERY expensive in comparison and will work NO better than the 4000. Of course it is rated for a heavier vessel, and I wonder, are you not approaching the limit for the 4000+ weight wise?
You can install it in two days, if ya take the guard home to be drilled. What was the installation bid for the 4000+?
Dave Stump
Hanalei
I installed a 4000+ onboard Hanalei 2 years ago. It is not a difficult installation, if you pay attention to details. I removed the helm guard and took it home to be drilled on the drill press to assure accuracy of hole location(be sure to place rubber grommets at any point where cable goes through metal, I've seen cables wrapped with E-tape by others, sloppy!). Drilling through the foot of the guard, thru the deck and thru the athwart ship "I" beam that holds the steering sheaves was exciting, but easily accomplished if ya takes ya time. Running cable was likewise fairly easy, I placed the flux gate compass under the starboard cabin settee, and as low down as possible. You want it at the center of gravity of the vessel or as close to it as you can get and still keep it dry from bilge water!
Now, how does it perform. Much better than the older AutoHelm with the drive belt and pedestal mount of the motor. No cables trailing all over the cockpit, the entire drive assembly is easily removable with the wheel. Actually, Hanalei's is sitting in the basement as we speak. The unit stears very well under motor sail, it will not react fast enough for a straight course down wind, jibes are frequent! Working to weather, it works better, but at times will steer like a drunken sailor, probably my fault for not tinkering with the adjustments as much as I should. Overall, I am pleased with it, and for about $900.00 on sale it was relatively inexpensive. The 6000? well, as you say, it is VERY expensive in comparison and will work NO better than the 4000. Of course it is rated for a heavier vessel, and I wonder, are you not approaching the limit for the 4000+ weight wise?
You can install it in two days, if ya take the guard home to be drilled. What was the installation bid for the 4000+?
Dave Stump
Hanalei
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Al Smith
Re: ST 4000+ Auto Pilot ....
We had a 4000+ installed on our CD33 and have not been happy with it compared to the Cetek s and Robertsons, albeit they are much higher priced. Our control panel has been replaced twice, the compass once, and even the dealer cannot seem to get it adjusted. We have the compass on the midline and it should track well, but it is a source of frustration much of the time.D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Captain Formica,
I installed a 4000+ onboard Hanalei 2 years ago. It is not a difficult installation, if you pay attention to details. I removed the helm guard and took it home to be drilled on the drill press to assure accuracy of hole location(be sure to place rubber grommets at any point where cable goes through metal, I've seen cables wrapped with E-tape by others, sloppy!). Drilling through the foot of the guard, thru the deck and thru the athwart ship "I" beam that holds the steering sheaves was exciting, but easily accomplished if ya takes ya time. Running cable was likewise fairly easy, I placed the flux gate compass under the starboard cabin settee, and as low down as possible. You want it at the center of gravity of the vessel or as close to it as you can get and still keep it dry from bilge water!
Now, how does it perform. Much better than the older AutoHelm with the drive belt and pedestal mount of the motor. No cables trailing all over the cockpit, the entire drive assembly is easily removable with the wheel. Actually, Hanalei's is sitting in the basement as we speak. The unit stears very well under motor sail, it will not react fast enough for a straight course down wind, jibes are frequent! Working to weather, it works better, but at times will steer like a drunken sailor, probably my fault for not tinkering with the adjustments as much as I should. Overall, I am pleased with it, and for about $900.00 on sale it was relatively inexpensive. The 6000? well, as you say, it is VERY expensive in comparison and will work NO better than the 4000. Of course it is rated for a heavier vessel, and I wonder, are you not approaching the limit for the 4000+ weight wise?
You can install it in two days, if ya take the guard home to be drilled. What was the installation bid for the 4000+?
Dave Stump
Hanalei
Motoring, it will keep a course within 15 degrees, but will occasionally wander farther from that. Sailing downwind is a challenge, but if balanced correctly it will handle light winds to 10 knots. Upwind is better, but your balance has to be right on. It is best to depower the main to eliminate as much weather helm as possible, and then it can be trusted more.
Would I buy another? I've had 3 3000's and their belt is such a hassle. But, they did steer better, dispite what the company says. I sail on the Chesapeake Bay so I wouldn't go any more expensive, but do know someone with a CD33 cutter who loves his 6000. He does a lot of offshore work.Ther is another company, Simrad, I believe, that has a new pilot which fits on the wheel. It looks a little funky (a very nautical term) but Simrad is a good company too. If you are planning a long trip with a lot of offshore work, look at the others. If not, it will work with great attention to balance.
saylr@adelphia.net
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Jerry Axler
Re: Auto Pilot for CD36
I have a 4000+ when I replaced an Autohelm belt driven model that went kaput after many years of excellent service. I use it primarily for motoring and it wanders on either side of 10 degrees as when sailing, but that has no effect on the eventual destination. However when sailing, the constant wandering has a real affect on speed because of the change in angle of attack. I can sail the boat by hand about 1-2 knots faster than the autopilot when at hull speed. I bought cheap and I got a cheap performer.Richard Formica wrote: Hi,
I am putting an auto pilot in this winter. I received two bids. One is for the Raymarine ST4000 wheel pilot. The other is the Raymarine 6000 which is a below decks mounted system. I know the below decks one is better, but it is also about $5500.00 while the wheel pilot is $1700.00. My question is does anyone have a critique of the wheel pilot? It is rated to handle a boat of 18700 lbs displacement.
