Whoa. This guy doesn't like Alberg

[fritz3000g]

You have clearly stated you want a fin keel boat. That's cool. You should get one

I have this unfortunate habit of asserting things that I'm unsure of with unreasonable confidence because people react to them. That seems to be to be the best way to learn on the internet. Thank you for letting me push you a bit and providing really useful information. I realize it can get annoying and I'm sorry about that.

I'm really intrigued by your argument that when you have two boats of a similar size, both loaded for cruising, the full keeled boat is more trustworthy and similarly-performing offshore. I can't say I'm fully convinced, but you make the case clearly (Vigor does as well, but he doesn't do forums anymore) and that's a claim I'll keep paying attention to in case I find myself needing to make that choice, which might happen.

My experience biases me because I've been in multiple storms with the Beneteau (which the boat handled fine), and haven't in a CD over 30'. That's one downside with selecting cruising boats. Racers are always looking for crew and regularly sail through storms with them. How can I get CD 30+ storm-experience before buying?

As for me and at the moment (sorry, this is a bit off-topic for the original post), what I want most is a trailerable boat, ideally one with some offshore capabilities. I think that I've got the closest I can get to that within my budget. Sometimes it really bothers me that I can't go the place I want to on the day I want to when another boat (like my friend's Beneteau) could, but sometimes I can (like when getting to that place requires a trailer and truck).

Like you've said, "all boats are tradeoffs."

Thank you! 

[John Stone]

All full keel boats are not more seaworthy than all fin keel boats. There are poorly made full keel boats and there are some fine fin keel boats. There are boats like pacific Seacraft that fit between the two. The Contessa 32 is a fin keeler and has a superb reputation and there are others. I am not a fan of Beneteau for off shore sailing but I met an Aussie in Sint Maarten who sailed a Beneteau 40 around the world. Would not be my choice but he made it work. Ultimately build quality plays a significant role, along with the skill of the designer of course...and the skill of the sailor.

Heavier displacement boats can carry more weight with less degradation of sailing performance than light displacement boats because the heavier boats won't sink as far below their lines when fully loaded--this plays into pounds per inch immersion factor. Deeper slacker bilges allow for more storage in the bilge area: I carry 70 gallons of water in the bilge plus spare equipment like hardware and anchor chains, extra bottled water, a wine locker, etc. All that weight is down low. Full keel boats are easier to heave-to and get a square drift. They have more comfortable motion off shore than a shallow bilged light displacement boat. One of my favorite voyaging boats is the 28' Bristol Channel Cutter--a gorgeous full keel beast of a boat that's wicked fast. I'm not a West Sail 32 hater...quite the contrary. It's probably the toughest most capable offshore production boat ever built. I have sailed them and if they are set up correctly and sailed by a knowledgeable sailor they can be surprisingly fast when well handled. A few under body mods make a huge improvement.

Heavier boats carry their momentum through waves and are easier to tack in choppy conditions due to the momentum that carries them through but they do turn a little slower if they are full keeled.

There are fin keel boats I would own for sure and sail offshore but not many because I like strongly built medium to heavy boats. Tartan 34s and 37s come to mind. S&S designed a couple as well. And then of course Webb Chiles who circumnavigated six (?) times sailed a 1970s era fun keeled Morgan 37 Heritage One Tonner around the world on one of those voyages. It is a skinny, fat, pinched sterned IOR boat. He liked it. He is now sailing and circumnavigated in a Moore 24, a very light fin keeled race boat. He can't stand up in it.

Look at what Sam Holmes has achieved with his CD 28 Pickled Herring--he can stand up in it. I don't know of another production boat that size that could take the beating he has subjected his boat too. I think he is in the Mediterranean now. A Contessa 26 is a tough boat but you can't stand up in it. Another Cape Dorian Fred sailed a CD 28 Fenix Rising (search the forum) around the world. The CD 28 is a tough boat and a legit pocket voyaging boat. It's also trailerable as is the Alberg 30.

There is a lot of info out there but I'd turn to trusted books and authors with credentials instead of the bloviators on Cruiser Net and Sailing Anarchy.

But in the end if you just like the way fin keel boats sail then find one that's well built and up to the task you intend for it.

[fritz3000g]

Thanks! I'll keep learning and keep my eyes peeled for chances to go out in heavier boats.

It looks like the Fenix Rising website is defunct. If anyone knows where to find some of the images and stories he'd posted there I'd love to see them!

His self-steering gear sounds like a great idea, and I'm going to read Letcher's book probably next winter. I'd been thinking of getting a Pelagic, but if I could make my own reliable self-steering system for half the price that would be compelling.

[John Stone]

Fritz....If you look in the Annex of Moitessier's book The Long Way he has some info on different style DIY trim tab Windvanes. I thought it was very interesting particularly the example of the one he used on his boat Joshua. Interestingly Kevin Boothby appears to use a very similarly style windvane on his gaff rigged Southern Cross 31 Ruth Avery. below is a link to his windvane build.

https://kevinboothbysailing.com/boat-pr ... -windvane/

I also posted a video about how a servo pendulum windvane works, specifically the Cape Horn Windvane. It might be of some use to you if you are not familiar with how they work.

https://youtu.be/8upov7LwLtk?si=KQHTMmnrEcZQC3Fx

[fmueller]

My son Toby runs a company in Bristol RI - Carbon Ocean Yachts.

I mentioned this thread and he said the general metric he hears for a boat that can reliably outrun the weather with modern forecasting is 12 knots to windward. The boats we are discussing here are well below that mark ... a slow 6.5 knot hull and a fast 8.5 knot hull both get run over by the hurricane. In that case I'd rather be in the heavy displacement hull regardless of the keel.

