Sine Qua Non will be on a mooring come this season. I've read the posts about mooring bridles and anchor bridles being preferable to a single pennant. I have not found a good description in any of my books on how exactly to set it up. How do you attach the second pennant to the mooring chain? I suppose the same way the first one is, but is there something you have to be careful about so they don't twist around each other? One pennant would go thru the starboard bow chock and one thru the port chock to their respective bow cleats. Chafing gear on both pennants. Again, any precautions to prevent twisting and fouling of the pennants?
I gotta' keep thinking about these things, even in January, or else this winter is sure gonna' drag!
Thanks
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27
Setsail728@aol.com
Mooring Bridles
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Bob Loewenstein
Re: Mooring Bridles
Warren,
Depsite what you see in books, I've found that what you do depends on your boat. Royce shows some schemes.
On our 27, what I've done for 6 seasons is to have two independent 5/8" mooring lines, each shackled to the upper half of a swivel. The swivel lower half attaches to the chain. The buoy is attached to the upper half of the swivel. Depending on the size of the chain, swivel and buoy it could be done in varying ways. The important thing is to ensure that the two mooring lines don't twist.
Our boat rarely has any twists, and when it does (usually after we are gone for 2-3 weeks) it has no more than one to two revolutions of twist. Our lines are pretty long since our boat is not near any other boats. This seems to help. Twist can occur on those windless days when the bow is bumping into the buoy. We have a hill to the north of the shore and when there's a north wind, the winds are squirrely to about 50 yards offshore. This can also cause the boat and buoy to square dance. Even with these conditions, our mooring arrangement has worked well.
Chafe guards are IMPORTANT to keep at the chocks. I've never noticed any chafe on the lines from swivel to chocks.
BTW, the best buoy IMHO is the type with the pvc pipe through the middle so that the chain comes up through the buoy itself. The mooring lines can then attach to the chain at the top of the buoy (meaning for a given line length, the angle from deck to chain is less than for a connection under water - this less oblique angle helps decrease any chafe at the chocks).
Depsite what you see in books, I've found that what you do depends on your boat. Royce shows some schemes.
On our 27, what I've done for 6 seasons is to have two independent 5/8" mooring lines, each shackled to the upper half of a swivel. The swivel lower half attaches to the chain. The buoy is attached to the upper half of the swivel. Depending on the size of the chain, swivel and buoy it could be done in varying ways. The important thing is to ensure that the two mooring lines don't twist.
Our boat rarely has any twists, and when it does (usually after we are gone for 2-3 weeks) it has no more than one to two revolutions of twist. Our lines are pretty long since our boat is not near any other boats. This seems to help. Twist can occur on those windless days when the bow is bumping into the buoy. We have a hill to the north of the shore and when there's a north wind, the winds are squirrely to about 50 yards offshore. This can also cause the boat and buoy to square dance. Even with these conditions, our mooring arrangement has worked well.
Chafe guards are IMPORTANT to keep at the chocks. I've never noticed any chafe on the lines from swivel to chocks.
BTW, the best buoy IMHO is the type with the pvc pipe through the middle so that the chain comes up through the buoy itself. The mooring lines can then attach to the chain at the top of the buoy (meaning for a given line length, the angle from deck to chain is less than for a connection under water - this less oblique angle helps decrease any chafe at the chocks).
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Larry DeMers
Re: Mooring Bridles
Warren,
Know the feeling you speak of..d r a g g i n g along. heh..
I don't use a mooring often, but the ones I have used did have a double bridle setup already. It was two independant heavy lines, leading from the mooring rode attachment to the ball itself, using thimbles and heavy shackles. One went to the port side and one to the starbd. side of the vessels bow as you described. We spent two days at this mooring awaiting the fog to clear enough to get out. Unfortunately we were (unknowingly) about 200 ft. from the damn fog horn, and that thing was a whootin' all day and all night long for two days..we finally fired up the radar, set a plot on the GPS and moved on.
