Winter Care Of Batteries At Home

[Warren Kaplan]

I know there was just a very large discussion of batteries on the PhD level and my knowledge of batteries might get me out of grammar school. I know some of you out there could use your on board power to light up a small city for a week. For me, 99% of my power goes to starting the engine and powering the knotmeter and depthfinder. Now and then a bilge pump and the VHF. Hardly ever a cabin light.
So, my intricate battery set up is composed of two DieHard marine batteries. Last year, the yard pulled my batteries and took care of them for the winter to the tune of 120 smackers. I have no complaints about what they did but the 120 bucks could be better used. I'd like to take the batteries home and take care of them myself. I have an automotive battery charger with both 2 and 6 amp settings. I know what everyone has been saying about automotive chargers but I figure that was more about standard recharging during the season. What I got out of the "PhD level" discussion is that I could put a voltmeter on my batteries during the winter and most likely about once a month I could put the charger on them, at the trickle charge 2 amp setting, and keep them in good shape over the winter. There wouldn't be any load on them so I guess you could call it a "maintenance charge". Any suggestions would be welcome. I would have no problem in going out and buying a marine type charger, but is it necessary for this type of winter charging only?

Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)



Setsail728@aol.com

[Duncan Maio]

Warren:

I use my batteries as you describe, and in the winter do exactly what you are proposing, except that I usually only get around to charging twice during the off season (in my case, that's mid-November to mid-March).

So far, I have four years of use out of a pair of group 24 batteries, and never had to hand-crank. I suppose the batteries might last longer with a fancy charger, but the automotive-type seems to do the job.

There was a string of posts a couple of weeks ago with all sorts of good info.

Duncan Maio
s/v Remedy
CD27 #37
Bristol, RI



mail@mysticmarine.net

[Larry DeMers]

Hi Warren,

I suppose that you are referring to my earlier stuff on batteries, charging etc. This topic does seem to get rather involved quickly..sorry if it became too technical, as that is the opposite of what was intended.

I can recommend this for your batteries. A. Leave them in place over winter, first topping up the individual cells, then charging them all until they read apporx. 13.6 V or so, then disconnect the negative ground leads from the battery itself. Clean the terminals and case with water and baking soda, then with water alone (be certain to keep this out of the battery cells themselves!). Cover the battery, and give it your blessings for the winter. In the spring, attach the battery charger to the cells and recharge. If those cells are in good shape, they will be self discharged down about 10-20% max. from my experience. This is well within the normal discharge range and should not cause problems delaying this recharge until spring time.
Those that can equalize the batteries, should get a couple cycles under way first, then EQ the cells.

If you do bring them home, then use the smallest trickle charger you have, and leave it on for a couple days a month max. More than this and you will be evaporating the water from the electrolyte and overcharging.

If deep discharge batteries are in good shape and their internal discharge rate is low, then there is no good reason at all for bringing them home with you..unless you really want to of course..;^).
Their high Specific Gravity (due to the fully charged state you put them in) will prevent them from freezing up..even at our -40+ below temps (I have that to look forward too? Am I nutz?!)

Cheers and have a fast winter!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 ~~~On the hard now, on Lake Superior~~~

I know there was just a very large discussion of batteries on the PhD level and my knowledge of batteries might get me out of grammar school. I know some of you out there could use your on board power to light up a small city for a week. For me, 99% of my power goes to starting the engine and powering the knotmeter and depthfinder. Now and then a bilge pump and the VHF. Hardly ever a cabin light.
So, my intricate battery set up is composed of two DieHard marine batteries. Last year, the yard pulled my batteries and took care of them for the winter to the tune of 120 smackers. I have no complaints about what they did but the 120 bucks could be better used. I'd like to take the batteries home and take care of them myself. I have an automotive battery charger with both 2 and 6 amp settings. I know what everyone has been saying about automotive chargers but I figure that was more about standard recharging during the season. What I got out of the "PhD level" discussion is that I could put a voltmeter on my batteries during the winter and most likely about once a month I could put the charger on them, at the trickle charge 2 amp setting, and keep them in good shape over the winter. There wouldn't be any load on them so I guess you could call it a "maintenance charge". Any suggestions would be welcome. I would have no problem in going out and buying a marine type charger, but is it necessary for this type of winter charging only?

Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)

demers@sgi.com

[Warren Kaplan]

Larry,
No need to apologize for your in depth treatise on batteries. It certainly wasn't too technical at all! I was a little "tongue-in-cheek" in my post because my type of sailing, so far, requires almost no electrical power while sailors who, for instance, take extended trips to out of the way places like Isle Royale, better pack plenty of their own power! If I was that sailor, I'd be sure to understand and do everything you said!

The idea of leaving the batteries on the boat for the winter is a tempting one. Alas, the boatyard won't allow it. Rules, you know. I smell the long arm of their insurance company in this. So, I'll cart them home. Actually, doing that will give me one more excuse to think about sailing during the winter. Who knows...I may decide to put a voltmeter on those battery terminals a couple of times a day!!
Thanks for the advice..as always!

Warren



Setsail728@aol.com

[Dennis Truett]

I don't want to take credit for this as I learned it here on the web site. Install a small timer on the trickel battery charger so it comes on for 15 minutes each day. its a good way to keep them fully charged with out evaporating the water.

Dennis Truett

Warren:

I use my batteries as you describe, and in the winter do exactly what you are proposing, except that I usually only get around to charging twice during the off season (in my case, that's mid-November to mid-March).

So far, I have four years of use out of a pair of group 24 batteries, and never had to hand-crank. I suppose the batteries might last longer with a fancy charger, but the automotive-type seems to do the job.

There was a string of posts a couple of weeks ago with all sorts of good info.

Duncan Maio
s/v Remedy
CD27 #37
Bristol, RI

[Lary DeMers]

Hi Warren,

Was up at the boat over the weekend, taking her out of the water, and stripping some of the gear off, and taking home winter project material..etc. It was a cool one, but the sun was warm. We managed to take DLM out one more time with only the genoa up (boomless no less...looked awful!), just before warming the engine and then winterizing her at the haul-out dock.

The summer is gone, true..but every day is a day closer to next springs fun. As you do, I also spend a lot of time looking at memories of our year past, make plans for the next year, and read, read, read.

Still..it sure would be nice to be able to just go and sit aboard for a day, so we will leave DLM in useable condition, by leaving the ladder on the cradle, the power cable connected to the boat, but coiled in the cockpit, and the cover setup to allow the starboard corner to be lifted without spending a day relashing the whole tarp. We also leave a 3 gallon water jug aboard so we don't forget to bring it up (we can get water from the marina owners home 100ft. away). We have a large supply of wood for the fireplace and coal for after the wood gets going. And an extension for the flue to get it clear of the tarp.
On and on..but the result is a little bit of summer magic, because once the fire gets going, and the boat warms up..and we settle down with a good book or some tunes, it is remarkably similar to summer time, being at anchor. Know what? The blood pressure drops percipitously..heh. The world looks different from there. I can almost handle it!!

So Warren, keep a bit of that boat around as you say..be it a battery that needs your attention occasionally, or a sewing project on some cushions or refinishing my salon table and legs as I am doing right off..It'll make the time pass faster, gets something constructive done, and keeps ya off the street!

Have a good winter,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

Larry,
No need to apologize for your in depth treatise on batteries. It certainly wasn't too technical at all! I was a little "tongue-in-cheek" in my post because my type of sailing, so far, requires almost no electrical power while sailors who, for instance, take extended trips to out of the way places like Isle Royale, better pack plenty of their own power! If I was that sailor, I'd be sure to understand and do everything you said!

