Intermittent cranking problem on Universal engine solved.

[Tom]

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.



TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Dennis Truett]

Tom, Does this fix disable the glow from operating when the glow plug is pressed? This fix would be applicable to most controll panels, not just for Universal engins.

Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

[Tom]

Dennis, No it doesn't diable anything and if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you, you can change it back in 5 minutes and have it exactly like it was. I'll send you the diagram to check out.

Tom, Does this fix disable the glow from operating when the glow plug is pressed? This fix would be applicable to most controll panels, not just for Universal engins.

Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Dennis truett]

Thanks Tom! Looking forward to it. ENAIL - truettdc@frontiernet.net

Dennis

Dennis, No it doesn't diable anything and if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you, you can change it back in 5 minutes and have it exactly like it was. I'll send you the diagram to check out.

Tom, Does this fix disable the glow from operating when the glow plug is pressed? This fix would be applicable to most controll panels, not just for Universal engins.

Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

truettdc@frontiernet.net

[Bill Sonntag]

Just FYI, I did this on my CD 31 Universal M25 control panel about two
years ago. It just did not make sense to me to have a wiring pattern that
resulted in a simultaneous current drain from both the glowplugs and the
starter. The cylinders stay warm for the second or two it takes to engage
the starter, why have'em both pulling the battery down? I never understood
why there was the starter essentially wired in series with the glowplug
switch unless it was supposed to be an accidental start prevention
mechanism - you always need to turn on the ignition anyway. My engine will
now often start without use of the glowplugs for a period after it has been
run on a warm day. I've found the change helped both cold and hot starting.

Bill Sonntag



dalbers1@earthlink.net

[M. R. Bober]

I reviewed the Universal electrical schematic and your recommended modification. It appeared OK. So I spent about a half-hour gaining access to the rear of the panel and 30 seconds moving the cable.

So far so good. Thanks Tom. Perhaps someday I can pull a thorn out of your paw!
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330

[john doyle]

I reviewed the Universal electrical schematic and your recommended modification. It appeared OK. So I spent about a half-hour gaining access to the rear of the panel and 30 seconds moving the cable.

So far so good. Thanks Tom. Perhaps someday I can pull a thorn out of your paw!
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330

I second the nomination. I just rewired mine tonight & cranks immediately. Thanks Tom



redzeplin@yahoo.com

[Tom]

Just FYI, I did this on my CD 31 Universal M25 control panel about two
years ago. It just did not make sense to me to have a wiring pattern that
resulted in a simultaneous current drain from both the glowplugs and the
starter. The cylinders stay warm for the second or two it takes to engage
the starter, why have'em both pulling the battery down? I never understood
why there was the starter essentially wired in series with the glowplug
switch unless it was supposed to be an accidental start prevention
mechanism - you always need to turn on the ignition anyway. My engine will
now often start without use of the glowplugs for a period after it has been
run on a warm day. I've found the change helped both cold and hot starting.

Bill Sonntag

Bill, When you did yours, did you just change lugs on the glow plug switch, or did you introduce a new wire to the input side of the starter switch from the key switch or elsewhere? I just changed lugs but Dennis raised the question about maybe that wire was supposed to feed the other wires on the lug where it used to be.In other words thee would be current coming back to the glow plug switch FROM the starter switch. This doesn't seem likely to me because then you'd have current being fed to both sides of the glow plug switch, but you never know. I haven't chased it down with a meter yet. So far everything works perfectly.



TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Tom]

and all the little people behind the scenes.....




TomCambria@mindspring.com

[Dennis truett]

Tom - Per my EMAIL... I received you diagram which showed only the starter circuit. What we need to see is the GLOW plug circuit since that is what the buttom actually does. The GLOW plugs require a lot of current. Because of this the final connection from the battery supply to the GLOW plug in made through a relay.(solinoid) That relay is energised by the glow plug push button. Just like in a car. The ignition key operates a Relay (solinoid) which closes and energises the starter. On my CD you can hear the relay close when the GLOW PLUG button is pushed in. An easy way to determine if you have disabled the glow plug is to listen for this relay to operate. Just because the engine starts, doesn't mean you haven't disalbed the glow plugs. My engine starts easy this time of year, but does require the Glow plug on thoes cold mornings in spring and fall. THis is purly speculation on my part, but better safe than sorry.
Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

truettdc@frontiernet.net

[Tom]

I agree with that. FWIW my understanding of the wiring is that the key doesn't energize the starter or glow plug circuit. Turning the key sends current to the upstream side of the glow plug switch. When you press the starter button or the glow plug button, that's when the solenoid is energized on the starter motor or the glow plugs are energized. Electricity comes from the batteries via the mast switch to the key switch on the instrument panel. Turning the key on sends current to the upstream side of the glow plug button, but doesn't energize the glow plugs -- otherwise they would be on all the time the key is on. When you want to energize the glow plugs you press the glow plug button which closes that circuit and starts heating the glow plugs. Once they are warm you let up on the button and that breaks the circuit. The click you hear when you turn the key switch is the electric fuel pump being energized which does not go through any buttons and pumps all the time the key is on. I'm not a mechanic so I'm explaining my thinking so that if I'm wrong you can explain why.

In my diagram the fat white wire brings current from the key switch to the glow plug switch, thus there is current on the glow plug switch regardless of what the starter switch is doing. When you press the glow plug button, current is sent via one of the small wires on the downstream side of the glow plug switch to the glow plugs. As I understand it the glow plugs should work regardless of where the tap to the starter button is made.

