po'd with my varnish results

[Craig]

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)



shavdog@aol.com

[matt cawthorne]

Craig,
Take a dry brush and "tip" over the surface. Just wipe the brush with so little pressure that it does not pick up any varnish. One pass should get all the bubbles. It is a common practice. BTW. Never put the brush in the can. Pour the varnish out of the can into a cup. Dip the brush in the cup and if you need to wipe the brush edge do it into a waste cup. Never pour the varnish back into the can. This will help keep dirt out of your clean varnish. you may waste some varnish, but you will be much happier with your job.

Matt



mcawthor@bellatlantic.net

[John R.]

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

It sounds to me like you are trapping air in the wood rather than introducing it with the application of the finish. Thinning the finish by the maximum permissible percentage would be the right thing to do. You don't mention if this is a waterbased polyurethane finish or not. If it is I'd switch to a traditional finish. You don't say what the sole was previously finished with or what it's condition was. It may be contaminated by something, very hard to say one way or the other. I would try wiping it down good a couple of times with acetone (be very careful of vapor build up inside the boat, ventilate well, don't use combustion sources like motor driven fans etc.), after the acetone evaporates completely try laying down a maximum thinned coat in a small area and see what happens. You might try a test area of a different finish and see if you get the same bubbles.

If you are thinning a non-water based product be absolutely sure you are using the thinner recommended by the manufacturer of the finish. Do not substitute for something else. Make sure you apply the finish in the proper temperature range stipulated by the manufacturer. Always use thin coats, don't try and flow on heavier coats to get quicker gloss results.

You might want to post more detailed info on the previous condition of the sole, the brush type you are using, the Minwax poly finish etc., then we may be able to offer additional remarks.

There are an awful lot of good finishes on the market today. It would be hard to pick a lousy one. Most are urethane or acrylic based. Good old Captains 1015 always will give a beautiful result if you like a traditional varnish. Epiphanes Woodfinish Gloss is a beautiful finish with no sanding between coats. My companionway steps are done with it. Sole will get it later. There is also Bristol Finish and Honey Teak. Bristol Finish is virtually clear. Interlux and Petite also both make some excellent finishes for the interior. Some folks use Gym Seal (I think that's the name), a commercial urethane finish.

There are also linear urethane finishes, extreme durability and gloss.

It's okay if you own a Hunter, they've served a lot of people well for their needs. I think most folks on this board are willing to help someone having a difficult time regardless of their current boat.

[John R.]

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

It sounds to me like you are trapping air in the wood rather than introducing it with the application of the finish. Thinning the finish by the maximum permissible percentage would be the right thing to do. You don't mention if this is a waterbased polyurethane finish or not. If it is I'd switch to a traditional finish. You don't say what the sole was previously finished with or what it's condition was. It may be contaminated by something, very hard to say one way or the other. I would try wiping it down good a couple of times with acetone (be very careful of vapor build up inside the boat, ventilate well, don't use combustion sources like motor driven fans etc.), after the acetone evaporates completely try laying down a maximum thinned coat in a small area and see what happens. You might try a test area of a different finish and see if you get the same bubbles.

If you are thinning a non-water based product be absolutely sure you are using the thinner recommended by the manufacturer of the finish. Do not substitute for something else. Make sure you apply the finish in the proper temperature range stipulated by the manufacturer. Always use thin coats, don't try and flow on heavier coats to get quicker gloss results.

You might want to post more detailed info on the previous condition of the sole, the brush type you are using, the Minwax poly finish etc., then we may be able to offer additional remarks.

There are an awful lot of good finishes on the market today. It would be hard to pick a lousy one. Most are urethane or acrylic based. Good old Captains 1015 always will give a beautiful result if you like a traditional varnish. Epiphanes Woodfinish Gloss is a beautiful finish with no sanding between coats. My companionway steps are done with it. Sole will get it later. There is also Bristol Finish and Honey Teak. Bristol Finish is virtually clear. Interlux and Petite also both make some excellent finishes for the interior. Some folks use Gym Seal (I think that's the name), a commercial urethane finish.

There are also linear urethane finishes, extreme durability and gloss.

It's okay if you own a Hunter, they've served a lot of people well for their needs. I think most folks on this board are willing to help someone having a difficult time regardless of their current boat.

Correction..........I neglected to note, only maximum thin the first coat for penetration and sealing purposes.

[Harvey]

You might want to try a paste wood filler prior to varnishing. The little pores in the grain of the teak may be causing the bubbles. Pettit makes a wood filler that you brush on. It comes in natural, which I would recommend, and tinted. Just follow the can directions. Unfortunately you will have to take all the poly off. You may want to use a traditional varnish rather than polyurethane. There are lots of good traditional varnishes out there that will give you superior results. I've noticed that wood filler isn't often used anymore, but the results are dramatic. Hope this helps.

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

sedco@maine.rr.com

[Boyd]

Hi Craig....

Its very hard to tell from just a description what may be going on. I have done a lot of refinishing furniture and other stuff over the years and what you describe could be several things. The other posts give very good advise if the problem is just little air bubbles from improper brushing technique.

However what is going on may be something else. If oils or worse yet silicone polishes are present in the wood before you varnished they may be causing the problem. Silicones produce a series of round depressions that look like where you tossed a rock in a pond. These are called fisheyes and its very hard to deal with. The second possible cause may be oils in the wood pores are preventing the finish from attaching itself at those points hence leaving very small air pockets. There may be small oily particles of dirt or sand embedded in the old finish also contributing to the problem. In my case the sole of my cabin was contaminated with engine oil by a previous owner.

