I have read of converting the CD30 cutter to a sloop rig. How is this done and what are the advantages?
hmiller@neosoft.com
CD30 cutter to sloop?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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Joe Sankey
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
I'll jump in here, although much exists in the archives. I also want to tell you up front that our CD 30 is still a cutter. However, that may be temporary. We have also owned a CD28 on which we installed a roller furling 155% genoa after removing the boom. Larger headsails perform better in light air(most of the time), and removing the boom rids the foredeck of clutter, of sorts. I anticipate the advantages to be: less clutter on the foredeck; ease of handling the boat (one potential gain is to use some of the existing staysail hardware/space to run halyards, etc. aft), ease of reducing sail, ease of tacking. Trade-offs, of course, are: lack of staysail arrangement for easing tacking without a headsail; assuming you already have roller reefing/furling on your yankee (we don't yet), perhaps a trade off in performance of the staysail along vs. a reefed genoa. Let us know what you do; we're still working on the same issue. There are also peripheral issues, including: how do you define clutter, and why? I have my own gremlins to deal with, yours may be different. Good luck.
Joe Sankey
CD 30 Slow Dance
sankey@gulftel.com
Joe Sankey
CD 30 Slow Dance
Skip Miller wrote: I have read of converting the CD30 cutter to a sloop rig. How is this done and what are the advantages?
sankey@gulftel.com
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Ed Haley
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
The conversion to a singled headed sailing sloop was a preference of mine on my CD330, which was designed as a double headed sloop. I also removed the staysail from my previous CD28. Like Joe indicated, there are advantages to both setups and you have to decide which one you prefer. Having sailed with a roller furled genoa (both 130 and 150) I can tell you that a CD sails fast and eagerly with the staysail removed. You'll really be surprised how fast she sails with proper sail trim. I plan to use the yankee on my CD330 as a reefed 130.
There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.
Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.
Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
Ed,
I have to chime in here with a defense of the cutter rig apparently.
Why do you say that the CD30 is not a true cutter? She was designed from scratch as a cutter as far as all the reading I have done goes. So where does the design fall short of "cutter" status in your book, especially since there were no sloop rigged cutters produced at the CD factory as far as I know (ie: they were not just converted as a sales gimick).
Reason I ask is that usually the sloop converted cutter has a problem with sail balancing due to the mast position being too far back..as the mast is moved forward a bit with the cutter rigs. So how can you even compare it to determine where the sloop rigs mast should be??
I like the utility of the cutter rig in high wind management. Get past the point where the genoa is of use, and in a cutter with reefed main and staysail only, the boat settles down, stands up, and loses it's heavy weather helm (due to the high winds and large sail area being reduced), giving a more pleasant motion and a happier boat that stays at about the same or possibly higher speed.
With a sloop rig, you are stuck aren't you? All that you have left to do is hank on successively smaller sails to balance the reefed main. Note that during each of these sail changes you are forced out to the bow of the boat again and again. That is dangerous in the winds and waves one would expect during this kind of weather.
The advantage of the cutter comes into play here too. The sail area is now concentrated down lower and toward the center of the boat, away from the bow. This is perfect for these conditions.
I respectfully disagree that the sloop rig is a better rig for the CD30, or any cruising boat in fact..and certainly the CD30. I think that people find the narrow slot that the genoa is tacked thru to be the challenge with the staysail in place. We have 12 years, and 17,000 miles with this cuttter rig, and honestly, tacking the boat is just another thing we do..it is not a problem once you work out a way to do it gracefully. We tack at the same rate and manner as any other sloop would tack. We use the winds action on the genoa to help power the sail thru the slot, and I have described this process numerous times previously so will not bore everyone with that again.
I find that peoples frustration with the slot and having to roll the genoa in and unroll it again sort of pushes them into accepting the boat as a sloop rig. That is their compromise I guess, but it throws away the benefits of the cutter rig.
I have added an adjustable outhaul and reefing to my staysail, and now have the ability to tune that sail finely, giving us another 1/2 kt in speed along with faster acceleration in puffs.