Anyway, to your question, we did not see any need for a swivel in the mooring bridles, but you certainly could throw one in for ultimate protection against twisting. (We don't have reversing tides etc). From using the moorings, even if we did circle around the ball, the only twisting that could occur would be to the rode from the mooring to the ball itself, and that would tend to untwist when left alone I suspect.
I use one of those huge swivels when we Bahamian Moore (two anchors, 180 deg. apart, used for tight space situations, or where the boat must stay located around a certain point). They are in the West Marine Cat. but are pricey.
AS for a cure for the long boring winter..Last night we were both feeling these blahs, so we watched 1 1/2 hrs. worth of sailing from last summer (video) and that helped a little. However, I think it is time for a trip up north in the forthcoming month. That WILL solve the itch we have, I suspect...temporarily.
Happy New Year!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30
demers@sgi.com
Know the feeling you speak of..d r a g g i n g along. heh..
I don't use a mooring often, but the ones I have used did have a double bridle setup already. It was two independant heavy lines, leading from the mooring rode attachment to the ball itself, using thimbles and heavy shackles. One went to the port side and one to the starbd. side of the vessels bow as you described. We spent two days at this mooring awaiting the fog to clear enough to get out. Unfortunately we were (unknowingly) about 200 ft. from the damn fog horn, and that thing was a whootin' all day and all night long for two days..we finally fired up the radar, set a plot on the GPS and moved on.
Anyway, to your question, we did not see any need for a swivel in the mooring bridles, but you certainly could throw one in for ultimate protection against twisting. (We don't have reversing tides etc). From using the moorings, even if we did circle around the ball, the only twisting that could occur would be to the rode from the mooring to the ball itself, and that would tend to untwist when left alone I suspect.
I use one of those huge swivels when we Bahamian Moore (two anchors, 180 deg. apart, used for tight space situations, or where the boat must stay located around a certain point). They are in the West Marine Cat. but are pricey.
AS for a cure for the long boring winter..Last night we were both feeling these blahs, so we watched 1 1/2 hrs. worth of sailing from last summer (video) and that helped a little. However, I think it is time for a trip up north in the forthcoming month. That WILL solve the itch we have, I suspect...temporarily.
Happy New Year!
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
CD30
Warren Kaplan wrote: Sine Qua Non will be on a mooring come this season. I've read the posts about mooring bridles and anchor bridles being preferable to a single pennant. I have not found a good description in any of my books on how exactly to set it up. How do you attach the second pennant to the mooring chain? I suppose the same way the first one is, but is there something you have to be careful about so they don't twist around each other? One pennant would go thru the starboard bow chock and one thru the port chock to their respective bow cleats. Chafing gear on both pennants. Again, any precautions to prevent twisting and fouling of the pennants?
I gotta' keep thinking about these things, even in January, or else this winter is sure gonna' drag!
Thanks
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27
demers@sgi.com
-
Bob Pence
Re: Mooring Bridles
Should for some reason, the top half of the swivel break, both mooring lines will part from the mooring. You are better off fastening each mooring line to a separate link. I kept my CD30 K on a mooring at Great Kill in Staten Island for years on a single mooring. There are 250 moorings in the harbor and less than 5% use a bridle. I was on the mooring committee for the yacht club. Best moorings I have seen are in Vero Beach Municipal Marina, helix with single line up through buoy, they put 3 boats on a mooring at Thanksgiving.I lost my Pearson 365 in Belhaven Harbor in Hurricane Bertha in 1996 with a bridle. The force of the hurrican lifted the boat over 10' in the air. The downward force of the lines on the bronze chocks cracked both in half, they turned as they are thru bolted on each end and the sharp edges of the broken chocks cut the doubled bridle lines on both sides in half. I was in Europe at the time or I would have moved off the mooring and up the creek.Bob Loewenstein wrote: Warren,
Depsite what you see in books, I've found that what you do depends on your boat. Royce shows some schemes.
