CD30 cutter to sloop?

[Larry DeMers]

Ed,

This is one area where I may have the two positions reversed in my mind. I will double check with Skenes Elements of Design tonight, and try to remember the relationship in some way that sticks better! heh..old age, too much going on, and a certain amount of plain old stupidity I guess. It surprises me that the Cape Dory cutter is not a true cutter. I have read that previously, and always thought the opinion in error. Now I wonder...
Thanks for setting me straight Ed.

Larry

Thanks, Larry for your feedback. I used to wonder about it just as did Skip a while ago. Why do they call some of the rigged Cape Dorys "cutters" when the mast is so far forward. By definition, cutters have the mast designed in the center of the boat (50% aft of the headstay attachment at the bow, if you will).

I looked at all the designs of the Cape Dorys in the Registry and did an analysis of the distance aft of the headstay attachment on deck that the mast was positioned. I'd say that with an accuracy within 1%, the mast was designed 41 to 42% aft of the headstay attachment, whether you're talking about a sloop or cutter (I didn't look at ketches). So I questioned whether, in fact, the so-called cutters were actually cutters. In my way of thinking, the position of the mast on Cape Dorys indicated that they're actually sloops!

So I wrote Dave Perry at Robinhood Marine to pose the question to him that Skip presented on this board. I asked Perry if it made a difference whether you sailed a cutter as a sloop or viceversa. I also mentioned that I preferred to sail as a sloop since I have better performance, IMHO.

Dave's response:
Ed,
You are correct . A true cutter rig places the mast about 50% aft of the headstay, whereas a sloop's mast is further forward. And there maybe no "rule" that says a cutter has to have two jibs, it's just that they usually do. Thus Cape Dory Cutters are really double headsail rigged sloops. If you want to make a Cape Dory really perform just remove the staysail and set a nic 130-150% jib!
Dave Perry

I also agree with you about the versatility of the cutter-rigged CD. It is better for cruising and I do so on long trips. However, when participating in fun races, I sail as a sloop and get superb performance. When using spinnakers, gennakers, drifters or bloopers, the staysail merely gets in the way as does the club.

I may not be classified as a "racer" but I'm not alone in "tweaking" my sails to catch up with the guy in front. I think we sailors have that in common. All this futzing and trimming is what takes our minds off other things. It may not be easy at times but it sure takes a load off your mind!!! IMHO, of course!

demers@sgi.com

[Clay Stalker]

Captain Stalker,

Two things, if the Yankee is normal sized, ie. hasn't been changed out for a 150 or bigger genoa, it will go through the slot just fine. I have NEVER reefed it just to tack, that seems like a lot of work! Second, as for winches, remember, we are "Cruisers" (Oh Boy, I'll take a beatin' for this!)not racers and winches are not required on a cruising cutter. They are there because they look "Shippy". Need to trim a sheet, head up and luff, and you can trim even the largest sail BY HAND!

FWIW.....your most HUMBLE servant.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1

Esteemed Captain Stump:

I am in agreement that we don't need winches to tack our craft, but I fly a 135 genny on a Harken furler and there are times that I am darned glad I have my big bronze Lewmars...I rarely use a winch handle however, but I like the winches. The 135 also provides a lot of drive that I don't get with the main. Some on this board have thought I was crazy when describing some rides I have taken in the 6.5 knot range in my little 27, but the bit headsail makes a huge difference in power that I can't imagine is available with two smaller headsails...Just my 2 cents again...

Clay Stalker
(hanging from winches on the hard....)



cstalker@cheshire.net

[Mike Thorpe]

Captains' Heintz,

Thank you for bring this, "I'm not a racer," charade to light. We members of the NE Fleet know that this is one more example of Captain Stump trying to stack the deck for next summer. Nay I say: do not succumb to this propaganda. Captain Stump was the rightful winner of the 2001 Cape Dory Rendezvous race and next summer will have to defend his #1 title where it counts...on the water. The Maine sail awaits you Captain Stump. Prepare for the challenge, Journy's End, winches intact, awaits you and all other Cape Dorians who wish to try their luck.