Thanks,
Rich
Inerarity CD 36
Jerry Axler
Shana 36CD
cutter36@erols.com
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Patrick Turner
Re: Auto Pilot for CD36
Richard,
I own a CD36 and have a CPT wheel mounted autopilot. It is now being distributed by ScanMar. They were (and maybe still are) favored by offshore sailors who wanted a wheel pilot. It is much more rugged and powerful then the others on the market, but at a price.... it is also very basic. By todays standards it is caveman techonology. It consists of a very strong motor mounted lower on the pedestal that drives a wheel mounted to your steering wheel. Kinda like the old autohelm 3000. The belt and wheel have very deep grooves, much deeper then any other out there.....less opportunity for slipping.There is an additonal small box that houses the "optical" compass that drives the motor (that 's the caveman part). You make course adjustments on this box. There are none of the fancy things that other wheel pilots have, like steering to a waypoint, or bearing, or auto-tacking....you have to do all that. It is, I believe stonger and faster then all other wheel pilots out there and built to withstand the marine enviornment, but as I said...currently at a price -it's stupid. Sanmar is in the process of trying to bring the control mechanism up to newer technology and then I think it would be the wheel pilot to have.. You might check with them and see where they are on that. Next in line would be the model offered by Simrad....WP30 or something like that. I did alot of comparisons when I went shopping and the Simrad model was the secound fastest (hardover-to-hardover) and stongest (torque) wheel pilot. It is a little funky looking as mentioned before, but so is the CPT - it's a real piece of hardware
Having said all that.....would I buy another wheel pilot? I dunno. It depends on if your are going to rely entirely on the autopilot as your only scource of automatic steering.....in other words if you don't have a windvane. A good windvane steers much more acurately and quickly then an autopilot, but it only steers relative to the wind so there still needs to be some participation on the part of the sailor. "The stronger it blows the better it goes" as they say. The most important aspects of an auotpilot is how quickly it reacts and makes adjustments to shifting conditions and how stong it is. All wheel pilots will steer well when going to weather, especially with these Cape Dorys. It's when your off the wind that speed, and power are important. In heavy weather an autopilot loses about 25% of it's performance abilities, so you really need to size an autopilot with that in mind.
So, if you have a windvane then I would consider a good wheel autopilot and use it for motoring or light air days or when your just making short tacks. If you don't plan on having a windvane, I would just bite the bullet and go for the below decks autopilot and look for one that's fast and strong. Of course if I had lot's of money I'd have both the vane and a below decks ap.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Pat
patrick.t@attbi.com
I own a CD36 and have a CPT wheel mounted autopilot. It is now being distributed by ScanMar. They were (and maybe still are) favored by offshore sailors who wanted a wheel pilot. It is much more rugged and powerful then the others on the market, but at a price.... it is also very basic. By todays standards it is caveman techonology. It consists of a very strong motor mounted lower on the pedestal that drives a wheel mounted to your steering wheel. Kinda like the old autohelm 3000. The belt and wheel have very deep grooves, much deeper then any other out there.....less opportunity for slipping.There is an additonal small box that houses the "optical" compass that drives the motor (that 's the caveman part). You make course adjustments on this box. There are none of the fancy things that other wheel pilots have, like steering to a waypoint, or bearing, or auto-tacking....you have to do all that. It is, I believe stonger and faster then all other wheel pilots out there and built to withstand the marine enviornment, but as I said...currently at a price -it's stupid. Sanmar is in the process of trying to bring the control mechanism up to newer technology and then I think it would be the wheel pilot to have.. You might check with them and see where they are on that. Next in line would be the model offered by Simrad....WP30 or something like that. I did alot of comparisons when I went shopping and the Simrad model was the secound fastest (hardover-to-hardover) and stongest (torque) wheel pilot. It is a little funky looking as mentioned before, but so is the CPT - it's a real piece of hardware
Having said all that.....would I buy another wheel pilot? I dunno. It depends on if your are going to rely entirely on the autopilot as your only scource of automatic steering.....in other words if you don't have a windvane. A good windvane steers much more acurately and quickly then an autopilot, but it only steers relative to the wind so there still needs to be some participation on the part of the sailor. "The stronger it blows the better it goes" as they say. The most important aspects of an auotpilot is how quickly it reacts and makes adjustments to shifting conditions and how stong it is. All wheel pilots will steer well when going to weather, especially with these Cape Dorys. It's when your off the wind that speed, and power are important. In heavy weather an autopilot loses about 25% of it's performance abilities, so you really need to size an autopilot with that in mind.