On our 27, what I've done for 6 seasons is to have two independent 5/8" mooring lines, each shackled to the upper half of a swivel. The swivel lower half attaches to the chain. The buoy is attached to the upper half of the swivel. Depending on the size of the chain, swivel and buoy it could be done in varying ways. The important thing is to ensure that the two mooring lines don't twist.
Our boat rarely has any twists, and when it does (usually after we are gone for 2-3 weeks) it has no more than one to two revolutions of twist. Our lines are pretty long since our boat is not near any other boats. This seems to help. Twist can occur on those windless days when the bow is bumping into the buoy. We have a hill to the north of the shore and when there's a north wind, the winds are squirrely to about 50 yards offshore. This can also cause the boat and buoy to square dance. Even with these conditions, our mooring arrangement has worked well.
Chafe guards are IMPORTANT to keep at the chocks. I've never noticed any chafe on the lines from swivel to chocks.
BTW, the best buoy IMHO is the type with the pvc pipe through the middle so that the chain comes up through the buoy itself. The mooring lines can then attach to the chain at the top of the buoy (meaning for a given line length, the angle from deck to chain is less than for a connection under water - this less oblique angle helps decrease any chafe at the chocks).
sixpence@dmv.com
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Ann and David Brownlee
Re: Mooring Bridles
We kept a CD 25 on a mooring on the Delaware, then moved her to a mooring on the Susquehanna (head of the Chesapeake). When we bought our 27, we also kept her on a mooring on the Susquehanna for several years before moving to a slip. Here's what we learned.
The combination of sometimes prolonged light air and reversing tides (which promote wraps, tangles, and other woe) on both rivers require some special arrangments. At the Red Dragon Canoe Club on the Delaware (a *very* pretty spot south of Burlington) and at the first marina that we used in Havre de Grace on the Susquehanna, the practice is to shackle a VERY heavy nylon line to the chain. The line is as big as your bow cleat will allow and as long as the water is deep, and when the mooring is vacant, the chain falls to the bottom and a smallish buoy keeps the end of the rope pennant afloat. The pennant (along with the buoy) is hauled directly aboard and cleated. With just a single (big!) pennant, there is no danger of wraps. And wraps are very dangerous.
We learned just how dangerous they can be when we changed marinas on the Susquehanna. Here the moorings are more conventional, with very nice buoys of the kind that have PVC pipe through the center, through which the chain rises. Mooring pennants are attached to the chain where it emerges from the top of the buoy. We set ourselves up with dual pennants attached to a big swivel on the end of the mooring chain. The swivel kept the pennants from twisting around themselves, but it didn't keep them from getting wrapped around the chain under the buoy. This happened frequently when the boat doodled around in light air and reversing tides, and we sawed right through several pennants. Fortunately, we lost just one pennant at a time. We could have shortened the pennants, of course, but they would have had to be VERY short, and this is a fairly exposed mooring field right at the mouth of the Susquehanna, and we wanted them to be as long as possible. So in the end we lashed small floats (made for nets or ski tow lines?) to each pennant about three feet from the buoy. That prevented the wraps.
However, in very light air, moored boats here face another problem when they drift up to their buoys and nuzzle them until the bootstripe is badly scratched. On our previous moorings, this problem was solved by hauling the buoy aboard, but this one really couldn't be set up for that (and, truth to tell, hauling the slimey buoy onto the deck and scrubbing it clean after we'd been away for a few days was never much fun). So we stiched a heavy canvas shroud over the shackles and swivel on top of the buoy. It was these bits of steel that did most of the damage, but even the hard plastic shell of the buoy can do alot of harm on a day when light wind and adverse tide keep the boat against the buoy.
We've come to believe in plain canvas chafing gear. We wrap it around the line serveral time and lash it with small cord at each end. The leather sewn-in-place chafing gear is worn through in one windy day, and we don't like the blackened, melted appearance taken on by the store-bought split tube rubber chafing gear after less than a season of use. We haven't tried some of the other possiblities (garden hose, store-bought polyester tubing).