Captain Thorpe
Respectful Captain of Journey's End
The 1st Cape Dory to finish the 2001 overnight sail to Maine.

All right you did ask for it!!!!!

Is this the beginning of disclaimers for next years loss? Or is this just a deceitful campaign to lull us into complacency.

Oh, Captain Stump, to recall you in Block Island claiming your (rightful) win, to assert that YOU are NOT a RACER, goes against all that I have seen and heard since that race.

Fellow Dorians do not let Captain Stump fool you. He is a racer in a cruisers disguise.

I want to see him remove all his winches, and trim by hand only.

I remain yours, Sir, your most HUMBLE servant......

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Racing Sloop
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II....... The only TRUE CD 30 sloop !!!!!!
and Yes this sloop can point the HE__ past the CD 30 Cutter

CDSOA # 2 ( Spinnaker division )

mthorpe@capecod.net

[Tom]

The cutter rig is THE choice of cruising sailors everywhere. If you're coming from a background of sloops, give yourself a chance to get used to it, you'll probably learn to love it -- I did. And what's all this about clutter on the foredeck? With a roller furling genoa you're never on the foredeck except to anchor and when you're anchoring you're ahead of the staysail anyway. Actually the staysail stay and the staysail boom (with staysail furled and sheeted in) are handy places to hang onto any time you're forward.

Ed,

I have to chime in here with a defense of the cutter rig apparently.

Why do you say that the CD30 is not a true cutter? She was designed from scratch as a cutter as far as all the reading I have done goes. So where does the design fall short of "cutter" status in your book, especially since there were no sloop rigged cutters produced at the CD factory as far as I know (ie: they were not just converted as a sales gimick).

Reason I ask is that usually the sloop converted cutter has a problem with sail balancing due to the mast position being too far back..as the mast is moved forward a bit with the cutter rigs. So how can you even compare it to determine where the sloop rigs mast should be??

I like the utility of the cutter rig in high wind management. Get past the point where the genoa is of use, and in a cutter with reefed main and staysail only, the boat settles down, stands up, and loses it's heavy weather helm (due to the high winds and large sail area being reduced), giving a more pleasant motion and a happier boat that stays at about the same or possibly higher speed.
With a sloop rig, you are stuck aren't you? All that you have left to do is hank on successively smaller sails to balance the reefed main. Note that during each of these sail changes you are forced out to the bow of the boat again and again. That is dangerous in the winds and waves one would expect during this kind of weather.
The advantage of the cutter comes into play here too. The sail area is now concentrated down lower and toward the center of the boat, away from the bow. This is perfect for these conditions.

I respectfully disagree that the sloop rig is a better rig for the CD30, or any cruising boat in fact..and certainly the CD30. I think that people find the narrow slot that the genoa is tacked thru to be the challenge with the staysail in place. We have 12 years, and 17,000 miles with this cuttter rig, and honestly, tacking the boat is just another thing we do..it is not a problem once you work out a way to do it gracefully. We tack at the same rate and manner as any other sloop would tack. We use the winds action on the genoa to help power the sail thru the slot, and I have described this process numerous times previously so will not bore everyone with that again.
I find that peoples frustration with the slot and having to roll the genoa in and unroll it again sort of pushes them into accepting the boat as a sloop rig. That is their compromise I guess, but it throws away the benefits of the cutter rig.

I have added an adjustable outhaul and reefing to my staysail, and now have the ability to tune that sail finely, giving us another 1/2 kt in speed along with faster acceleration in puffs.

To be honest..converting the cutter to sloop rig seems to be a poor compromise to me.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lac Superior'

The conversion to a singled headed sailing sloop was a preference of mine on my CD330, which was designed as a double headed sloop. I also removed the staysail from my previous CD28. Like Joe indicated, there are advantages to both setups and you have to decide which one you prefer. Having sailed with a roller furled genoa (both 130 and 150) I can tell you that a CD sails fast and eagerly with the staysail removed. You'll really be surprised how fast she sails with proper sail trim. I plan to use the yankee on my CD330 as a reefed 130.

There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.

Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Warren Kaplan]

Captain Stump,
Nobody has managed to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge or any swamp land in Florida (yet). You never miss an opportunity to brandish "CDSOA #1" on all communications eminating from eastern Connecticut and yet you expect us to swallow a mea culpa, "I am a cruiser!" Tell me, Cruising Pirate Captain Stump, is it not you who is beating the sail lofts of America in an effort to secure a new suit of sails that will wring an extra 1/2 knot out of Hanalei next summer? Such an inordinate preoccupation with speed is hardly the mark of the true cruiser. Alas, this gambit is doomed to failure. Many NE Fleet captains are acutely aware of your endless attempts at subterfuge!

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27





Setsail728@aol.com

[Clay Stalker]

Captain Stump,
Nobody has managed to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge or any swamp land in Florida (yet). You never miss an opportunity to brandish "CDSOA #1" on all communications eminating from eastern Connecticut and yet you expect us to swallow a mea culpa, "I am a cruiser!" Tell me, Cruising Pirate Captain Stump, is it not you who is beating the sail lofts of America in an effort to secure a new suit of sails that will wring an extra 1/2 knot out of Hanalei next summer? Such an inordinate preoccupation with speed is hardly the mark of the true cruiser. Alas, this gambit is doomed to failure. Many NE Fleet captains are acutely aware of your endless attempts at subterfuge!

Warren Kaplan
Sine Qua Non
CD27

WOW! That must have been some race last summer...A race won by a cruiser who isn't a racer but races in a cruising boat...I'm totally confused...I may have to join this race next summer...

Clay Stalker



cstalker@cheshire.net

[Ed Haley]

You guys at it again? Some of those on this board may actually hear this raucous bravado pass over their roofs not knowing from whence the noise came. We should keep these people informed what's happening.

The commotion involves the "Almost Big Cape Dory Event For Getting Hanalei In Jabberwocky Knowing Lordly Macht Nichts' Overrated PHRF Quashes Realistic Sailors Thoughts of Unrivaled Victory With Xtreme Yelling & Zeal," not to mention the water balloons.

This CD race tends to be full of fun but there are certainly high expectations from a few future participants, as you read before this post. And you'll read them in future editions. Until next summer. Things will be quiet after I win. But enough of that.

Ed Haley, Captain
CD330 "Mokita"



eghaley@twcny.rr.com

[Ed Haley]

Rumour has it that when Captain Stump's wife isn't aboard, even his dinghy "Puff" beats him to the mark!!!!!

I'll bet you, Clay, you'll have an even shot with one sail tied behind the forestay!

Ed Haley, Captain
CD330 "Mokita"



eghaley@twcny.rr.com

[Hanalei]

Esteemed Captain Kaplan,

Truthfully Sir, the new sails are only being acquired to replace the old and somewhat tired original Ulmer sails on Hanalei. I have managed to rip the main twice (2X!)in the 4 years I have owned her,(must I note that I did this while beatin' hard to weather in pursuit of an ENEMY!) and although the sail loft has done an excellent job of repair, the cloth will rip with hand pressure! The loft Mistress (Katie Beale of North Sails in Noank, CT)has informed that this situation is NOT good! Hence, the search for new cloth for Hanalei. Naw, really, all ya true and hearty souls, believe it when I tell you I am a "Cruiser"......honored Sir, I remain......Your most HUMBLE servant......

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD_30C
CDSOA #1

P.S. All Captains take note: Keep an eye on the web site for something new considering the title "CDSOA #1"

[Hanalei]

Captain Haley,

Now, I will be the first to admit that my bride of 6 months and 24 days is really fantastic, but she is NOT that good! The win of last years race was in fact a fluke! I just chose the right COURSE and benefitted by that decision. One must sail ones' own course through life, and in this case the course chosen was the right one!

Discussion to continue......I remain......

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1

[len]

larry et al

it is also interesting to note that the CD31 has shrouds running from each side up to the mast where the inner stay attaches, a total of 4 shrouds on each side but the CD30, i believe, only has 3 shrounds on each side - under extreme conditions, e.g. with a storm sail on the inner stay, the CD31 rig is stronger

len



md.frel@nwh.org

[Larry DeMers]

Clay,

You have discovered the beauty of a large foresail on the Cape Dory hull. It drives the CD's beautifully. We use a 140% genoa on the roller/furler and wouldn't trade that for anything.