Tom - Per my EMAIL... I received you diagram which showed only the starter circuit. What we need to see is the GLOW plug circuit since that is what the buttom actually does. The GLOW plugs require a lot of current. Because of this the final connection from the battery supply to the GLOW plug in made through a relay.(solinoid) That relay is energised by the glow plug push button. Just like in a car. The ignition key operates a Relay (solinoid) which closes and energises the starter. On my CD you can hear the relay close when the GLOW PLUG button is pushed in. An easy way to determine if you have disabled the glow plug is to listen for this relay to operate. Just because the engine starts, doesn't mean you haven't disalbed the glow plugs. My engine starts easy this time of year, but does require the Glow plug on thoes cold mornings in spring and fall. THis is purly speculation on my part, but better safe than sorry.
Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

TomCambria@mindspring.com

[M.R. Bober]

This was posted on the page sometime ago:

For the Universal manual online see http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/unive ... lcome.html

The diagram is abit hard to see (even with the BIG monitor here at the office).
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330

[M. R. Bober]

Dennis,
After I moved the wire, pressing the "glow plug" button moved the ammeter into the deep discharge range. This is, of course, the same as before the wire was moved.

From my quick scan of the schematic, it doesn't appear to matter--electrically--how the starter switch gets its input. There may be other issues related to using both thumbs simultaneously ("One if by land;two if by sea."??). If so, I hope someone will announce them.

In the interim: She starts first time, every time.

[Dennis]

Tom, We might be comparing apples to oranges. The click is deffinitly
when I push the GP button. I don't have an electrict fuel pump. After I start my engine it will run with the key off. I have to have the key on and push BOTH bottoms at the same time to start the motor. I'm suppose to press and hold the GP for ten seconds, then while keeping the GP button in also push the Start button to start the engine. (on mine)The key feeds voltage to the glow plug button, thru the GP button when its pressed to the start button. (On MINE)If I moved the feed from the input side to the output side of the GP switch, I would no longer feed the GP switch at all and the glow plugs would not operate. Internally the switch is a single throw double pole switch, Which means it switches two circuits with one throw (push) 1st circuit Passes voltage to the starter button. The 2nd makes a connection to the GPs .If you just put a wire strap across those two terminals, (Input & output)it would be the same thing. You would be eliminating the internal working of just one circuit in the switch, but still feed the input side of the switch for the circuit for the glow plugs.
What does FWIW mean?
I just don't want people to make these modifications, and then when they really neeed their motor, it won't start because its cold. Boy! sure hate typing!
Dennis

I agree with that. FWIW my understanding of the wiring is that the key doesn't energize the starter or glow plug circuit. Turning the key sends current to the upstream side of the glow plug switch. When you press the starter button or the glow plug button, that's when the solenoid is energized on the starter motor or the glow plugs are energized. Electricity comes from the batteries via the mast switch to the key switch on the instrument panel. Turning the key on sends current to the upstream side of the glow plug button, but doesn't energize the glow plugs -- otherwise they would be on all the time the key is on. When you want to energize the glow plugs you press the glow plug button which closes that circuit and starts heating the glow plugs. Once they are warm you let up on the button and that breaks the circuit. The click you hear when you turn the key switch is the electric fuel pump being energized which does not go through any buttons and pumps all the time the key is on. I'm not a mechanic so I'm explaining my thinking so that if I'm wrong you can explain why.

In my diagram the fat white wire brings current from the key switch to the glow plug switch, thus there is current on the glow plug switch regardless of what the starter switch is doing. When you press the glow plug button, current is sent via one of the small wires on the downstream side of the glow plug switch to the glow plugs. As I understand it the glow plugs should work regardless of where the tap to the starter button is made.

Tom - Per my EMAIL... I received you diagram which showed only the starter circuit. What we need to see is the GLOW plug circuit since that is what the buttom actually does. The GLOW plugs require a lot of current. Because of this the final connection from the battery supply to the GLOW plug in made through a relay.(solinoid) That relay is energised by the glow plug push button. Just like in a car. The ignition key operates a Relay (solinoid) which closes and energises the starter. On my CD you can hear the relay close when the GLOW PLUG button is pushed in. An easy way to determine if you have disabled the glow plug is to listen for this relay to operate. Just because the engine starts, doesn't mean you haven't disalbed the glow plugs. My engine starts easy this time of year, but does require the Glow plug on thoes cold mornings in spring and fall. THis is purly speculation on my part, but better safe than sorry.
Dennis

After 13 years I have figured out how to solve the problem of Universal Diesel engines that sometimes don't want to crank especially when warm. The fix takes about 5 minutes and all you need is a screwdriver. I've drawn a diagram and scanned it and will email it to you if you write me directly. Just send your credit card number ... no only joking it's completely free.

Basically the problem was that the glow plug button wasn't allowing enough current through it to activate the starter. By moving one wire from one post to another you hop around the glow plug when pressing the start button. The wire has lugs on it so you don't have to solder anything. Loosen the screw move the wire to the other post and that's it. I can't believe I've suffered with this for 13 years and the cure is so simple. For Universal owners this is the post of the decade! Excuse my delirium but this is wonderful, I tell you, Wonderful!!! Email me directly at < tomcambria@mindspring.com > and I'll email you the diagram and an explanation which you'll hardly need it's so obvious and simple.

[Dennis]

I looked at it , The GP switch had only 2 wires on it. Looks like if you moved the wire to the other side, the starter button would lose voltage and the GPs would be on all the time. That diagram looks like what we would want. Each button works independent of the other. One feed, feeds both switches and doesn't require to voltage to go through the GP button to get to the Start button. That is if we are looking at the same thing.,

Dennis

This was posted on the page sometime ago:

For the Universal manual online see http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/unive ... lcome.html

The diagram is abit hard to see (even with the BIG monitor here at the office).
Mitchell Bober
RESPITE
CD330