25D dilemma: go larger?

[Garrard Young]

I finally got the boat I've wanted for years; a 25D, in great shape (except for clean/paint I can do myself), from the original owner, never been in salt water, all original, well equiped.
I got the exact trailer I wanted: picked it up new at Triad in April and drove to Michigan to fetch my "new" boat.
The boat sat while I worked my tail off to get my tiny business ready to sell; then closed a deal last week which will allow wife and me to sail for 2/3 years after I get "Twocan" ready.
Got my sweet wife healthy again through an operation this summer.

What I thought was "THE PROBLEM"

My wife had some reservations about extended sailing, living aboard, and blue water so we got a book, CHANGING COURSE by Debra Ann Cantrell to read during her recovery. This was a very serious book. We didn't find it entertaining. It started out very dull/scholarly, but lead us to serious personal introspections and very enlightening discussions.

NOW, "THE REAL PROBLEM"

My wife thinks we need a larger boat!
I know some of you are laughing.
Yes, I think I would be laughing too if you had written this message.
But this is not a joke. We have some assets, but our finances are definitely limited. The boat will require modifications which will make us much more comfortable, but the investment could not be fully recovered if we sell the 25D later.
One modification could seriously affect re-sale possibilities. My wife loves to sew. She has a dream. Now it is my dream too. When we anchor in poor settlements in the Bahamas or along the East/Gulf coasts (We plan Carrabelle to PEI and back the first year, then the Bahamas and Caribbean) she is going to make pretty cotton print dresses for the little girls and shorts/bathing trunks for the boys. This dream is from her heart. We've been stockpiling the materials for two months; most will be boxed and ready to be forwarded to us as needed.
However, to do this, I'll need to provide for more electricity, an inverter, and alter the port bunk into a single seat with a three foot counter and ample storage underneath. These are major modifications and expenses, but with help from some capable friends, it can be accomplished. However, these changes were not in the original plan and were not a consideration when we bought the 25D.

It's easy to conclude that we need a larger boat, but not so clear when we look at all the factors. Here are a few major concerns (some reveal insights I accepted only after reading "The Book" and well after purchasing our boat):

1)The 25D is the perfect "non-commital" boat. Maybe we won't like living aboard or blue-water sailing. The 25D let's us try everything, but easily drop back to coastal vacations and even trailering to distant sailing opportunities (The Pacific NW, the Keys, New England, the Great Lakes or other fresh water lakes where I'd like to spend a week or six)

2) I'm a minimalist at heart. Size and complexity can add more problems AND expenses than I want to cope with. I'd pull the motor out if it weren't for my wife.

3) We're not big people and not accustomed to luxuries. I'm 5'7" and Faith (wife) is 5'1". We like to camp, but tent not RV. We've just moved up from a West Wight Potter 19, which we thoroughly enjoyed, but was much smaller than our 25D.

4) Money is a factor. Almost everything costs less on a smaller boat and storing a boat in your back yard is a whole lot cheaper than at marinas.

5) Most of our sailing will always (probably) be coastal/lake. Our favorite places are; the Gulf Coast, the Florida keys, Georgia's wild barrier islands, the Bahamas and U.S. fresh water lakes. The 42" draft is a big plus; less would be better but I don't want to give up the many plusses of a full keel. The easy sail handling and maneuvering are a big plus.

6) I JUST DON'T KNOW, but I think we'd have to go much larger and much more expensive for a significant difference in our comfort. This boat is just for the Two small people listed above and the 25D is very accommodating for a couple (the Starboard settee expands into a really comfortable double which I think is much more comfortable than the V-berths on most boats... even much larger boats). We find the galley adequate; the head is great and offers true privacy for grooming and even just relaxing. Storage is a problem, but I see lots of unused space to take advantage of.

7) THE BIG QUESTION; If we got a different boat what would we get? I am not a Cape Dory fanatic, but I really feel that they are very good boats and are exceptional values, and they reflect my sailing values (like seaworthy over fast and seakindly over commodius).
I don't think the CD 27 offers any special advantage over the 25D for just a couple and they share a motor that is Ok on the 25 but underpowered for the 27. The 28? Nice step up, but worth it? Move on up and by the time you reach the 33 you've definitely got a boat that we could live aboard for years, but you've definitely gone well beyond my finances and totally lost all the flexibility of the 25D.

I don't want to put a lot of time and most of my upgrade money into a boat that won't do the job especially if I end up making a 25D into something I can't sell, but I can't see a better course than to modify what I have and hope we're satisfied with it.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone whose already faced a similar dilemma.