The idea of leaving the batteries on the boat for the winter is a tempting one. Alas, the boatyard won't allow it. Rules, you know. I smell the long arm of their insurance company in this. So, I'll cart them home. Actually, doing that will give me one more excuse to think about sailing during the winter. Who knows...I may decide to put a voltmeter on those battery terminals a couple of times a day!!
Thanks for the advice..as always!

Warren

demers@sgi.com

[Larry DeMers]

Great Idea! Takes the car-charger objection down a notch or two.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers

s/v DeLaMer

I don't want to take credit for this as I learned it here on the web site. Install a small timer on the trickel battery charger so it comes on for 15 minutes each day. its a good way to keep them fully charged with out evaporating the water.

Dennis Truett

Warren:

I use my batteries as you describe, and in the winter do exactly what you are proposing, except that I usually only get around to charging twice during the off season (in my case, that's mid-November to mid-March).

So far, I have four years of use out of a pair of group 24 batteries, and never had to hand-crank. I suppose the batteries might last longer with a fancy charger, but the automotive-type seems to do the job.

There was a string of posts a couple of weeks ago with all sorts of good info.

Duncan Maio
s/v Remedy
CD27 #37
Bristol, RI

demers@gi.com

[Darin Bartram]

The only other advice that I've heard is that batteries should not be stored on a concrete floor, but should be put on wood boards. I don't know why. Ask a PhD if you want to know!

Darin

I know there was just a very large discussion of batteries on the PhD level and my knowledge of batteries might get me out of grammar school. I know some of you out there could use your on board power to light up a small city for a week. For me, 99% of my power goes to starting the engine and powering the knotmeter and depthfinder. Now and then a bilge pump and the VHF. Hardly ever a cabin light.
So, my intricate battery set up is composed of two DieHard marine batteries. Last year, the yard pulled my batteries and took care of them for the winter to the tune of 120 smackers. I have no complaints about what they did but the 120 bucks could be better used. I'd like to take the batteries home and take care of them myself. I have an automotive battery charger with both 2 and 6 amp settings. I know what everyone has been saying about automotive chargers but I figure that was more about standard recharging during the season. What I got out of the "PhD level" discussion is that I could put a voltmeter on my batteries during the winter and most likely about once a month I could put the charger on them, at the trickle charge 2 amp setting, and keep them in good shape over the winter. There wouldn't be any load on them so I guess you could call it a "maintenance charge". Any suggestions would be welcome. I would have no problem in going out and buying a marine type charger, but is it necessary for this type of winter charging only?

Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)

bartram@att.net

[Tom]

Click and Clack on NPR say that this is not necessary. Apparently in the early days of batteries the case was made of wood or metal which would allow them to discharge via the case to the ground. Since modern battery cases are made of rubber or plastic they provide insulation. Many people still do it, however, just like you see old timers driving around with their headlights on so the battery won't overcharge. Seems this was necessary in the days before voltage regulators. I'm not a PhD, I'm just real old.

The only other advice that I've heard is that batteries should not be stored on a concrete floor, but should be put on wood boards. I don't know why. Ask a PhD if you want to know!

Darin

I know there was just a very large discussion of batteries on the PhD level and my knowledge of batteries might get me out of grammar school. I know some of you out there could use your on board power to light up a small city for a week. For me, 99% of my power goes to starting the engine and powering the knotmeter and depthfinder. Now and then a bilge pump and the VHF. Hardly ever a cabin light.
So, my intricate battery set up is composed of two DieHard marine batteries. Last year, the yard pulled my batteries and took care of them for the winter to the tune of 120 smackers. I have no complaints about what they did but the 120 bucks could be better used. I'd like to take the batteries home and take care of them myself. I have an automotive battery charger with both 2 and 6 amp settings. I know what everyone has been saying about automotive chargers but I figure that was more about standard recharging during the season. What I got out of the "PhD level" discussion is that I could put a voltmeter on my batteries during the winter and most likely about once a month I could put the charger on them, at the trickle charge 2 amp setting, and keep them in good shape over the winter. There wouldn't be any load on them so I guess you could call it a "maintenance charge". Any suggestions would be welcome. I would have no problem in going out and buying a marine type charger, but is it necessary for this type of winter charging only?