Ann and David Brownlee
CD 31 #1 "Windrush"
Havre de Grace, MD
dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu
The combination of sometimes prolonged light air and reversing tides (which promote wraps, tangles, and other woe) on both rivers require some special arrangments. At the Red Dragon Canoe Club on the Delaware (a *very* pretty spot south of Burlington) and at the first marina that we used in Havre de Grace on the Susquehanna, the practice is to shackle a VERY heavy nylon line to the chain. The line is as big as your bow cleat will allow and as long as the water is deep, and when the mooring is vacant, the chain falls to the bottom and a smallish buoy keeps the end of the rope pennant afloat. The pennant (along with the buoy) is hauled directly aboard and cleated. With just a single (big!) pennant, there is no danger of wraps. And wraps are very dangerous.
We learned just how dangerous they can be when we changed marinas on the Susquehanna. Here the moorings are more conventional, with very nice buoys of the kind that have PVC pipe through the center, through which the chain rises. Mooring pennants are attached to the chain where it emerges from the top of the buoy. We set ourselves up with dual pennants attached to a big swivel on the end of the mooring chain. The swivel kept the pennants from twisting around themselves, but it didn't keep them from getting wrapped around the chain under the buoy. This happened frequently when the boat doodled around in light air and reversing tides, and we sawed right through several pennants. Fortunately, we lost just one pennant at a time. We could have shortened the pennants, of course, but they would have had to be VERY short, and this is a fairly exposed mooring field right at the mouth of the Susquehanna, and we wanted them to be as long as possible. So in the end we lashed small floats (made for nets or ski tow lines?) to each pennant about three feet from the buoy. That prevented the wraps.
However, in very light air, moored boats here face another problem when they drift up to their buoys and nuzzle them until the bootstripe is badly scratched. On our previous moorings, this problem was solved by hauling the buoy aboard, but this one really couldn't be set up for that (and, truth to tell, hauling the slimey buoy onto the deck and scrubbing it clean after we'd been away for a few days was never much fun). So we stiched a heavy canvas shroud over the shackles and swivel on top of the buoy. It was these bits of steel that did most of the damage, but even the hard plastic shell of the buoy can do alot of harm on a day when light wind and adverse tide keep the boat against the buoy.
We've come to believe in plain canvas chafing gear. We wrap it around the line serveral time and lash it with small cord at each end. The leather sewn-in-place chafing gear is worn through in one windy day, and we don't like the blackened, melted appearance taken on by the store-bought split tube rubber chafing gear after less than a season of use. We haven't tried some of the other possiblities (garden hose, store-bought polyester tubing).
Ann and David Brownlee
CD 31 #1 "Windrush"
Havre de Grace, MD
dbrownle@sas.upenn.edu
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Al Levesque
Re: Mooring Bridles
The replies so far seem to cover the subject well. I minimize the hardware on top of the buoy to keep it from wearing both the buoy and the topsides. I also tie the pennants together for whatever portion that can reach the water. I use small stuff or tape every foot or so. This keeps the pennants from wrapping around the buoy separately.Warren Kaplan wrote: Sine Qua Non will be on a mooring come this season. I've read the posts about mooring bridles and anchor bridles being preferable to a single pennant. I have not found a good description in any of my books on how exactly to set it up. How do you attach the second pennant to the mooring chain? I suppose the same way the first one is, but is there something you have to be careful about so they don't twist around each other?
The solution for twisting: Use the boat often
albertlevesque@cove.com
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Harris
Re: Mooring Bridles
Never used a bridle but before I got a "pvc pipe through the middle bouy" I wrapped and frayed one or tow pennants a year. After going to the the new bouy and shortening up the pennent, my pennant has lasted 6 years. Overly heavy chain is the key to reduce stress. Shop for a harder chafe resistant rope as well and go for 3/4".
hg@myhost.com
hg@myhost.com
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Ken Coit
Mooring
Back when I kept a Lightning on a mooring, I used a mooring buoy with a galvanized shaft from one end to the other. At the boat end, we tied the pennant into a bow eye with a latching hook. It didn't run over any chocks or to any cleats; the bow eye was through bolted to the stem. All the friction was steel to steel. If you are going to moor, why wouldn't you use a bow eye bolted through the stem?