Thank you.



gypsite@mindspring.com

[Clay Stalker]

I finally got the boat I've wanted for years; a 25D, in great shape (except for clean/paint I can do myself), from the original owner, never been in salt water, all original, well equiped.
I got the exact trailer I wanted: picked it up new at Triad in April and drove to Michigan to fetch my "new" boat.
The boat sat while I worked my tail off to get my tiny business ready to sell; then closed a deal last week which will allow wife and me to sail for 2/3 years after I get "Twocan" ready.
Got my sweet wife healthy again through an operation this summer.

What I thought was "THE PROBLEM"

My wife had some reservations about extended sailing, living aboard, and blue water so we got a book, CHANGING COURSE by Debra Ann Cantrell to read during her recovery. This was a very serious book. We didn't find it entertaining. It started out very dull/scholarly, but lead us to serious personal introspections and very enlightening discussions.

NOW, "THE REAL PROBLEM"

My wife thinks we need a larger boat!
I know some of you are laughing.
Yes, I think I would be laughing too if you had written this message.
But this is not a joke. We have some assets, but our finances are definitely limited. The boat will require modifications which will make us much more comfortable, but the investment could not be fully recovered if we sell the 25D later.
One modification could seriously affect re-sale possibilities. My wife loves to sew. She has a dream. Now it is my dream too. When we anchor in poor settlements in the Bahamas or along the East/Gulf coasts (We plan Carrabelle to PEI and back the first year, then the Bahamas and Caribbean) she is going to make pretty cotton print dresses for the little girls and shorts/bathing trunks for the boys. This dream is from her heart. We've been stockpiling the materials for two months; most will be boxed and ready to be forwarded to us as needed.
However, to do this, I'll need to provide for more electricity, an inverter, and alter the port bunk into a single seat with a three foot counter and ample storage underneath. These are major modifications and expenses, but with help from some capable friends, it can be accomplished. However, these changes were not in the original plan and were not a consideration when we bought the 25D.

It's easy to conclude that we need a larger boat, but not so clear when we look at all the factors. Here are a few major concerns (some reveal insights I accepted only after reading "The Book" and well after purchasing our boat):

1)The 25D is the perfect "non-commital" boat. Maybe we won't like living aboard or blue-water sailing. The 25D let's us try everything, but easily drop back to coastal vacations and even trailering to distant sailing opportunities (The Pacific NW, the Keys, New England, the Great Lakes or other fresh water lakes where I'd like to spend a week or six)

2) I'm a minimalist at heart. Size and complexity can add more problems AND expenses than I want to cope with. I'd pull the motor out if it weren't for my wife.

3) We're not big people and not accustomed to luxuries. I'm 5'7" and Faith (wife) is 5'1". We like to camp, but tent not RV. We've just moved up from a West Wight Potter 19, which we thoroughly enjoyed, but was much smaller than our 25D.

4) Money is a factor. Almost everything costs less on a smaller boat and storing a boat in your back yard is a whole lot cheaper than at marinas.

5) Most of our sailing will always (probably) be coastal/lake. Our favorite places are; the Gulf Coast, the Florida keys, Georgia's wild barrier islands, the Bahamas and U.S. fresh water lakes. The 42" draft is a big plus; less would be better but I don't want to give up the many plusses of a full keel. The easy sail handling and maneuvering are a big plus.

6) I JUST DON'T KNOW, but I think we'd have to go much larger and much more expensive for a significant difference in our comfort. This boat is just for the Two small people listed above and the 25D is very accommodating for a couple (the Starboard settee expands into a really comfortable double which I think is much more comfortable than the V-berths on most boats... even much larger boats). We find the galley adequate; the head is great and offers true privacy for grooming and even just relaxing. Storage is a problem, but I see lots of unused space to take advantage of.

7) THE BIG QUESTION; If we got a different boat what would we get? I am not a Cape Dory fanatic, but I really feel that they are very good boats and are exceptional values, and they reflect my sailing values (like seaworthy over fast and seakindly over commodius).
I don't think the CD 27 offers any special advantage over the 25D for just a couple and they share a motor that is Ok on the 25 but underpowered for the 27. The 28? Nice step up, but worth it? Move on up and by the time you reach the 33 you've definitely got a boat that we could live aboard for years, but you've definitely gone well beyond my finances and totally lost all the flexibility of the 25D.

I don't want to put a lot of time and most of my upgrade money into a boat that won't do the job especially if I end up making a 25D into something I can't sell, but I can't see a better course than to modify what I have and hope we're satisfied with it.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone whose already faced a similar dilemma.