To be honest..converting the cutter to sloop rig seems to be a poor compromise to me.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lac Superior'
demers@sgi.com
I have to chime in here with a defense of the cutter rig apparently.
Why do you say that the CD30 is not a true cutter? She was designed from scratch as a cutter as far as all the reading I have done goes. So where does the design fall short of "cutter" status in your book, especially since there were no sloop rigged cutters produced at the CD factory as far as I know (ie: they were not just converted as a sales gimick).
Reason I ask is that usually the sloop converted cutter has a problem with sail balancing due to the mast position being too far back..as the mast is moved forward a bit with the cutter rigs. So how can you even compare it to determine where the sloop rigs mast should be??
I like the utility of the cutter rig in high wind management. Get past the point where the genoa is of use, and in a cutter with reefed main and staysail only, the boat settles down, stands up, and loses it's heavy weather helm (due to the high winds and large sail area being reduced), giving a more pleasant motion and a happier boat that stays at about the same or possibly higher speed.
With a sloop rig, you are stuck aren't you? All that you have left to do is hank on successively smaller sails to balance the reefed main. Note that during each of these sail changes you are forced out to the bow of the boat again and again. That is dangerous in the winds and waves one would expect during this kind of weather.
The advantage of the cutter comes into play here too. The sail area is now concentrated down lower and toward the center of the boat, away from the bow. This is perfect for these conditions.
I respectfully disagree that the sloop rig is a better rig for the CD30, or any cruising boat in fact..and certainly the CD30. I think that people find the narrow slot that the genoa is tacked thru to be the challenge with the staysail in place. We have 12 years, and 17,000 miles with this cuttter rig, and honestly, tacking the boat is just another thing we do..it is not a problem once you work out a way to do it gracefully. We tack at the same rate and manner as any other sloop would tack. We use the winds action on the genoa to help power the sail thru the slot, and I have described this process numerous times previously so will not bore everyone with that again.
I find that peoples frustration with the slot and having to roll the genoa in and unroll it again sort of pushes them into accepting the boat as a sloop rig. That is their compromise I guess, but it throws away the benefits of the cutter rig.
I have added an adjustable outhaul and reefing to my staysail, and now have the ability to tune that sail finely, giving us another 1/2 kt in speed along with faster acceleration in puffs.
To be honest..converting the cutter to sloop rig seems to be a poor compromise to me.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lac Superior'
Ed Haley wrote: The conversion to a singled headed sailing sloop was a preference of mine on my CD330, which was designed as a double headed sloop. I also removed the staysail from my previous CD28. Like Joe indicated, there are advantages to both setups and you have to decide which one you prefer. Having sailed with a roller furled genoa (both 130 and 150) I can tell you that a CD sails fast and eagerly with the staysail removed. You'll really be surprised how fast she sails with proper sail trim. I plan to use the yankee on my CD330 as a reefed 130.
There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.
Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.
demers@sgi.com
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: I agree........
Ed,
I agree with everything Larry discusses. A cutter rig is NOT inherently bad, in fact it is more verseital than a sloop.
Dave Stump, Hanalei
I agree with everything Larry discusses. A cutter rig is NOT inherently bad, in fact it is more verseital than a sloop.
Dave Stump, Hanalei
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Bill
Re: I agree........
Hello to All
Just a quick question. Will a cutter point as high as a sloop?
Thanks
Bill
cd25d@rhapsodysails.com
Just a quick question. Will a cutter point as high as a sloop?
Thanks
Bill
D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Ed,
I agree with everything Larry discusses. A cutter rig is NOT inherently bad, in fact it is more verseital than a sloop.
Dave Stump, Hanalei
cd25d@rhapsodysails.com
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Clay Stalker
Re: I agree........
What about those of us who almost exclusively sail our boats single-handed? I don't have any experience with a cutter, but agree that it must be more versatile. However, the tacking that Larry describes seems like it would keep a single-hander darned busy...rolling up the larger sail and making sure it goes through the slot as well as working winches etc. With the tiller and genoa on my CD27, tacking is a busy ordeal, with the tiller held steady between my legs and grinding winches with my hands....Just wondering how the cutter folks do single-handed. Thanks.D. Stump, Hanalei wrote: Ed,
I agree with everything Larry discusses. A cutter rig is NOT inherently bad, in fact it is more verseital than a sloop.
