I find myself currently in a battery charging dilemma. First, I have installed two new Trojans 225's (130 amp hr. ea.) batteries. As we have been upgrading our electrical system and using more amp hours, I wanted to upgrade our alternator as well as use our old one (50 amp, producing 16-24 amps at 1300 rpms - the original one supplied with the Westerbeke) as a back up. I purchased a new high output alternator (100 amp, producing 70 amps at 1200 rpms). Both alternators are internally regulated. I also installed a battery combiner and a separate battery monitor.
When I hooked up the new alternator today, the output voltage was 14.63-5 which soon set off the high voltage battery alarm. I let the engine run for about half an hour and the voltage never decreased below the 14.6 reading. In consulting with the battery alarm manufacturer, I was informed that a voltage of 14.6 was much to high. They recommended that it not exceed 14.2. In consulting with the manufacturer of the alternator I was told that 14.6 was fine that it would not overcharge my batteries and in fact would actually keep them charged quickly and topped off. He further stated that the real issue was not the voltage but the amperage that is being put in. Thus, I find myself between a rock and a hard place. Who's right?
In doing some research this evening, all the books (Casey, Calder, etc.) seem to indicate that 14.4 should be pretty much the max, and that it should drop off once the battery has accepted its full charge. Will an internally regulated alternator change its output voltage?
I know that many of you are very experienced in battery charging and marine electrical matters. Can someone please help me sort this out?
Thanks.
Jack King
s/v ARTESANI
(1983 CD27, #267)
Artesani@mindspring.com
Battery Charging Delimma - HELP!
Moderator: Jim Walsh
-
Will Parker
Re: Battery Charging Delimma - HELP!
Merely putting in a bigger, automotive type alternator won't help, and in fact will hurt as you found out, unless you use a proper 3-stage regulator, such as those made by Balmar and advertised in the West Marine catalog. Balmar has a web page (Balmar.net). It would be useful to read what they have to say about their own products. I just finished installing a Balmar high output (75 amp) alternator and three stage (external) regulator, on my Universal 14 hp engine. I have AGM batteries. The regulator has different settings for whatever type batteries you have.
Good luck.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30C
whildenp@flinet.com
Good luck.
Will
"Jambalaya"
CD 30C
Jack King wrote: I find myself currently in a battery charging dilemma. First, I have installed two new Trojans 225's (130 amp hr. ea.) batteries. As we have been upgrading our electrical system and using more amp hours, I wanted to upgrade our alternator as well as use our old one (50 amp, producing 16-24 amps at 1300 rpms - the original one supplied with the Westerbeke) as a back up. I purchased a new high output alternator (100 amp, producing 70 amps at 1200 rpms). Both alternators are internally regulated. I also installed a battery combiner and a separate battery monitor.
When I hooked up the new alternator today, the output voltage was 14.63-5 which soon set off the high voltage battery alarm. I let the engine run for about half an hour and the voltage never decreased below the 14.6 reading. In consulting with the battery alarm manufacturer, I was informed that a voltage of 14.6 was much to high. They recommended that it not exceed 14.2. In consulting with the manufacturer of the alternator I was told that 14.6 was fine that it would not overcharge my batteries and in fact would actually keep them charged quickly and topped off. He further stated that the real issue was not the voltage but the amperage that is being put in. Thus, I find myself between a rock and a hard place. Who's right?
In doing some research this evening, all the books (Casey, Calder, etc.) seem to indicate that 14.4 should be pretty much the max, and that it should drop off once the battery has accepted its full charge. Will an internally regulated alternator change its output voltage?
I know that many of you are very experienced in battery charging and marine electrical matters. Can someone please help me sort this out?
Thanks.
Jack King
s/v ARTESANI
(1983 CD27, #267)
whildenp@flinet.com
-
Warren Kaplan
Re: Battery Charging Delimma - HELP!
Jack,
Battery charging has come up many times before on this board. If you type in..battery chargers.. in the search function on the top of this page a whole host of previous discussions will come up for you to review. Perhaps your answers and thensome will be in there.
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)
Setsail728@aol.com
Battery charging has come up many times before on this board. If you type in..battery chargers.. in the search function on the top of this page a whole host of previous discussions will come up for you to review. Perhaps your answers and thensome will be in there.
Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)
Setsail728@aol.com
-
Larry DeMers
Re: Battery Charging Help..longish answer
Jack,
You undertook a voyage to increase your power capabilities, but I think you got off course part way there.