Thank you.

Gerrard:

Sounds like you have made a good choice with the 25D for all the right reasons (you listed them). You can do everything you want with this boat and still keep things minimal. Personally, if I was in your situation, I would be looking at the 28 if I still wanted to keep it relatively simple. This boat has much more room and is more livable over the long term. As far as power goes, both the 27 and 28 came with optional larger engines....I have a 27 with a 13HP Yanmar which is plenty of power for this boat. I looked at 25Ds and liked them very much, but just wanted more room and knew I would find the 25D too small at some point. In retrospect, while very glad I chose a 27, at this point I would really appreciate a 30! Could still sail it alone and much more livable and seaworthy. And actually, not that much more complicated really. You won't go wrong with the 25D for what you want to do, and she will serve you well. I have just found that boats seem to get smaller over time, and the more time we spend on them, the more some creature comforts (like elbow room) become attractive. This stuff is just my opinion, of course, and most 25D owners will tell you that you will be fine, and they are perfectly correct. But if you're going offshore with any frequency, you should at least be on the 28...Again, just my 2 cents. Best of luck!!

Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol, Rhode Island



cstalker@cheshire.net

[Joel]

This doesn't really address your problem, but is a comment on part of your plan. When visiting Margerita Island, I met a couple who had retired to a 27 foot boat. They augmented their sailing kitty by doing sail and canvas repairs for other cruisers, a service for which they found a ready market, usually barter. I don't know if the sewing machine you'll be carrying could do this kind of work, but it's something to keep in mind, if only for yourself!



bondy_joel@hotmail.com

[Warren Kaplan]

Garrard,
They say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". I think the only way you are really going to know if the 25D will suffice for your plans is to try it out. Perhaps don't do the upgrades at the beginning. I think that even without the upgrades you had in mind, you could still probably tell how it would be with them after doing a season's sailing in the 25D. You made a statement that we all have to keep in mind. A larger boat is more expensive for EVERYTHING involved with it. We all sometimes need a reality check. If funds are limited, or a least perpetually tight, overextending to a larger more expensive to buy and maintain vessel can lead to misery and ruination. Boating lore always says that whatever boat a person is sailing is just an interim boat, until he buys his next (bigger) one. Everyone is always looking for that next boat. Many on this board have advised prospective buyers to buy the biggest boat they can afford. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But "afford", really afford, is the controlling word there. If you can't afford a larger boat, the issue, in my view, is moot. And remember this. If you find that the 25D is what you can "comfortably" afford, well, necessity is the mother of invention and you will be surprised what you can do with a smaller boat to make it fit the lifestyle you want. I didn't mean to wax philosophical on you here...but everyone knows that the costs of keeping our boats border on the ridiculous sometimes. So take out a sharp pencil, figure out the finances FIRST, then you'll have a good idea what to do.

Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 1980



Setsail728@aol.com

[Ray Worthington]

Like the other replies, I say, live with the 25D for a while and find out what you like and don't like. There are upgrades you can do to a 25D which will make it more livable. Put a shelf under the galley drawer, cut a vanity door under the head sink, there's space behind the water tank, under the cabin sole, and behind the engine panel, put shelves in one of the hanging lockers. In short, there's a lot you can do without reconfiguring the port berth yet. I'm dreaming of replacing the 1GM with a 2GM and will post it here if I ever do it. Best of luck to you. Halcyon #30. : : I finally got the boat I've wanted for years; a 25D, in great shape (except for clean/paint I can do myself), from the original owner, never been in salt water, all original, well equiped.

I got the exact trailer I wanted: picked it up new at Triad in April and drove to Michigan to fetch my "new" boat.
The boat sat while I worked my tail off to get my tiny business ready to sell; then closed a deal last week which will allow wife and me to sail for 2/3 years after I get "Twocan" ready.
Got my sweet wife healthy again through an operation this summer.

What I thought was "THE PROBLEM"

My wife had some reservations about extended sailing, living aboard, and blue water so we got a book, CHANGING COURSE by Debra Ann Cantrell to read during her recovery. This was a very serious book. We didn't find it entertaining. It started out very dull/scholarly, but lead us to serious personal introspections and very enlightening discussions.