Dave Stump, Hanalei
Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
cstalker@cheshire.net
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Stan W.
Pointing
According to all the experts I have encountered, all other things being equal, the fewer sails you have, the higher you can point. Thus, in theory, the answer is no. In practice, I wonder if the difference really is all that great.
smwheatley@capecod.net
smwheatley@capecod.net
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Hanalei
Re: Tacking
Captain Stalker,
Two things, if the Yankee is normal sized, ie. hasn't been changed out for a 150 or bigger genoa, it will go through the slot just fine. I have NEVER reefed it just to tack, that seems like a lot of work! Second, as for winches, remember, we are "Cruisers" (Oh Boy, I'll take a beatin' for this!)not racers and winches are not required on a cruising cutter. They are there because they look "Shippy". Need to trim a sheet, head up and luff, and you can trim even the largest sail BY HAND!
FWIW.....your most HUMBLE servant.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1
Two things, if the Yankee is normal sized, ie. hasn't been changed out for a 150 or bigger genoa, it will go through the slot just fine. I have NEVER reefed it just to tack, that seems like a lot of work! Second, as for winches, remember, we are "Cruisers" (Oh Boy, I'll take a beatin' for this!)not racers and winches are not required on a cruising cutter. They are there because they look "Shippy". Need to trim a sheet, head up and luff, and you can trim even the largest sail BY HAND!
FWIW.....your most HUMBLE servant.......
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30C
CDSOA #1
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sloopjohnl
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
Larry,
i always thought that in yacht design the mast for a cutter rig was further aft toward the center of the boat as compared to a sloop rig?
how does the cd30 mast position compare in relation to the boat as to say the cd27 sloop rig?
i love these discussions, as i hope they make my decision on moving up
to either the 27,28 or 30 easier!!
i always thought that in yacht design the mast for a cutter rig was further aft toward the center of the boat as compared to a sloop rig?
how does the cd30 mast position compare in relation to the boat as to say the cd27 sloop rig?
i love these discussions, as i hope they make my decision on moving up
to either the 27,28 or 30 easier!!
Larry DeMers wrote: Ed,
I have to chime in here with a defense of the cutter rig apparently.
Why do you say that the CD30 is not a true cutter? She was designed from scratch as a cutter as far as all the reading I have done goes. So where does the design fall short of "cutter" status in your book, especially since there were no sloop rigged cutters produced at the CD factory as far as I know (ie: they were not just converted as a sales gimick).
Reason I ask is that usually the sloop converted cutter has a problem with sail balancing due to the mast position being too far back..as the mast is moved forward a bit with the cutter rigs. So how can you even compare it to determine where the sloop rigs mast should be??
I like the utility of the cutter rig in high wind management. Get past the point where the genoa is of use, and in a cutter with reefed main and staysail only, the boat settles down, stands up, and loses it's heavy weather helm (due to the high winds and large sail area being reduced), giving a more pleasant motion and a happier boat that stays at about the same or possibly higher speed.
With a sloop rig, you are stuck aren't you? All that you have left to do is hank on successively smaller sails to balance the reefed main. Note that during each of these sail changes you are forced out to the bow of the boat again and again. That is dangerous in the winds and waves one would expect during this kind of weather.
The advantage of the cutter comes into play here too. The sail area is now concentrated down lower and toward the center of the boat, away from the bow. This is perfect for these conditions.
I respectfully disagree that the sloop rig is a better rig for the CD30, or any cruising boat in fact..and certainly the CD30. I think that people find the narrow slot that the genoa is tacked thru to be the challenge with the staysail in place. We have 12 years, and 17,000 miles with this cuttter rig, and honestly, tacking the boat is just another thing we do..it is not a problem once you work out a way to do it gracefully. We tack at the same rate and manner as any other sloop would tack. We use the winds action on the genoa to help power the sail thru the slot, and I have described this process numerous times previously so will not bore everyone with that again.