So, if you have a windvane then I would consider a good wheel autopilot and use it for motoring or light air days or when your just making short tacks. If you don't plan on having a windvane, I would just bite the bullet and go for the below decks autopilot and look for one that's fast and strong. Of course if I had lot's of money I'd have both the vane and a below decks ap.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Pat
patrick.t@attbi.com
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Richard Formica
Re: Auto Pilot for CD36
Thanks for the input. It sounds like, as it is in all situations, one gets what one pays for. The cost of the wheel pilot is now 1137.00 with 'the discount'. An the labor, including installing new rudder stops is 500.00.
rich
Hi,
rich
Hi,
Richard Formica wrote: I am putting an auto pilot in this winter. I received two bids. One is for the Raymarine ST4000 wheel pilot. The other is the Raymarine 6000 which is a below decks mounted system. I know the below decks one is better, but it is also about $5500.00 while the wheel pilot is $1700.00. My question is does anyone have a critique of the wheel pilot? It is rated to handle a boat of 18700 lbs displacement.
Thanks,
Rich
Inerarity CD 36
-
Hanalei
Re: 4000+ price should be....
Captain Fomica,
I don't know who is quoting you that price, but I just checked the West Marine site and they show it for $899.99! $1137.00 is WAY out of line!
Dave Stump
I don't know who is quoting you that price, but I just checked the West Marine site and they show it for $899.99! $1137.00 is WAY out of line!
Dave Stump
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John R.
Re: 4000+ price should be....
In addition, install it yourself and save the $500 which is an outrageous price for installing a wheel pilot. Pilots are not difficult to install, that goes for wheel and below deck pilots. If I were you I'd shop around for a clean used below deck pilot before I'd spend the bucks on a new wheel pilot. I've got a 6000 below deck and a wheel pilot is no comparison to it. A below deck pilot is much more appropriate on your 36. The main concern is making sure the drive motor is robustly mounted, the rest of the install is straight forward.Hanalei wrote: Captain Fomica,
I don't know who is quoting you that price, but I just checked the West Marine site and they show it for $899.99! $1137.00 is WAY out of line!
Dave Stump
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John R.
Re: Auto Pilot for CD36
Pat is correct......the CPT's are the toughest wheel pilot around and they have been around a long time. They are not pretty and are not a highly refined piece of gear but they work hard and are built stoutly and are dependable. Their electronics are as basic as one can get. You can find them fairly easily in consignment shops at very good prices. The Simrads are actually Navicos. The WP30 is the previous Navico unit.
Patrick Turner wrote: Richard,
I own a CD36 and have a CPT wheel mounted autopilot. It is now being distributed by ScanMar. They were (and maybe still are) favored by offshore sailors who wanted a wheel pilot. It is much more rugged and powerful then the others on the market, but at a price.... it is also very basic. By todays standards it is caveman techonology. It consists of a very strong motor mounted lower on the pedestal that drives a wheel mounted to your steering wheel. Kinda like the old autohelm 3000. The belt and wheel have very deep grooves, much deeper then any other out there.....less opportunity for slipping.There is an additonal small box that houses the "optical" compass that drives the motor (that 's the caveman part). You make course adjustments on this box. There are none of the fancy things that other wheel pilots have, like steering to a waypoint, or bearing, or auto-tacking....you have to do all that. It is, I believe stonger and faster then all other wheel pilots out there and built to withstand the marine enviornment, but as I said...currently at a price -it's stupid. Sanmar is in the process of trying to bring the control mechanism up to newer technology and then I think it would be the wheel pilot to have.. You might check with them and see where they are on that. Next in line would be the model offered by Simrad....WP30 or something like that. I did alot of comparisons when I went shopping and the Simrad model was the secound fastest (hardover-to-hardover) and stongest (torque) wheel pilot. It is a little funky looking as mentioned before, but so is the CPT - it's a real piece of hardware
Having said all that.....would I buy another wheel pilot? I dunno. It depends on if your are going to rely entirely on the autopilot as your only scource of automatic steering.....in other words if you don't have a windvane. A good windvane steers much more acurately and quickly then an autopilot, but it only steers relative to the wind so there still needs to be some participation on the part of the sailor. "The stronger it blows the better it goes" as they say. The most important aspects of an auotpilot is how quickly it reacts and makes adjustments to shifting conditions and how stong it is. All wheel pilots will steer well when going to weather, especially with these Cape Dorys. It's when your off the wind that speed, and power are important. In heavy weather an autopilot loses about 25% of it's performance abilities, so you really need to size an autopilot with that in mind.
So, if you have a windvane then I would consider a good wheel autopilot and use it for motoring or light air days or when your just making short tacks. If you don't plan on having a windvane, I would just bite the bullet and go for the below decks autopilot and look for one that's fast and strong. Of course if I had lot's of money I'd have both the vane and a below decks ap.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Pat