NOW, "THE REAL PROBLEM"

My wife thinks we need a larger boat!
I know some of you are laughing.
Yes, I think I would be laughing too if you had written this message.
But this is not a joke. We have some assets, but our finances are definitely limited. The boat will require modifications which will make us much more comfortable, but the investment could not be fully recovered if we sell the 25D later.
One modification could seriously affect re-sale possibilities. My wife loves to sew. She has a dream. Now it is my dream too. When we anchor in poor settlements in the Bahamas or along the East/Gulf coasts (We plan Carrabelle to PEI and back the first year, then the Bahamas and Caribbean) she is going to make pretty cotton print dresses for the little girls and shorts/bathing trunks for the boys. This dream is from her heart. We've been stockpiling the materials for two months; most will be boxed and ready to be forwarded to us as needed.
However, to do this, I'll need to provide for more electricity, an inverter, and alter the port bunk into a single seat with a three foot counter and ample storage underneath. These are major modifications and expenses, but with help from some capable friends, it can be accomplished. However, these changes were not in the original plan and were not a consideration when we bought the 25D.

It's easy to conclude that we need a larger boat, but not so clear when we look at all the factors. Here are a few major concerns (some reveal insights I accepted only after reading "The Book" and well after purchasing our boat):

1)The 25D is the perfect "non-commital" boat. Maybe we won't like living aboard or blue-water sailing. The 25D let's us try everything, but easily drop back to coastal vacations and even trailering to distant sailing opportunities (The Pacific NW, the Keys, New England, the Great Lakes or other fresh water lakes where I'd like to spend a week or six)

2) I'm a minimalist at heart. Size and complexity can add more problems AND expenses than I want to cope with. I'd pull the motor out if it weren't for my wife.

3) We're not big people and not accustomed to luxuries. I'm 5'7" and Faith (wife) is 5'1". We like to camp, but tent not RV. We've just moved up from a West Wight Potter 19, which we thoroughly enjoyed, but was much smaller than our 25D.

4) Money is a factor. Almost everything costs less on a smaller boat and storing a boat in your back yard is a whole lot cheaper than at marinas.

5) Most of our sailing will always (probably) be coastal/lake. Our favorite places are; the Gulf Coast, the Florida keys, Georgia's wild barrier islands, the Bahamas and U.S. fresh water lakes. The 42" draft is a big plus; less would be better but I don't want to give up the many plusses of a full keel. The easy sail handling and maneuvering are a big plus.

6) I JUST DON'T KNOW, but I think we'd have to go much larger and much more expensive for a significant difference in our comfort. This boat is just for the Two small people listed above and the 25D is very accommodating for a couple (the Starboard settee expands into a really comfortable double which I think is much more comfortable than the V-berths on most boats... even much larger boats). We find the galley adequate; the head is great and offers true privacy for grooming and even just relaxing. Storage is a problem, but I see lots of unused space to take advantage of.

7) THE BIG QUESTION; If we got a different boat what would we get? I am not a Cape Dory fanatic, but I really feel that they are very good boats and are exceptional values, and they reflect my sailing values (like seaworthy over fast and seakindly over commodius).
I don't think the CD 27 offers any special advantage over the 25D for just a couple and they share a motor that is Ok on the 25 but underpowered for the 27. The 28? Nice step up, but worth it? Move on up and by the time you reach the 33 you've definitely got a boat that we could live aboard for years, but you've definitely gone well beyond my finances and totally lost all the flexibility of the 25D.

I don't want to put a lot of time and most of my upgrade money into a boat that won't do the job especially if I end up making a 25D into something I can't sell, but I can't see a better course than to modify what I have and hope we're satisfied with it.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone whose already faced a similar dilemma.

Thank you.

Gerrard:

Sounds like you have made a good choice with the 25D for all the right reasons (you listed them). You can do everything you want with this boat and still keep things minimal. Personally, if I was in your situation, I would be looking at the 28 if I still wanted to keep it relatively simple. This boat has much more room and is more livable over the long term. As far as power goes, both the 27 and 28 came with optional larger engines....I have a 27 with a 13HP Yanmar which is plenty of power for this boat. I looked at 25Ds and liked them very much, but just wanted more room and knew I would find the 25D too small at some point. In retrospect, while very glad I chose a 27, at this point I would really appreciate a 30! Could still sail it alone and much more livable and seaworthy. And actually, not that much more complicated really. You won't go wrong with the 25D for what you want to do, and she will serve you well. I have just found that boats seem to get smaller over time, and the more time we spend on them, the more some creature comforts (like elbow room) become attractive. This stuff is just my opinion, of course, and most 25D owners will tell you that you will be fine, and they are perfectly correct. But if you're going offshore with any frequency, you should at least be on the 28...Again, just my 2 cents. Best of luck!!

Clay Stalker
CD27 Salsa #247
Bristol, Rhode Island

acw@thebest.net