I find that peoples frustration with the slot and having to roll the genoa in and unroll it again sort of pushes them into accepting the boat as a sloop rig. That is their compromise I guess, but it throws away the benefits of the cutter rig.
I have added an adjustable outhaul and reefing to my staysail, and now have the ability to tune that sail finely, giving us another 1/2 kt in speed along with faster acceleration in puffs.
To be honest..converting the cutter to sloop rig seems to be a poor compromise to me.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lac Superior'
Ed Haley wrote: The conversion to a singled headed sailing sloop was a preference of mine on my CD330, which was designed as a double headed sloop. I also removed the staysail from my previous CD28. Like Joe indicated, there are advantages to both setups and you have to decide which one you prefer. Having sailed with a roller furled genoa (both 130 and 150) I can tell you that a CD sails fast and eagerly with the staysail removed. You'll really be surprised how fast she sails with proper sail trim. I plan to use the yankee on my CD330 as a reefed 130.
There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.
Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.
-
Michael Heintz
Remember...#1 IS NOT A RACER
CAPTAIN STUMP,
All right you did ask for it!!!!!
Is this the beginning of disclaimers for next years loss? Or is this just a deceitful campaign to lull us into complacency.
Oh, Captain Stump, to recall you in Block Island claiming your (rightful) win, to assert that YOU are NOT a RACER, goes against all that I have seen and heard since that race.
Fellow Dorians do not let Captain Stump fool you. He is a racer in a cruisers disguise.
I want to see him remove all his winches, and trim by hand only.
I remain yours, Sir, your most HUMBLE servant......
Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Racing Sloop
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II....... The only TRUE CD 30 sloop !!!!!!
and Yes this sloop can point the HE__ past the CD 30 Cutter
CDSOA # 2 ( Spinnaker division )
Mzenith@aol.com
All right you did ask for it!!!!!
Is this the beginning of disclaimers for next years loss? Or is this just a deceitful campaign to lull us into complacency.
Oh, Captain Stump, to recall you in Block Island claiming your (rightful) win, to assert that YOU are NOT a RACER, goes against all that I have seen and heard since that race.
Fellow Dorians do not let Captain Stump fool you. He is a racer in a cruisers disguise.
I want to see him remove all his winches, and trim by hand only.
I remain yours, Sir, your most HUMBLE servant......
Michael Heintz
Captain Commanding
Racing Sloop
Macht Nichts CD 30 MK II....... The only TRUE CD 30 sloop !!!!!!
and Yes this sloop can point the HE__ past the CD 30 Cutter
CDSOA # 2 ( Spinnaker division )
Mzenith@aol.com
-
len
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
skip
i have seen in some magazines, ? offshore navigator, articles about having the staysail stay end in a pelican hook so that it can be easily taken down to clear the foredeck, e.g. when anchored for extended periods
personally, i think the advantages of the cutter rig greatly outweigh the minor inconveniences - the only serious disadvantage of the cutter rig, having to go foreward to raise/lower/change the sail, can be overcome by having it on a roller furler (you can still keep the club boom)
i also think the advantages of a yankee greatly outweigh the disadvantages of a huge 150 genoa -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
i have seen in some magazines, ? offshore navigator, articles about having the staysail stay end in a pelican hook so that it can be easily taken down to clear the foredeck, e.g. when anchored for extended periods
personally, i think the advantages of the cutter rig greatly outweigh the minor inconveniences - the only serious disadvantage of the cutter rig, having to go foreward to raise/lower/change the sail, can be overcome by having it on a roller furler (you can still keep the club boom)
i also think the advantages of a yankee greatly outweigh the disadvantages of a huge 150 genoa -
len
md.frel@nwh.org
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Don Carr
Pointing
Pointing is a function of boat design and sheeting angles. On the Nelson/Marek 41 (racer) we use a 'tall boy' stays'l and we still can point about 15/20 degrees off. Technically the sloop/cutter should point about the same, unless you are trimming a big genny where the lead tracks aren't exactly inboard. I agree with Capt Stump, normal Yankee/Stays'l configuration will alow the sloop and cutter to pint about the same.