Your voltage of 14.6v is what a car battery is expecting to see for a charge voltage. In marine use, a high output alternator always comes with an *External* regulator, which can be set to the type of battery and other factors that are battery specific.
For instance, if you were using Gel Cells, your 14.6v charging voltage would have ruined those cells. They simply cannot handle any voltage above about 14.2-14.4v.
Lead acid cells can and do handle 14.6v ok, but you must have the ability to switch this upper voltage to match your cell types.
Addtiionally, *all* battery manufactures (especially Trojan)require that a 3 stage charge protocol be used with their batteries for maximum life and utility. This protocol consists of a bulk phase, which pours in about 80% of the aH that you have removed at 14.2v. At just about the point where your cell bank starts to gas, the regulator switches to the second step..or acceptance phase.
This step reduces the current to a smaller number, and holds the voltage constant at 14.2-14.4v I believe (manual is on the boat) until the battery voltage comes up further, accounting for the last 20% of the charge you removed from the bank. At this point, the third phase is switched on.
This is the Float Phase. Here, the voltage is raised to the maximum for your battery type, and the current is throttled way back to a trickle charge level, so that a surface charge is maintained on the battery, keeping it fully charged and healthy.
Your alternator takes care of all of these things automatically, and this is what you need to do. I would recommend removing and returning (if possible) the new alternator, and purchasing the Balmar 80A, single-belt/pulley high output alternator, and the West Marine or Heart Interface (called xylinx or something now)or other name brand regulator. They work as you are wanting the unit you now have, works, and will provide the recharge capability that you need.
Ours will take our Golf Cart Reefer bank, and the Group 31 House banks from 50% discharged (max. you should discharge to) to 100 % charged in under 1 hour.
IN the same conditions, your current system will take a day or two to reach fully charged, because the automotive internal regulator throttles back to a trickle charge at the 75% full point and takes forever to reach fully recharged. Bad news for folks that sail, as that means motoring A LOT to get that charge back.
Now another item you mentioned caught my attention, and needs claifying.
You said"... I wanted to upgrade our alternator as well as use our old one (50 amp, producing 16-24 amps at 1300 rpms - the original one supplied with the Westerbeke) as a back up."
You cannot use an internaly regulated alternator and a externally regulated alternator on the same loads. Even through the Battery Combiner (excellent choice..they work wonderfully. Get the remote control/ indicator panel too..you will need it if you are at all curious about what is happening etc. It gives you a remote control over the combiner that is needed occasionally)the two protocols are incompatible, with one confounding the other. You are wise to want a backup. What I did was to retain the original wiring harness, capped off and taped to a wire loom for safety and convenience. Then I took the old 50Amp alternator and put it into a plastic bag, sealed it shut with tape, and then boxed it up in a plastic storage box of the right size, and stowed the whole shebang wedged into a space near our cockpit seacocks. It will not move, is higher than the bilge so will never get wet, and is out of the way. I can have it mounted in probably 30 minutes. There..a back up, but not messing up the expensive high output alt. protocol.
Summary:
1. Get rid of the "car alternators"
2. Replace with High Output Balmar 75 or 80 amp models (Get their
pulley for your engine also!)
3. Stow that original alt. in the boat and do not use it at the
same time as the new alternator is used...won't be needed anyway.
4. Use an External regulator (West Marine or Heart Interface or
Cruising Equip.)
Write me if you have an questions on this project. I did it last year, and learned a fistful!
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
demers@sgi.com
You undertook a voyage to increase your power capabilities, but I think you got off course part way there.
Your voltage of 14.6v is what a car battery is expecting to see for a charge voltage. In marine use, a high output alternator always comes with an *External* regulator, which can be set to the type of battery and other factors that are battery specific.
For instance, if you were using Gel Cells, your 14.6v charging voltage would have ruined those cells. They simply cannot handle any voltage above about 14.2-14.4v.
Lead acid cells can and do handle 14.6v ok, but you must have the ability to switch this upper voltage to match your cell types.
Addtiionally, *all* battery manufactures (especially Trojan)require that a 3 stage charge protocol be used with their batteries for maximum life and utility. This protocol consists of a bulk phase, which pours in about 80% of the aH that you have removed at 14.2v. At just about the point where your cell bank starts to gas, the regulator switches to the second step..or acceptance phase.