If it was surface contamination then the proper proceedure would have been to wash the surface prior to sanding with a TSP solution (adding a little bleach helps also depending on how dirty it is. Once you sand if there are silicones present you just spread them. Same with oils. Washing first would help remove them. The tack cloth just picks up dust. I have washed the surface and sanded and washed again to be sure.

I assume from your post that the cat is out of the bag and you have already varnished the whole floor. The problem may be solved at this point by sanding down the floor extensively, washing with TSP, tacking it down and putting on a second coat. Can you experiment on an area which is not too visible? I would not use any solvents on the minwax finish at this point unless you plan to strip it and start over.

I have a confession... I used to own a Hunter also.. probably will be drummed off the site for that one... Boyd

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

Tern30@aol.com

[craig]

Hi Craig....

Its very hard to tell from just a description what may be going on. I have done a lot of refinishing furniture and other stuff over the years and what you describe could be several things. The other posts give very good advise if the problem is just little air bubbles from improper brushing technique.

However what is going on may be something else. If oils or worse yet silicone polishes are present in the wood before you varnished they may be causing the problem. Silicones produce a series of round depressions that look like where you tossed a rock in a pond. These are called fisheyes and its very hard to deal with. The second possible cause may be oils in the wood pores are preventing the finish from attaching itself at those points hence leaving very small air pockets. There may be small oily particles of dirt or sand embedded in the old finish also contributing to the problem. In my case the sole of my cabin was contaminated with engine oil by a previous owner.

If it was surface contamination then the proper proceedure would have been to wash the surface prior to sanding with a TSP solution (adding a little bleach helps also depending on how dirty it is. Once you sand if there are silicones present you just spread them. Same with oils. Washing first would help remove them. The tack cloth just picks up dust. I have washed the surface and sanded and washed again to be sure.

I assume from your post that the cat is out of the bag and you have already varnished the whole floor. The problem may be solved at this point by sanding down the floor extensively, washing with TSP, tacking it down and putting on a second coat. Can you experiment on an area which is not too visible? I would not use any solvents on the minwax finish at this point unless you plan to strip it and start over.

I have a confession... I used to own a Hunter also.. probably will be drummed off the site for that one... Boyd

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

As alittle followup on my technique: After I finished this project, I couldnt stand looking at it so I brought my bilge cover home to practice. The cover is about one ft by four foot. I totally stripped it and let it dry. I then lightly sanded,tacked and applied three coats of the same minwax poly clear. Same results, small pinsized bubbles that i had to dab with the brush to remove. There are too many to do this. I had my wife try her luck and no change. I tried expensive, cheap, brisol, foam brushes. The finish is ok but the small sand sized marks are there. Now ofcourse the piece is darker than the rest of my floor. Dont really care to stip the floor either. This boat will be in my possession another yr or two so this project needs to come to an end. My varnish is new, I never stir the can, I dont wipe the brush on the can sides to introduce air and bam, the specs of air return. I was looking for a floor of high gloss that had none of this stuff in it. I aint there yet but not giving up either. thanks for your help. craig



shavdog@aol.com

[Mark Yashinsky]

Besides thinning the varnish, are you "brushing" too fast or going over the wet varnish again and again??? Also look in woodworking/finishing books that have a problem solving section.

[Olli Wendelin]

Craig,

I see no mention of what wood your floor is. If it is teak or another oily wood it should be wiped with acetone and allowed to dry ~20 min just before varnishing to remove the surface oils.

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC



wendelin@spawar.navy.mil

[Brace Tallents]

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

It sounds more of a reaction of the poly to the wood than preperation , Take the poly off , it doesen't last very long anyway ,clean with acitone and let set overnite . Then try cetol high gloss . It lasts , and cleans with water nicely , have had no problems in 2 years , shines like the dickens . Good luck ,



wfeaster1@aol.com

[Fred]

I am very unhappy with my floor. I sanded, then tack clothed, then tacked again, then varnished with minwax clear, high gloss polyerthuene. I keep getting these pinhead size bubbles that wont go away unless i dab them outta there. what that heck is going on. I called minwax and they told me to thin the product. tried that. no luck. tried different brushes, different strokes, dipped the brush and didnt wipe on the side of the can to introduce any air and no luck. I keep my wife happier with less work than this project. I dont stir the varnish, it's new . I want a high gloss, reflective shine and cant get it. any suggestions or product that will do this for a somewhat fussy owner? heck with all the sailing tecno stuff, i need a good look'n floor. thanks for your help. craig 1987 34ft hunter(but in the end a cape dory will appear)

It does sound like a fisheye problem. It's almost always caused by silicone, furniture polish, etc.

The easy fix is to switch to a matte varnish, the spots will still be there, but you won't be able to see them. Epifanes wood finish matte is an excellent product, for this application. Just sand it with 180 or 220 sandpaper, and apply a fresh coat. This should take care of your problem, but you'll have to live with a matte finish . It really looks fine though, especially on an older boat.



fred@hotsheet.com

[Chris Scheck]

Craig -

what about a sanding after the final coat has dried? With #2000 sandpaper, followed by polishing with 3M Finesse-It on a buffer. That's what I did when I refinished the top of the navigation table on our CD33. I wanted a perfect finish, and no matter how careful I was, I was getting tiny bubbles and dust in the Minwax Helmsman Polyurethane. So after it dried, I sanded with 1200, then 1500, then 2000. You can buy paper like this at a good marine supply store. It's used by boat builders to polish the inside of the mold before they start laying up fiberglass. After you finish sanding with 2000, you'll have a soft satiny looking finish. If you want a really shiny, piano finish, use a buffer with Finesse-It. Might be a little slippery to walk on.

Chris Scheck
Ragtime
CD33 #117



cscheck@aol.com