The big differnce is in a seaway with Yankee/Stays'l rig you get some additional stability and some weather helm relief in higher winds.
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
The big differnce is in a seaway with Yankee/Stays'l rig you get some additional stability and some weather helm relief in higher winds.
IMHO
carrds@us.ibm.com
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Ed Haley
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop?
Thanks, Larry for your feedback. I used to wonder about it just as did Skip a while ago. Why do they call some of the rigged Cape Dorys "cutters" when the mast is so far forward. By definition, cutters have the mast designed in the center of the boat (50% aft of the headstay attachment at the bow, if you will).
I looked at all the designs of the Cape Dorys in the Registry and did an analysis of the distance aft of the headstay attachment on deck that the mast was positioned. I'd say that with an accuracy within 1%, the mast was designed 41 to 42% aft of the headstay attachment, whether you're talking about a sloop or cutter (I didn't look at ketches). So I questioned whether, in fact, the so-called cutters were actually cutters. In my way of thinking, the position of the mast on Cape Dorys indicated that they're actually sloops!
So I wrote Dave Perry at Robinhood Marine to pose the question to him that Skip presented on this board. I asked Perry if it made a difference whether you sailed a cutter as a sloop or viceversa. I also mentioned that I preferred to sail as a sloop since I have better performance, IMHO.
Dave's response:
Ed,
You are correct . A true cutter rig places the mast about 50% aft of the headstay, whereas a sloop's mast is further forward. And there maybe no "rule" that says a cutter has to have two jibs, it's just that they usually do. Thus Cape Dory Cutters are really double headsail rigged sloops. If you want to make a Cape Dory really perform just remove the staysail and set a nic 130-150% jib!
Dave Perry
I also agree with you about the versatility of the cutter-rigged CD. It is better for cruising and I do so on long trips. However, when participating in fun races, I sail as a sloop and get superb performance. When using spinnakers, gennakers, drifters or bloopers, the staysail merely gets in the way as does the club.
I may not be classified as a "racer" but I'm not alone in "tweaking" my sails to catch up with the guy in front. I think we sailors have that in common. All this futzing and trimming is what takes our minds off other things. It may not be easy at times but it sure takes a load off your mind!!! IMHO, of course!
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
I looked at all the designs of the Cape Dorys in the Registry and did an analysis of the distance aft of the headstay attachment on deck that the mast was positioned. I'd say that with an accuracy within 1%, the mast was designed 41 to 42% aft of the headstay attachment, whether you're talking about a sloop or cutter (I didn't look at ketches). So I questioned whether, in fact, the so-called cutters were actually cutters. In my way of thinking, the position of the mast on Cape Dorys indicated that they're actually sloops!
So I wrote Dave Perry at Robinhood Marine to pose the question to him that Skip presented on this board. I asked Perry if it made a difference whether you sailed a cutter as a sloop or viceversa. I also mentioned that I preferred to sail as a sloop since I have better performance, IMHO.
Dave's response:
Ed,
You are correct . A true cutter rig places the mast about 50% aft of the headstay, whereas a sloop's mast is further forward. And there maybe no "rule" that says a cutter has to have two jibs, it's just that they usually do. Thus Cape Dory Cutters are really double headsail rigged sloops. If you want to make a Cape Dory really perform just remove the staysail and set a nic 130-150% jib!
Dave Perry
I also agree with you about the versatility of the cutter-rigged CD. It is better for cruising and I do so on long trips. However, when participating in fun races, I sail as a sloop and get superb performance. When using spinnakers, gennakers, drifters or bloopers, the staysail merely gets in the way as does the club.
I may not be classified as a "racer" but I'm not alone in "tweaking" my sails to catch up with the guy in front. I think we sailors have that in common. All this futzing and trimming is what takes our minds off other things. It may not be easy at times but it sure takes a load off your mind!!! IMHO, of course!
eghaley@twcny.rr.com
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Larry DeMers
Re: CD30 cutter to sloop? Here is our tacking trick..