Thanks,
Warren Kaplan
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27 #166 (1980)

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Matt Cawthorne]

Darrin,
I used to work at a battery research and development center. We had experts there on all types of batteries. I had heard of this problem and asked the PHD's who developed golf cart and industrial batteries if there was any reason why they should go bad if stored on cement. They all scratched their heads, and none could come up with a single reason.
By the same token, I believe that there is no reason to take batteries out of the boat for the winter. I think it is prudent to go down every once in a while and check the tarp, or for ice in the bilge or building up in the cockpit. Once there I put in a days work on something. The first order of business is to connect the electric and flip the charger on.

Matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[Mark Yashinsky]

I remember read (way back), that concrete has (and continues to have) a lot of moisture in it. Anything you attach to concrete (pressure treated lumber) has to be able to withstand this moisture. Also, the concrete has many salts in it from the materials used to make concrete. So, you have a highly conductive, self transportable battery discharge system. A slow system, but its there. All this is dependant on how damp it it is exactly where you store the batteries, w/ teh dryness of winter heat, damp from melting snow, vicinity to ice melters, etc.

[Larry DeMers]

Ok, cement may be full of salts and moisture..although "full of" is too strong a word here, me thinks. Now for the part that your message does not talk about..the battery case itself. Battery cases are *insolators*, not conductors of electricity, otherwise the battery wouldn't hold a charge, right? How then does the current flow from the negative post down to the concrete floor, through the 'salts and moisture' of the concrete floor, back up the battery case to the positive post?

The only way would be if the case itself were conductive. To be conductive, the case would have to be covered in dried battery acid, dried saltwater continuously up the sides, or contaminated in some other way.

A clean and well cared for battery will not increase it's own self discharge rate when stored on a cement floor. There is no path for the current to follow.

Now put that battery on cement and then over charge the darn thing for a couple weeks before disconnecting it from the charging source, and the case will have electrolyte evaporated all over the battery..and will conduct probably.

So that scenario would be what you are talking about I suppose. So the warning then should be to clean that battery case well before storing it away, and the discharge path will be interrupted, preventing the whole problem.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior

I remember read (way back), that concrete has (and continues to have) a lot of moisture in it. Anything you attach to concrete (pressure treated lumber) has to be able to withstand this moisture. Also, the concrete has many salts in it from the materials used to make concrete. So, you have a highly conductive, self transportable battery discharge system. A slow system, but its there. All this is dependant on how damp it it is exactly where you store the batteries, w/ teh dryness of winter heat, damp from melting snow, vicinity to ice melters, etc.

demers@sgi.com

[Ryan Langley]

Just my two cents to this conversation. Batteries that are placed on concrete floors APPEAR to have a faster discharge rate, though they do not discharge any faster than a battery on piece of wood or other insulation. The direct contact to the COLDER concrete floor is the cause and simply shows more discharge because of the colder temp of the battery (harmless). So it doesn't matter if their stored on the ground, but they do need to be kept charged for ultimate long life of the battery.

Ok, cement may be full of salts and moisture..although "full of" is too strong a word here, me thinks. Now for the part that your message does not talk about..the battery case itself. Battery cases are *insolators*, not conductors of electricity, otherwise the battery wouldn't hold a charge, right? How then does the current flow from the negative post down to the concrete floor, through the 'salts and moisture' of the concrete floor, back up the battery case to the positive post?

The only way would be if the case itself were conductive. To be conductive, the case would have to be covered in dried battery acid, dried saltwater continuously up the sides, or contaminated in some other way.

A clean and well cared for battery will not increase it's own self discharge rate when stored on a cement floor. There is no path for the current to follow.

Now put that battery on cement and then over charge the darn thing for a couple weeks before disconnecting it from the charging source, and the case will have electrolyte evaporated all over the battery..and will conduct probably.

