This weekend while running under steam (Universal M30) a lack of power in the face of oncoming seas was obvious. Engine speed was ~2000rpm resulting in 5.8kn (in flat water) speed would drop below 2kn and only recover speed at a slow rate. The prop was relatively barnacle free.
Could the transmission be slipping? How can I test, to be sure? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
Transmission Slipping?
Moderator: Jim Walsh
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zeida
Re: Transmission Slipping?
Mitch, I have the same Universal M30 engine on my CD-33, Bandolera.
Last year I had a similar experience to yours, although then, my engine stopped completely. She started loosing power and speed, until she stopped altogether. Had to anchor and wait for a tow back to the marina. After much checking, it was the tranny. We had to take it out and send to the shop. Many of the worn out gears had to be replaced. About 2 weeks later, she came back as if new. Have had other problems, but so far the transmission is still good and solid.
It cost me about $800 to have it fixed. But it's not an option, unfortunately. Good luck.
Zeida
zcecil@attglobal.net
Last year I had a similar experience to yours, although then, my engine stopped completely. She started loosing power and speed, until she stopped altogether. Had to anchor and wait for a tow back to the marina. After much checking, it was the tranny. We had to take it out and send to the shop. Many of the worn out gears had to be replaced. About 2 weeks later, she came back as if new. Have had other problems, but so far the transmission is still good and solid.
It cost me about $800 to have it fixed. But it's not an option, unfortunately. Good luck.
Zeida
zcecil@attglobal.net
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matt cawthorne
Photo tach.
Mitch,
If you have access to a photo tachometer tie the boat to the dock and put a pice of white tape on the flywheel and on the prop shaft coupling. Now run the engine at any convenient RPM with the transmission in gear. Use the photo tachometer to get the RPM of the engine and of the shaft. Does the ratio equal the ratio stamped on the transmission? If not the transmission is slipping. Do it again at high RPM to see what happens under heavy load.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
If you have access to a photo tachometer tie the boat to the dock and put a pice of white tape on the flywheel and on the prop shaft coupling. Now run the engine at any convenient RPM with the transmission in gear. Use the photo tachometer to get the RPM of the engine and of the shaft. Does the ratio equal the ratio stamped on the transmission? If not the transmission is slipping. Do it again at high RPM to see what happens under heavy load.
Matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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D. Stump, Hanalei
Re: Me thinks NO gears....
Zeida, Captain of Bandolera,
Not sure what the yard told you, but these types of transmissions don't usually have gears. I believe they are "plate" type transmissions. That is why you don't have to put in the clutch when you shift from neutral to forward or to reverse. It is also the reason the Hurst transmissions can be shifted from full throttle forward to full throttle reverse without damaging the tranny. It isn't recommended that you do that very often, but you can if absolutely necessary.
I had a transmission freeze up on my brothers' CD-30B. Turned out, the guy that was supposed to check the fluid level, at his yachit club, never did so, and it finally just seized up. Good reason to do things yourself, don't have anyone to blame then but yourself!
On Hanalei, the shaft coupling legs on the transmission output shaft broke off, well, only one did. It was probably gone when we bought her, but you would have to look real close to catch it. The bolts of the coupling loosened up, and finally the coupling failed. To replace that output shaft(the legs are forged to the shaft!)would have cost $800.00, and NOT guaranteed! A new Hurst transmission $1200.00! Guess what Hanalei has now! Yep, bought the new one, and everything is fine.
I don't know what the lifetime would be for one of these trannies, but, it must be a long time.. FWIW.....I remain....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
CDSOA "1"
Not sure what the yard told you, but these types of transmissions don't usually have gears. I believe they are "plate" type transmissions. That is why you don't have to put in the clutch when you shift from neutral to forward or to reverse. It is also the reason the Hurst transmissions can be shifted from full throttle forward to full throttle reverse without damaging the tranny. It isn't recommended that you do that very often, but you can if absolutely necessary.
I had a transmission freeze up on my brothers' CD-30B. Turned out, the guy that was supposed to check the fluid level, at his yachit club, never did so, and it finally just seized up. Good reason to do things yourself, don't have anyone to blame then but yourself!
On Hanalei, the shaft coupling legs on the transmission output shaft broke off, well, only one did. It was probably gone when we bought her, but you would have to look real close to catch it. The bolts of the coupling loosened up, and finally the coupling failed. To replace that output shaft(the legs are forged to the shaft!)would have cost $800.00, and NOT guaranteed! A new Hurst transmission $1200.00! Guess what Hanalei has now! Yep, bought the new one, and everything is fine.
I don't know what the lifetime would be for one of these trannies, but, it must be a long time.. FWIW.....I remain....
Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30
CDSOA "1"
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Tom
Re: Transmission Slipping?
