"swinging at anchor"

[Larry DeMers]

Pat,

I can see two good reasons why Cape Dory and most other sailboats sail at anchor:

The anchor lead is usually off to one side or the other, giving the vessel an uneven stance when pulling back on the rode, which starts the oscillations.

More windage in the bow due to the sheer (ie; the bow gets more wind than the stern does), will cause the wind to make the bow fall off before the stern. Combined with the anchor rode restricting the bow's movements, it will act like a "kite", and sail.

Roller furling and other gear at the bow act as small inducements for the boat to fall off on one or the other side and start to sail.

The solution is to try to put the stern directly in line with the bow and the wind direction. As it starts to take off on it's sail, a riding sail will then help push the stern back into the alignment that we seek, killing off the oscillation. Other than presenting the boat at an angle to the wind (as with a warp to the anchor rode), to get a predominant direction where the boat will stay put (but put a lot more strain on the anchor and rode combo), and also an anchor rider, I can think of no other way besides a riding sail, to limit your movement while at anchor.


Cheers!

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30

I don't have a solution....the privious message sounds interesting and I'm going to give that a try myself...but I believe one of the reasons Cape Dory's swing or hunt at anchor is because of the "cut-away" forefoot design. Because there is a lot less keel under the forward half of the boat then the aft end of the boat, there is much less lateral resistance to the wind pushing against the side of the boat. So as soon as it feels a little wind against one side of the nose.....it tends to fall off and kind of sail over a bit till it comes up tighter on the rode and then starts over.

Pat

demers@sgi.com

[Olli Wendelin]

Larry,

How about a reefed mizzen?

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC



wendelin@spawar,navy.mil

[Larry DeMers]

We fly the riding sail while our cockpit tent is up, as well as a small bimini. The tent is a homemade Sunbrella product attached to the dodger, and encloses the whole cockpit to past the lower lifelines. All rain is shed and wind is diverted over the top of the tent. The riding sail sets just above the tent and the boom. For simplicity sake, you may want to hoist the riding sail first, then your cockpit covers.
Flying this sail backwards off the backstay? What would the clew be fastened to? I am afraid that I don't see how this would work..

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

I have a couple of follow up questions to this thread:
1.For those of you that use a riding sail, do you also have a bimini, and should I assume that that you fold the bimini forward onto the cabin top when you are using the riding sail?
2. Does anyone "fly" the riding sail off the back of the boat, instead of into the cockpit?
Thanks,
Bob Ohler
CD30
"Aloha Spirit"

demers@sgi.com

[Larry DeMers]

Olli,

Sure..that would be great! It is one of the pluses of a ketch rig I believe. Just hoist enough to do the rick..lucky guy, has an adjustable size riding sail!

Cheers!

Larry

Larry,

How about a reefed mizzen?

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC

demers@sgi.com

[Larry DeMers]

Olli,

Sure..that would be great! It is one of the pluses of a ketch rig I believe. Just hoist enough to do the rick..lucky guy, has an adjustable size riding sail!

Cheers!

Larry

Larry,

How about a reefed mizzen?

Olli Wendelin
BLUE MOON
Charleston, SC

demers@sgi.com

[Larry DeMers]

Pat and John,

Yes, it can be led to either side, and that will favor one tack over another, which will settle the boat down with a slight amount of bias towards that side. But now that sheet is across the sidedecks and in the way of anyone going forward. If it were not needed, this would be dangerous practice..a good trip hazard has been created. One that will be forgotten at 2am int he rain and wind, when you have to change anchorages for instance. For that reason, we keep the riding sail tied to the bail at the foot of our mast unless we want to have the boat swing to one side on purpose (to avoid some waves better, or to move to one side of center predominantly (we have still tacked occasionally though, when doing this). You will notice that the angle it creates to the winds direction is about 5-10 deg.not much really, so there is little utility in this practice I have found).

Cheers!

Larry

Larry,

I've seen the add for the riding sail from sailrite, but isn't it a bit small? Is there a formula for how big the riding sail should be? I asked a local Hood sailmaker about a riding sail for my boat and he suggested a much larger sail then that offered by sailrite. Also, I understand that the place to make fast the sheet is just of to one side or the other of the mast....like to a mid cleat if you have one. That cocks the boat just a tad off the wind and keeps it there.

Pat

demers@sgi.com

[Larry]

John,

The double bridle idea is what gives you less swinging at anchor. Good idea. It eliminates the offeset anchor rode feed that starts the oscillations off usually. Combining that with your rode rider, you have controlled the swing pretty well I would imagine.
I have just started using the Rode Rider on our boat, and find it easy to deply and stow..in other words, not a lot of hassle getting it down or up. What weight do you have on yours? We use 15 lbs.