So that scenario would be what you are talking about I suppose. So the warning then should be to clean that battery case well before storing it away, and the discharge path will be interrupted, preventing the whole problem.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior

I remember read (way back), that concrete has (and continues to have) a lot of moisture in it. Anything you attach to concrete (pressure treated lumber) has to be able to withstand this moisture. Also, the concrete has many salts in it from the materials used to make concrete. So, you have a highly conductive, self transportable battery discharge system. A slow system, but its there. All this is dependant on how damp it it is exactly where you store the batteries, w/ teh dryness of winter heat, damp from melting snow, vicinity to ice melters, etc.

ryanlangley@hotmail.com

[Mark Yashinsky]

Condensation, I believe. But this might be more of a problem w/ dirty cases (automotive use). Though, Ryan's comment about temp doesnt hold (water?) unless you were doing a cold crank test and drawing the battery down. You have auto batteries in sub-freezing temps and starting cars (us northerner have gotten the family wheels ready for winter, havent we?). I believe most of what I remember abou this, was discharging across the top from condesation or along the side and along the floor. This is OLD info and probably no longer applicable w/ the modern battery case materials and design.

Has anyone used these small battery maintaners that look like the low power wall transformers??? Suppose to clip them on and ("computer chip") it will maintain and cycle the battery over a long period. Not meant for recharging, just keeping the battery health and topped up when the battery is not used for a long period.

[Larry DeMers]

You may be very correct here. Though I seem to remember that the story about keeping the batteries off the floor was because it killed the battery?
A battery brought to a lower temp by a cold cement floor will loose a few hundred millivolts or maybe half a volt max. over time, due to the spg concentration changing due to temps. That does not constitute a discharged battery though, so I suspect that there was more to the story. Possibly it had to do with the battery case materials, battery efficiency, and damp floors..not of cement but earth (a far better conductor) combined. Even then, I have a hard time imagining this discharge path actually working.
Wouldn't it be ironic if this whole story is another urban legend that has gone on for 30 years or more? heh..

Larry

Just my two cents to this conversation. Batteries that are placed on concrete floors APPEAR to have a faster discharge rate, though they do not discharge any faster than a battery on piece of wood or other insulation. The direct contact to the COLDER concrete floor is the cause and simply shows more discharge because of the colder temp of the battery (harmless). So it doesn't matter if their stored on the ground, but they do need to be kept charged for ultimate long life of the battery.

Ok, cement may be full of salts and moisture..although "full of" is too strong a word here, me thinks. Now for the part that your message does not talk about..the battery case itself. Battery cases are *insolators*, not conductors of electricity, otherwise the battery wouldn't hold a charge, right? How then does the current flow from the negative post down to the concrete floor, through the 'salts and moisture' of the concrete floor, back up the battery case to the positive post?

The only way would be if the case itself were conductive. To be conductive, the case would have to be covered in dried battery acid, dried saltwater continuously up the sides, or contaminated in some other way.

A clean and well cared for battery will not increase it's own self discharge rate when stored on a cement floor. There is no path for the current to follow.

Now put that battery on cement and then over charge the darn thing for a couple weeks before disconnecting it from the charging source, and the case will have electrolyte evaporated all over the battery..and will conduct probably.

So that scenario would be what you are talking about I suppose. So the warning then should be to clean that battery case well before storing it away, and the discharge path will be interrupted, preventing the whole problem.

Cheers,

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior

I remember read (way back), that concrete has (and continues to have) a lot of moisture in it. Anything you attach to concrete (pressure treated lumber) has to be able to withstand this moisture. Also, the concrete has many salts in it from the materials used to make concrete. So, you have a highly conductive, self transportable battery discharge system. A slow system, but its there. All this is dependant on how damp it it is exactly where you store the batteries, w/ teh dryness of winter heat, damp from melting snow, vicinity to ice melters, etc.

demers@sgi.com