Toby's current build is a custom 50 ft all carbon performance cat. It should easily make 18 knots in 25 knot air and never get caught out. That was part of the design brief.

[John Stone]

My son Toby runs a company in Bristol RI - Carbon Ocean Yachts.

I mentioned this thread and he said the general metric he hears for a boat that can reliably outrun the weather with modern forecasting is 12 knots to windward. The boats we are discussing here are well below that mark ... a slow 6.5 knot hull and a fast 8.5 knot hull both get run over by the hurricane. In that case I'd rather be in the heavy displacement hull regardless of the keel.

Toby's current build is a custom 50 ft all carbon performance cat. It should easily make 18 knots in 25 knot air and never get caught out. That was part of the design brief.

Very cool stuff Fred. Crossed the Atlantic many times and the Pacific once on Navy amphibious warships. General underway speeds are 12-14 knots and we dodged many hurricanes that way so I generally agree with the 12knits to windward comment. But I would substitute "shouldn't" instead of "never." Things go wrong.

Here's to happy sailing to everyone and a sincere hope none of us ever have to test our boats or ourselves to the limit.

[fritz3000g]

the general metric he hears for a boat that can reliably outrun the weather with modern forecasting is 12 knots to windward.

I assume that the word "reliably" is some kind of curve which depends on speed, direction, directional uncertainty, amount of advance notice, etc... Have you ever seen anything like a "storm evasion reliability curve"?

I guess what I'm getting at is that a 1 knot boat could evade an accurately-forecasted storm if it was far enough away. So if you created buckets for storm forecasts (i.e. for 10% of storms you have 36 hours notice, for 20% you have 26 hours, etc...), how fast they move, and how often they veer off course, you could estimate the percentage of storms a given boat could evade based on its speed of travel and windward capability.

So much of risk mitigation is figuring out how to reduce your risks and which risks to focus on to what extent, given the cost. I've read multiple places that Earth doesn't spend nearly enough on meteor detection and collision prevention. The odds are low that we'll find a meteor we could defend against, but not zero. Back to boats, to use your numbers, increasing from 6.5 to 8.5 probably does decrease your storm risk by some amount.

Looking forwards to reviewing your videos and book recommendation John! Won't do anything till earliest next winter, but am excited to learn!

[fmueller]

Fritz and John,

You guys are correct ... when I say "reliably" ... I don't mean to imply never. But the point is that 30' displacement hull sailboats, regardless of keel design, don't come close to having storm dodging speed ... so that 30 ft boat needs to be able to take a licking.

Also ... you'l never catch me blue watering it in my 27

[John Stone]

Fritz and John,

You guys are correct ... when I say "reliably" ... I don't mean to imply never. But the point is that 30' displacement hull sailboats, regardless of keel design, don't come close to having storm dodging speed ... so that 30 ft boat needs to be able to take a licking.

Also ... you'l never catch me blue watering it in my 27

I'm with you all the way Fred.

[fritz3000g]

The very popular YouTubers Sailing Uma are having a hard time with their Pearson. Just not built to withstand what they have subjected her to. I have seen similar problems when people take a lighter weight coastal boats offshore. The rigors of offshore sailing are real and unforgiving. So when people talk about CDs being too heavy or too stout I never worry about the FR not being up to to the task.

Here's the video John was referencing. Sailing Uma

[Paul D.]

I do admit to very often beating longer waterline length boats like Hunters and Beneteaus in anything over 10kts. Especially downwind with the spinnaker out. But even upwind. Funny they are not out there in anything over 30! It may sometimes be down to me and my crew seeing a race and the other crew a charter crew simply out for a fun sail and not sheeting properly. But in general we’ve been very happy and at times surprised how well our 33 does. Add to that the fact that I’ve never once worried about my family’s safety aboard her in the big stuff, which Lake Superior can dish out, and I say we’ve got a good design, thoughtfully built with care.

[Epiken46]

Greetings sailors,


I came across this thread from 2020 and am posting here because it is such an intense alternative viewpoint specific to Carl Alberg to probably everyone's on this board, including mine. And I would be interested in what people say in counterpoint. Interesting how he bases his argument though. I think our 33 sails just fine; I bet dude never sailed one. And that Alberg guy knew what he was about, designing boats just like he said that he set out to make - seaworthy so you don't need a crew to sit on the rail to make it stand up, simply laid out and with enough sail area so they can move. A compromise boat sure, but one that could do everything pretty well while not being the best at anything - for example pointing. I'll take that. Our boat has been a nearly ideal platform for stress free family exploration of Lake Superior's wildest places for over 20 years in all kinds of weather. What did those 80's classic Cape Dory brochures say, "A standard of value"!

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/questio ... em.332386/

and for a brief nice counterpoint: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailbo ... ss-designs

[jen1722terry]

Interesting thread. Now in our 12th year of sailing our 31, we have no complaints about the boat at all. It is exactly what we wanted, a solid, nice looking boat that can withstand a close encounter with a rock in Maine.

Years ago we heard an interesting yarn about Carl Alberg. Can't recall who told us the story. Maybe Dave Perry, no sure.

Anyhow, back in the early 1980s, Andy Valvolitis, the CD president, was looking for a new design for a 30. So he call Carl and tels ls him that he want's something more modern, with more beam, lighter weight an a sugar scoop transom for easy entry. Carl nods his head and gets to work.

A few months later, Carl's plans for the new 30 show up in Andy's office.

The design looked pretty much like all the other Cape Dorys.

Cheers

Jenn and Terry McAdams
Kearsarge, NH
Mahone Bay, Nova Scotia
Northeast Harbor, Maine