Working it backwards:
The cutter rig has the sail area divided up into smaller segments as you are dividing the required sail area by 3 instead of 2. So, that would say that your 100% foresail would be smaller with a cutter rig since there is also the staysail area in the foretriangle to be included in the total sail area forward of the mast.
Ok, then if the foresail is smaller, and the sail is a 100% genny, it's clew comes up to but not past the mast. To do this, the mast must move forward a bit to balance out the additional drive that the staysail gives us. On some cutters, the boom is lengthened, and the mainsail is made slightly longer on the lower half.
So I believe that the cutter rigs do move the mast forward.
Tacking our 140% genoa thru the slot is not that much work..it's timing and a bit of wind power..my wife does it a lot of the time actually. She is the one that came up with the air assisted tack idea that we use, and it cuts the "work" in half. I can describe it again, as it *does* make tacking faster and easier...and is second nature to do now. Since tacking large genoas is a sticking point for some about cutters, this may help.
As we get ready to tack (this works single handed also..I do it a lot), and the signal "Hard Alee" is given by the helmsman, the boat starts rounding up into the wind. AS the pressure is taken off the genoa, the 'sheeter' will roll in the genny about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way..quickly as convenient. The boat should be brought around thru the wind now, and as you do, the 'sheeter' should let out the genoa as fast as they can. This forms a large pocket of sail that does go through the slot and it fills with wind, pulling the remaining 1/2 to 2/3 sail not rolled in through the slot. Just pullin on the 'new' sheet, and you are off and sailing happy as ever.
We regularly sail with folks in C&C30's and 34's, and those puppies are fast, and can tack rediculously fast. Now honestly, we are not as fast tacking as they are..but we are no more than 10-15 sec. slower, and that is not bad. This method spees up the process of tacking, takes about 1/2 the work out of it, and is kinda neat to do actually.
Once the wind gets up a bit..10 kts and higher, the genoa slides thru on her own with no problem. So don't sweat that staysail slot. I tis not the big pain that some say it is. They just have not worked with it much and don't know the tricks to get it to tack fast. The utility of the cutter rig is so high, that I cannot imagine ever getting rid of the staysail. That would compromise the safety of the boat in higher winds..
Larry
demers@sgi.com
The cutter rig has the sail area divided up into smaller segments as you are dividing the required sail area by 3 instead of 2. So, that would say that your 100% foresail would be smaller with a cutter rig since there is also the staysail area in the foretriangle to be included in the total sail area forward of the mast.
Ok, then if the foresail is smaller, and the sail is a 100% genny, it's clew comes up to but not past the mast. To do this, the mast must move forward a bit to balance out the additional drive that the staysail gives us. On some cutters, the boom is lengthened, and the mainsail is made slightly longer on the lower half.
So I believe that the cutter rigs do move the mast forward.
Tacking our 140% genoa thru the slot is not that much work..it's timing and a bit of wind power..my wife does it a lot of the time actually. She is the one that came up with the air assisted tack idea that we use, and it cuts the "work" in half. I can describe it again, as it *does* make tacking faster and easier...and is second nature to do now. Since tacking large genoas is a sticking point for some about cutters, this may help.
As we get ready to tack (this works single handed also..I do it a lot), and the signal "Hard Alee" is given by the helmsman, the boat starts rounding up into the wind. AS the pressure is taken off the genoa, the 'sheeter' will roll in the genny about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way..quickly as convenient. The boat should be brought around thru the wind now, and as you do, the 'sheeter' should let out the genoa as fast as they can. This forms a large pocket of sail that does go through the slot and it fills with wind, pulling the remaining 1/2 to 2/3 sail not rolled in through the slot. Just pullin on the 'new' sheet, and you are off and sailing happy as ever.
We regularly sail with folks in C&C30's and 34's, and those puppies are fast, and can tack rediculously fast. Now honestly, we are not as fast tacking as they are..but we are no more than 10-15 sec. slower, and that is not bad. This method spees up the process of tacking, takes about 1/2 the work out of it, and is kinda neat to do actually.