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
PPPPparfait@nc.rr.com
Ken
CD/36 Parfait
Raleigh, NC
Harris wrote: Never used a bridle but before I got a "pvc pipe through the middle bouy" I wrapped and frayed one or tow pennants a year. After going to the the new bouy and shortening up the pennent, my pennant has lasted 6 years. Overly heavy chain is the key to reduce stress. Shop for a harder chafe resistant rope as well and go for 3/4".
PPPPparfait@nc.rr.com
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Don S.
Re: Mooring Bridles
Warren,
The bridle design I've used sucessfully for over 30 years in Greenwich Cove (western LIS) consists of a Y-shaped piece of 3/4" nylon with eight-inch eye splices on the boat ends and a galvanized thimble on the chain end attached with a large swivel to the chain. The "y" is made by splicing one piece (a short one) of rope into the other (which is the full length of the tackle) with at least six tucks. The overall length is a matter of how far the deck is above the water, where the cleats are on the deck, the depth of the water, the amount of tide and length of the chains. I think my bridle (the rope-part) is about twelve feet overall with the legs about five feet long. The gear needs to be changed every two-three years depending on the quality of the chafing gear used. The rope will wear on the inside even if it shows no chafe on the outside. The bridle has to make a very tight turn over the bow of my 25D and the cleats are much too far away from the edge to be really safe. A flaw in the design fer sure so I always stuff an old tee shirt between the line and the chocks when heavy weather is predicted. A proper design has the cleats right at the deck's edge. Chafe is the main killer of mooring lines. 3/4" nylon is more than heavy enough to hold the boat but the bridle distributes the load and spreads (lessens) the chafe. I bought some neat chafing gear last season -- can't remember the brand but it cost around $20-- very heavy rip-stop nylon and velcro which makes a nice tight non-slip tube. It'll never wear out but the inside of the line has to be checked regularly, particularly if you moor in a heavily trafficked area.
I don't like mooring balls for a free floating mooring. They just bang all nite and mar the hull during slack tide. I use a pick-up buoy attached to one eye and a bullet-float attached to the other as a backup.
Your friendly dockmaster or harbormaster is the last word on acceptable mooring gear design for your area, however. We're required to have our tackle certified every three years.
Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Greenwich Cove
The bridle design I've used sucessfully for over 30 years in Greenwich Cove (western LIS) consists of a Y-shaped piece of 3/4" nylon with eight-inch eye splices on the boat ends and a galvanized thimble on the chain end attached with a large swivel to the chain. The "y" is made by splicing one piece (a short one) of rope into the other (which is the full length of the tackle) with at least six tucks. The overall length is a matter of how far the deck is above the water, where the cleats are on the deck, the depth of the water, the amount of tide and length of the chains. I think my bridle (the rope-part) is about twelve feet overall with the legs about five feet long. The gear needs to be changed every two-three years depending on the quality of the chafing gear used. The rope will wear on the inside even if it shows no chafe on the outside. The bridle has to make a very tight turn over the bow of my 25D and the cleats are much too far away from the edge to be really safe. A flaw in the design fer sure so I always stuff an old tee shirt between the line and the chocks when heavy weather is predicted. A proper design has the cleats right at the deck's edge. Chafe is the main killer of mooring lines. 3/4" nylon is more than heavy enough to hold the boat but the bridle distributes the load and spreads (lessens) the chafe. I bought some neat chafing gear last season -- can't remember the brand but it cost around $20-- very heavy rip-stop nylon and velcro which makes a nice tight non-slip tube. It'll never wear out but the inside of the line has to be checked regularly, particularly if you moor in a heavily trafficked area.