Mitch, I put three transmissions in my boat in the space of two years before getting it figured out. Slipping is often the first sign of going bad, then it starts hopping out of gear. At first you can just shift it back in, then you have to hold it in, and finally it won't catch at all. Those are symptoms of the tranny going bad. It's the clutch plates that get glazed over and won't grab. There are gears in the tranny but you don't shift them and they usually don't wear out. The plates though do wear and the tranny people say that the directions in the Cape Dory manual are incorrect. You do not want to sail with the engine off and the gear shift lever in forward. This will glaze the plates.
If you just unbolt the current tranny and bolt on a new one you may have the same problem again in a few years. Many of the bell housings are not lined up with the engine block. Since the transmission is bolted to the engine from inside the bell housing you have to remove the engine to get the transmission off. While the engine is out have the mechanic check the alignment of the bellhousing. Five thousands is the outside tolerance and mine was over twenty thousands out and some tings were over 40 out. I had to drill out and re-pin the bell housing on mine.
If you discover it is the transmission and you decide to go for an exchange or have yours rebuilt write me as I may be able to save you some money and I can give you a lot more information on it and what the procedure is for aligning the bell housing. You also have to check the shaft of the transmission to the face of the tranny. Some trannys come out of spec from the rebuild shops. I had to machine a shim plate to bolt between my tranny and the bellhousing to square it up.
TomCambria@mindspring.com
If you just unbolt the current tranny and bolt on a new one you may have the same problem again in a few years. Many of the bell housings are not lined up with the engine block. Since the transmission is bolted to the engine from inside the bell housing you have to remove the engine to get the transmission off. While the engine is out have the mechanic check the alignment of the bellhousing. Five thousands is the outside tolerance and mine was over twenty thousands out and some tings were over 40 out. I had to drill out and re-pin the bell housing on mine.
If you discover it is the transmission and you decide to go for an exchange or have yours rebuilt write me as I may be able to save you some money and I can give you a lot more information on it and what the procedure is for aligning the bell housing. You also have to check the shaft of the transmission to the face of the tranny. Some trannys come out of spec from the rebuild shops. I had to machine a shim plate to bolt between my tranny and the bellhousing to square it up.
M. R. Bober wrote: This weekend while running under steam (Universal M30) a lack of power in the face of oncoming seas was obvious. Engine speed was ~2000rpm resulting in 5.8kn (in flat water) speed would drop below 2kn and only recover speed at a slow rate. The prop was relatively barnacle free.
Could the transmission be slipping? How can I test, to be sure? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
TomCambria@mindspring.com
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matt cawthorne
Re: Me thinks NO gears....
Dave,
I believe that you are correct that there are clutch plates in the transmissions, but there are gears. That is how they get a speed ratio across the transmission. Perhaps the gears are always in mesh and the clutch plates just allow one set or the other to be carrying power at any given time. I'll have to tear one apart one day and see.
matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
I believe that you are correct that there are clutch plates in the transmissions, but there are gears. That is how they get a speed ratio across the transmission. Perhaps the gears are always in mesh and the clutch plates just allow one set or the other to be carrying power at any given time. I'll have to tear one apart one day and see.
matt
mcawthor@bellatlantic.net
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John R.
Re: Me thinks NO gears....
Yeah I believe that is correct and some use cones, rather than plates, such as those like Renault, BMW and I think some others also.matt cawthorne wrote: Dave,
I believe that you are correct that there are clutch plates in the transmissions, but there are gears. That is how they get a speed ratio across the transmission. Perhaps the gears are always in mesh and the clutch plates just allow one set or the other to be carrying power at any given time. I'll have to tear one apart one day and see.
matt
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Don Sargeant
Re: Transmission Slipping?
Mitch,
For what it's worth. My old Folkboat had a PENTA (Volvo bought them after this engine was made) MD1. The transmission was a cone-type. The PUSH from the prop kept it engaged while going forward and the PULL kept it engaged while in reverse. Could the heavy seas have pushed back on the prop and compomised the pressure on the plates?
Don Sargeant
~~Coquina~~
For what it's worth. My old Folkboat had a PENTA (Volvo bought them after this engine was made) MD1. The transmission was a cone-type. The PUSH from the prop kept it engaged while going forward and the PULL kept it engaged while in reverse. Could the heavy seas have pushed back on the prop and compomised the pressure on the plates?
Don Sargeant
~~Coquina~~
M. R. Bober wrote: This weekend while running under steam (Universal M30) a lack of power in the face of oncoming seas was obvious. Engine speed was ~2000rpm resulting in 5.8kn (in flat water) speed would drop below 2kn and only recover speed at a slow rate. The prop was relatively barnacle free.
Could the transmission be slipping? How can I test, to be sure? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
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M. R. Bober
Re: Transmission Slipping?
I'm not certain that the seas were THAT heavy. I am checking (& replacing) the fluid tomorrow.
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330