Once the wind gets up a bit..10 kts and higher, the genoa slides thru on her own with no problem. So don't sweat that staysail slot. I tis not the big pain that some say it is. They just have not worked with it much and don't know the tricks to get it to tack fast. The utility of the cutter rig is so high, that I cannot imagine ever getting rid of the staysail. That would compromise the safety of the boat in higher winds..
Larry
sloopjohnl wrote: Larry,
i always thought that in yacht design the mast for a cutter rig was further aft toward the center of the boat as compared to a sloop rig?
how does the cd30 mast position compare in relation to the boat as to say the cd27 sloop rig?
i love these discussions, as i hope they make my decision on moving up
to either the 27,28 or 30 easier!!
Larry DeMers wrote: Ed,
I have to chime in here with a defense of the cutter rig apparently.
Why do you say that the CD30 is not a true cutter? She was designed from scratch as a cutter as far as all the reading I have done goes. So where does the design fall short of "cutter" status in your book, especially since there were no sloop rigged cutters produced at the CD factory as far as I know (ie: they were not just converted as a sales gimick).
Reason I ask is that usually the sloop converted cutter has a problem with sail balancing due to the mast position being too far back..as the mast is moved forward a bit with the cutter rigs. So how can you even compare it to determine where the sloop rigs mast should be??
I like the utility of the cutter rig in high wind management. Get past the point where the genoa is of use, and in a cutter with reefed main and staysail only, the boat settles down, stands up, and loses it's heavy weather helm (due to the high winds and large sail area being reduced), giving a more pleasant motion and a happier boat that stays at about the same or possibly higher speed.
With a sloop rig, you are stuck aren't you? All that you have left to do is hank on successively smaller sails to balance the reefed main. Note that during each of these sail changes you are forced out to the bow of the boat again and again. That is dangerous in the winds and waves one would expect during this kind of weather.
The advantage of the cutter comes into play here too. The sail area is now concentrated down lower and toward the center of the boat, away from the bow. This is perfect for these conditions.
I respectfully disagree that the sloop rig is a better rig for the CD30, or any cruising boat in fact..and certainly the CD30. I think that people find the narrow slot that the genoa is tacked thru to be the challenge with the staysail in place. We have 12 years, and 17,000 miles with this cuttter rig, and honestly, tacking the boat is just another thing we do..it is not a problem once you work out a way to do it gracefully. We tack at the same rate and manner as any other sloop would tack. We use the winds action on the genoa to help power the sail thru the slot, and I have described this process numerous times previously so will not bore everyone with that again.
I find that peoples frustration with the slot and having to roll the genoa in and unroll it again sort of pushes them into accepting the boat as a sloop rig. That is their compromise I guess, but it throws away the benefits of the cutter rig.
I have added an adjustable outhaul and reefing to my staysail, and now have the ability to tune that sail finely, giving us another 1/2 kt in speed along with faster acceleration in puffs.
To be honest..converting the cutter to sloop rig seems to be a poor compromise to me.
Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lac Superior'
Larry DeMers wrote:Ed Haley wrote: The conversion to a singled headed sailing sloop was a preference of mine on my CD330, which was designed as a double headed sloop. I also removed the staysail from my previous CD28. Like Joe indicated, there are advantages to both setups and you have to decide which one you prefer. Having sailed with a roller furled genoa (both 130 and 150) I can tell you that a CD sails fast and eagerly with the staysail removed. You'll really be surprised how fast she sails with proper sail trim. I plan to use the yankee on my CD330 as a reefed 130.
There are a few ways to store a non-used staysail stay so that should you want to use it sometime it will be readily available. I like the method of securing it to a shroud near the chainplate and then lead the bottom of the stay forward where it is attached to a stanchion base.
Although some of the CDs were rigged as "cutters", they are not true cutters since the mast is positioned as a sloop. In any event, we can enjoy the benefits of both at times which says a lot about the versatility of the CD design.
demers@sgi.com