I don't like mooring balls for a free floating mooring. They just bang all nite and mar the hull during slack tide. I use a pick-up buoy attached to one eye and a bullet-float attached to the other as a backup.
Your friendly dockmaster or harbormaster is the last word on acceptable mooring gear design for your area, however. We're required to have our tackle certified every three years.
Don Sargeant
~~COQUINA~~
CD25D #189
Greenwich Cove
Warren Kaplan wrote: Sine Qua Non will be on a mooring come this season. I've read the posts about mooring bridles and anchor bridles being preferable to a single pennant. I have not found a good description in any of my books on how exactly to set it up. How do you attach the second pennant to the mooring chain? I suppose the same way the first one is, but is there something you have to be careful about so they don't twist around each other? One pennant would go thru the starboard bow chock and one thru the port chock to their respective bow cleats. Chafing gear on both pennants. Again, any precautions to prevent twisting and fouling of the pennants?
I gotta' keep thinking about these things, even in January, or else this winter is sure gonna' drag!
Thanks
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27
-
Joe Mac Phee
Re: Mooring Bridles and wraps
Warren,
The BIG problem with a two pennant bridle on your mooring is not related to having them twist around each other. They probably will wind up a bit like a two stranded larger rope with no serious loss in strength. The really serious problem is when they separate and one wraps around the mooring chain and gets sawed off while the other tugs on the ball to help the sawing action. When I first started using my mooring ten years ago I had this problem continously. The final solution is to use a mooring ball with the hole up the middle and the mooring chain goes to the top of the ball (never attach the pennant to the bottom of the ball!). Ask me how I know
. I use two pennants attached to the chain at the top with shackles and rings. Most important, the two pennants are lashed together for the first four feet (they are about 14 feet totally). The lashing keeps the pennants together so that a single one cannot wrap the ball. If perversely, both wrap the ball, since there are no fittings at the bottom and nothing to catch onto, the ball will just spin and the pennants will just spin free. The swivel on my mooring is between the 1 inch chain and the 5/8 chain. The usual precautions about chafing gear at the chock are needed as with any mooring setup. I hope this description is clear.
Happy mooring
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD/30-K
jvmacphee@aol.com
The BIG problem with a two pennant bridle on your mooring is not related to having them twist around each other. They probably will wind up a bit like a two stranded larger rope with no serious loss in strength. The really serious problem is when they separate and one wraps around the mooring chain and gets sawed off while the other tugs on the ball to help the sawing action. When I first started using my mooring ten years ago I had this problem continously. The final solution is to use a mooring ball with the hole up the middle and the mooring chain goes to the top of the ball (never attach the pennant to the bottom of the ball!). Ask me how I know
. I use two pennants attached to the chain at the top with shackles and rings. Most important, the two pennants are lashed together for the first four feet (they are about 14 feet totally). The lashing keeps the pennants together so that a single one cannot wrap the ball. If perversely, both wrap the ball, since there are no fittings at the bottom and nothing to catch onto, the ball will just spin and the pennants will just spin free. The swivel on my mooring is between the 1 inch chain and the 5/8 chain. The usual precautions about chafing gear at the chock are needed as with any mooring setup. I hope this description is clear.Happy mooring
Joe Mac Phee
S/V Iolanthe
CD/30-K
jvmacphee@aol.com
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Bob Loewenstein
Re: Mooring Bridles and wraps
I've seen severe chafe in twisted mooring lines. As the boat dances in to the wind with the lines twisted, they actually can saw against each other. One boat in the nearby mooring field broke loose because of this. His mooring lines were very short and several times I saw them twisted all the way to the bow!Joe Mac Phee wrote: The BIG problem with a two pennant bridle on your mooring is not related to having them twist around each other. They probably will wind up a bit like a two stranded larger rope with no serious loss in strength.
Joe's method is the way to go...chain through the buoy.
Bob