Cheers!

Larry

John,

Then you have not had her anchored in high winds. We have seen her sail 90 degrees to one side of the anchor and then wallow her way around to 90 degress off the anchor on the other side..in 35 kt. of wind. A riding sail will hold her in the center.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

I wouldn't say "have not". Certainly not to the degree you experience on Superior on more or less a regular basis. I don't think most boats are in those type of conditions on a general basis. Haven't had her anchored in 35 knots (continuous) but certainly she has been in varying duration gusts and squalls; there was minimal not excessive swinging. She has a lot of chain which may help and I use a double line bridle with a ABI chain grabber. On the rode section I will set a bronze "Rode Rider" if conditions warrant it and all the chain has been payed out.

That's what I've usually seen also. The sail is sheeted off to one side or the other. Our main is roller furled and in the past I once tried using just a small area of the main left unfurled and it seemed to help a little. I've given a riding sail consideration but would have to free up the topping lift to use as a halyard or use the spinnaker halyard in an odd fashion since the main halyard is being used all the time with the furling.

I've never found the boat (CD30) to swing excessively anyway.

demers@sgi.com

[John R.]

It's 22lbs of cast bronze. It is a one piece unit with a incorporated
Delrin or nylon sheave with a gate to allow the rode to be placed on the sheave and retained. I also have a ABI rider that you shackle a mushroom anchor or similar to but it is a lot clumsier to use with all the moving components and doesn't store nearly as well. The "Rode Rider" is a superior piece of gear. I'll send you a pic of it. I may assemble a small website so people can see these types of equipment rather than trying to visualize from words. It's very difficult to describe the kind of differences in gear like this, a picture would say it all I think you will agree and it would save us a hell of a lot of typing and misspells (for me at least).

John,

The double bridle idea is what gives you less swinging at anchor. Good idea. It eliminates the offeset anchor rode feed that starts the oscillations off usually. Combining that with your rode rider, you have controlled the swing pretty well I would imagine.
I have just started using the Rode Rider on our boat, and find it easy to deply and stow..in other words, not a lot of hassle getting it down or up. What weight do you have on yours? We use 15 lbs.

Cheers!

Larry

John,

Then you have not had her anchored in high winds. We have seen her sail 90 degrees to one side of the anchor and then wallow her way around to 90 degress off the anchor on the other side..in 35 kt. of wind. A riding sail will hold her in the center.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

I wouldn't say "have not". Certainly not to the degree you experience on Superior on more or less a regular basis. I don't think most boats are in those type of conditions on a general basis. Haven't had her anchored in 35 knots (continuous) but certainly she has been in varying duration gusts and squalls; there was minimal not excessive swinging. She has a lot of chain which may help and I use a double line bridle with a ABI chain grabber. On the rode section I will set a bronze "Rode Rider" if conditions warrant it and all the chain has been payed out.

[John Vigor]

Dick, any boat with most of its windage forward of the center of lateral resistance will tend to hunt at anchor. The wind is trying to push the front of the boat sideways all the time. The boat is constantly trying to take up a position at right angles to the wind. As all sloops have masts that are far foward, they are particularly prone to hunting.

Nylon rodes exacerbate hunting through the slingshot effect of their elasticity. All-chain rodes tend to check hunting substantially. You'll notice that boats using chain only always lie very quietly.

A riding sail set aft will force the stern to line up with the wind, but is difficult for a sloop to set. A large dodger or deckhouse will have the same effect, of course, and reduce hunting.

But two common ways to reduce hunting are far simpler. The first is to set two anchors in a 45-degree V ahead. This will restrict the bow's lateral movement to a very small range.

The second, even simpler, is to lower a second anchor, or any kind of heavy weight over the bow so that it just drags along the sea bottom. Don't give it any scope, just feed it enough line so that the weight rests on the bottom. It will drag to and fro in a small arc and very effectively smother the wild swinging.

John Vigor
CD25D "Jabula"



jvigor@qwest. net

[Warren Kaplan]

The second, even simpler, is to lower a second anchor, or any kind of heavy weight over the bow so that it just drags along the sea bottom. Don't give it any scope, just feed it enough line so that the weight rests on the bottom. It will drag to and fro in a small arc and very effectively smother the wild swinging.

John Vigor
CD25D "Jabula"

John,
Just one question about lowering a second anchor off the bow and letting it "drag" on the bottom. I have no doubt this technique works. But that second anchor dragging around...isn't there a good chance of fouling the rode from the primary anchor? I know you said not to let out much scope on the second anchor, but still it seems to me in conditions where you'd want that second anchor, fouling by a dragging anchor is a real possibility.
Thanks
Warren
S/V Sine Qua Non
CD27



Setsail728@aol.com

[Bob Ohler]

We fly the riding sail while our cockpit tent is up, as well as a small bimini. The tent is a homemade Sunbrella product attached to the dodger, and encloses the whole cockpit to past the lower lifelines. All rain is shed and wind is diverted over the top of the tent. The riding sail sets just above the tent and the boom. For simplicity sake, you may want to hoist the riding sail first, then your cockpit covers.
Flying this sail backwards off the backstay? What would the clew be fastened to? I am afraid that I don't see how this would work..