I also have the yankee, and did try it the first year while waiting for the furler replacement (Hood 810LD) to arrive. I was unimpressed with the acceleration, although I think we got up to speed eventually, that would be equivalent to the genoas speed. Off wind is another story entirely. The genoa will have far more drive than the yankee off wind I believe and a higher top end speed (have not tested it but it seems to make sense).

We also use the winch drum as a belaying point, while tensioning the genoas sheet..but rarely take a winch handle to it, as I can horse it tight enough for our interests.

....but should Captain Dave #1 come on by, I would be rapidly affixing said handle to the winch, readying all deck cannon and sending the women below for protection from flying bits of teak! (naahhh, I would just beat him to the next anchorage, and be the first to pour a dram of good scotch to toast his late arrival..hee).

Time to get home for the day..

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

Captain Stalker,

Two things, if the Yankee is normal sized, ie. hasn't been changed out for a 150 or bigger genoa, it will go through the slot just fine. I have NEVER reefed it just to tack, that seems like a lot of work! Second, as for winches, remember, we are "Cruisers" (Oh Boy, I'll take a beatin' for this!)not racers and winches are not required on a cruising cutter. They are there because they look "Shippy". Need to trim a sheet, head up and luff, and you can trim even the largest sail BY HAND!

FWIW.....your most HUMBLE servant.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1

Esteemed Captain Stump:

I am in agreement that we don't need winches to tack our craft, but I fly a 135 genny on a Harken furler and there are times that I am darned glad I have my big bronze Lewmars...I rarely use a winch handle however, but I like the winches. The 135 also provides a lot of drive that I don't get with the main. Some on this board have thought I was crazy when describing some rides I have taken in the 6.5 knot range in my little 27, but the bit headsail makes a huge difference in power that I can't imagine is available with two smaller headsails...Just my 2 cents again...

Clay Stalker
(hanging from winches on the hard....)

demers@sgi.com

[Michael Heintz]

Things may indeed be quiet, after the winner of next year's cup race, but alas it is a long winter, of nothing to do but dream of victory, and harass my brother capatins on this board !!!

Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
The Overrated PHRF
Racing Sloop (the only true CD 30 Sloop)
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II



Mzenith@aol.com

[Richard Formica]

I have read of converting the CD30 cutter to a sloop rig. How is this done and what are the advantages?

I have a break away inner forestay on my 36. It is rigged with a turnbuckle at the base that has folding handles. The connection to the deck is with a 3/8 inch fast pin. To take down the forestay, I fold out the handles, hold the top still to prevent the stay from twisting, turn the bottom a few times to loosen it and pull the fast pin. Now with the stay loose I bring it back toward the mast. Attach to the eye pad the the stays'l sheet attaches to is a curved piece of stainless steel pipe with a longitudinal slice in it. This allows me to lay the stay in it and it turns the stay away from the mast. Finally there is a loop around the forward end of the cabintop hand rail. I pull the stay tight and re engage the fast pin to capture the loop. Total time 2 minutes max. I personally would never give up the cutter option. I find in the spring and fall on Long Island sound, a stays'l/main combination is perfect. In the summer I use a large genoa and then it is nice to have the forestay out of the way

rich

[Mike Thorpe]

Captain Haley,

It may be that course selection was the deciding factor in that race but, as I understand it, the course selection was made by the Admiral not the Captain Commanding.

Additionally, I'm not suprized that "Puff" has pulled beat the Captain Commanding to the the first mark. Rumor also has it that on one of Captain Stumps single handing expeditions a bar of soap, inadvertaintly dropped overboard, also beat the good Captain to the first mark.

Captain Thorpe
Journey's End
The true #1

Captain Haley,

Now, I will be the first to admit that my bride of 6 months and 24 days is really fantastic, but she is NOT that good! The win of last years race was in fact a fluke! I just chose the right COURSE and benefitted by that decision. One must sail ones' own course through life, and in this case the course chosen was the right one!

Discussion to continue......I remain......

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1

mthorpe@capecod.net