This step reduces the current to a smaller number, and holds the voltage constant at 14.2-14.4v I believe (manual is on the boat) until the battery voltage comes up further, accounting for the last 20% of the charge you removed from the bank. At this point, the third phase is switched on.
This is the Float Phase. Here, the voltage is raised to the maximum for your battery type, and the current is throttled way back to a trickle charge level, so that a surface charge is maintained on the battery, keeping it fully charged and healthy.
Your alternator takes care of all of these things automatically, and this is what you need to do. I would recommend removing and returning (if possible) the new alternator, and purchasing the Balmar 80A, single-belt/pulley high output alternator, and the West Marine or Heart Interface (called xylinx or something now)or other name brand regulator. They work as you are wanting the unit you now have, works, and will provide the recharge capability that you need.
Ours will take our Golf Cart Reefer bank, and the Group 31 House banks from 50% discharged (max. you should discharge to) to 100 % charged in under 1 hour.
IN the same conditions, your current system will take a day or two to reach fully charged, because the automotive internal regulator throttles back to a trickle charge at the 75% full point and takes forever to reach fully recharged. Bad news for folks that sail, as that means motoring A LOT to get that charge back.
Now another item you mentioned caught my attention, and needs claifying.
You said"... I wanted to upgrade our alternator as well as use our old one (50 amp, producing 16-24 amps at 1300 rpms - the original one supplied with the Westerbeke) as a back up."
You cannot use an internaly regulated alternator and a externally regulated alternator on the same loads. Even through the Battery Combiner (excellent choice..they work wonderfully. Get the remote control/ indicator panel too..you will need it if you are at all curious about what is happening etc. It gives you a remote control over the combiner that is needed occasionally)the two protocols are incompatible, with one confounding the other. You are wise to want a backup. What I did was to retain the original wiring harness, capped off and taped to a wire loom for safety and convenience. Then I took the old 50Amp alternator and put it into a plastic bag, sealed it shut with tape, and then boxed it up in a plastic storage box of the right size, and stowed the whole shebang wedged into a space near our cockpit seacocks. It will not move, is higher than the bilge so will never get wet, and is out of the way. I can have it mounted in probably 30 minutes. There..a back up, but not messing up the expensive high output alt. protocol.
Summary:
1. Get rid of the "car alternators"
2. Replace with High Output Balmar 75 or 80 amp models (Get their
pulley for your engine also!)
3. Stow that original alt. in the boat and do not use it at the
same time as the new alternator is used...won't be needed anyway.
4. Use an External regulator (West Marine or Heart Interface or
Cruising Equip.)
Write me if you have an questions on this project. I did it last year, and learned a fistful!
Cheers,
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior
Jack King wrote: I find myself currently in a battery charging dilemma. First, I have installed two new Trojans 225's (130 amp hr. ea.) batteries. As we have been upgrading our electrical system and using more amp hours, I wanted to upgrade our alternator as well as use our old one (50 amp, producing 16-24 amps at 1300 rpms - the original one supplied with the Westerbeke) as a back up. I purchased a new high output alternator (100 amp, producing 70 amps at 1200 rpms). Both alternators are internally regulated. I also installed a battery combiner and a separate battery monitor.
When I hooked up the new alternator today, the output voltage was 14.63-5 which soon set off the high voltage battery alarm. I let the engine run for about half an hour and the voltage never decreased below the 14.6 reading. In consulting with the battery alarm manufacturer, I was informed that a voltage of 14.6 was much to high. They recommended that it not exceed 14.2. In consulting with the manufacturer of the alternator I was told that 14.6 was fine that it would not overcharge my batteries and in fact would actually keep them charged quickly and topped off. He further stated that the real issue was not the voltage but the amperage that is being put in. Thus, I find myself between a rock and a hard place. Who's right?
In doing some research this evening, all the books (Casey, Calder, etc.) seem to indicate that 14.4 should be pretty much the max, and that it should drop off once the battery has accepted its full charge. Will an internally regulated alternator change its output voltage?
I know that many of you are very experienced in battery charging and marine electrical matters. Can someone please help me sort this out?
Thanks.
Jack King
s/v ARTESANI
(1983 CD27, #267)
demers@sgi.com
-
Mark Yashinsky
Re: Battery Charging Delimma - HELP!
Do you have a separate starter battery??? That would be ideal for the original alternator, then get an external regulated, name brand regulator/alternator combo for the house banks (dual output???). High end Balmar regulators have a "halogen" curve for voltage sensitive cases. 14.6 is too much!!