Larry, this idea was proposed to me by a sailmaker. I guess he was thinking of using a whisker pole or similar but the whole idea seemed too involved to me. That is why I asked for the opinions here on the BB.
Bob Ohler

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

I have a couple of follow up questions to this thread:
1.For those of you that use a riding sail, do you also have a bimini, and should I assume that that you fold the bimini forward onto the cabin top when you are using the riding sail?
2. Does anyone "fly" the riding sail off the back of the boat, instead of into the cockpit?
Thanks,
Bob Ohler
CD30
"Aloha Spirit"

bobohler@chesapeake.net

[Catherine Monaghan]

Dave,

I've got 40-feet of 1/4" G7 (that's G7, not G4, high tensile -- stronger then 3/8" BBB or G3 proof coil) chain and 200 feet of 5/8" nylon braid attached to a 35 lb CQR always ready to be deployed from Realization's bow. In the tight quarters in the anchorage on Block Island, I pretty much only deployed the chain -- and about 12 feet of line. The line didn't even reach the water. Realization never moved -- thank God. At other less crowded anchorages I can let out much more line. Realization gently swings but it's hardly noticeable. She's usually in line with the other boats. Before upgrading my ground tackle, she had only 12-feet of 3/8" G3 proof coil and 150 feet of 1/2" nylon braid. (I now use that rode with a 23-lb Fortress.) With only 12-feet of chain, she tended to swing more than she does now. I think a good length of chain makes a difference -- decreases the likelihood of dragging as well.

catherine_monaghan@merck.com
CD32 <a href="http://www.hometown.aol.com/bcomet/real ... ization</a>, #3
Rahway, NJ
Raritan Bay

Captain Haley,

No, the rode on Hanalei is about 25 feet of chain and then nylon rode of about 200 feet. This attached to a CGR anchor. I don't think all chain rode would be a good idea, too much weight, too far forward. She doesn't swing, and I like I said earlier, I think it is because of little windage presented to the wind - no dodger!

For next year? Why something "Traditional" of course! Nice meeting you too, I remain....

Dave Stump
Captain Commanding
s/v Hanalei CD-30

catherine_monaghan@merck.com

[Larry DeMers]

Strangely complicated it seems..I must be overlooking something though. It would seemt hat the spinn. pole would have to be supported in three directions..topping lift, and two side 'stays' to center the clew, and this would only sart to work on a wide beamed boat too I would expect. What am I missing?

Larry

We fly the riding sail while our cockpit tent is up, as well as a small bimini. The tent is a homemade Sunbrella product attached to the dodger, and encloses the whole cockpit to past the lower lifelines. All rain is shed and wind is diverted over the top of the tent. The riding sail sets just above the tent and the boom. For simplicity sake, you may want to hoist the riding sail first, then your cockpit covers.
Flying this sail backwards off the backstay? What would the clew be fastened to? I am afraid that I don't see how this would work..

Larry, this idea was proposed to me by a sailmaker. I guess he was thinking of using a whisker pole or similar but the whole idea seemed too involved to me. That is why I asked for the opinions here on the BB.
Bob Ohler

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

I have a couple of follow up questions to this thread:
1.For those of you that use a riding sail, do you also have a bimini, and should I assume that that you fold the bimini forward onto the cabin top when you are using the riding sail?
2. Does anyone "fly" the riding sail off the back of the boat, instead of into the cockpit?
Thanks,
Bob Ohler
CD30
"Aloha Spirit"

demers@sgi.com

[John Vigor]

Warren, it's a vague possibility that the second anchor could foul the rode of the bower, but it's highly unlikely. If there's wind enough to cause a boat to dance around from side to side, she'll be lying back to her anchor and the rode will be stretching ahead, well clear of the weight dragging on the bottom.

Only in a calm, or an errant current, are you likely to foul the rode, and in those conditions all you need do is lift the weight a few feet and it will be clear of everything.

John V.

[Neil Gordon]

>>It would seemt hat the spinn. pole would have to be supported in three directions..topping lift, and two side 'stays' to center the clew, ...<<

I agree with the stays, but the pole would need to be held *down*, against the upward force of the halyard.


Regards, Neil
s/v LIQUIDITY
Cape Dory 28 #167



cdory28@aol.com