Whoa. This guy doesn't like Alberg

[Paul D.]

Greetings sailors,


I came across this thread from 2020 and am posting here because it is such an intense alternative viewpoint specific to Carl Alberg to probably everyone's on this board, including mine. And I would be interested in what people say in counterpoint. Interesting how he bases his argument though. I think our 33 sails just fine; I bet dude never sailed one. And that Alberg guy knew what he was about, designing boats just like he said that he set out to make - seaworthy so you don't need a crew to sit on the rail to make it stand up, simply laid out and with enough sail area so they can move. A compromise boat sure, but one that could do everything pretty well while not being the best at anything - for example pointing. I'll take that. Our boat has been a nearly ideal platform for stress free family exploration of Lake Superior's wildest places for over 20 years in all kinds of weather. What did those 80's classic Cape Dory brochures say, "A standard of value"!

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/questio ... em.332386/

and for a brief nice counterpoint: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailbo ... ss-designs

[John Stone]

Greetings sailors,


I came across this thread from 2020 and am posting here because it is such an intense alternative viewpoint specific to Carl Alberg to probably everyone's on this board, including mine. And I would be interested in what people say in counterpoint. Interesting how he bases his argument though. I think our 33 sails just fine; I bet dude never sailed one. And that Alberg guy knew what he was about, designing boats just like he said that he set out to make - seaworthy so you don't need a crew to sit on the rail to make it stand up, simply laid out and with enough sail area so they can move. A compromise boat sure, but one that could do everything pretty well while not being the best at anything - for example pointing. I'll take that. Our boat has been a nearly ideal platform for stress free family exploration of Lake Superior's wildest places for over 20 years in all kinds of weather. What did those 80's classic Cape Dory brochures say, "A standard of value"!

https://www.sailnet.com/threads/questio ... em.332386/

and for a brief nice counterpoint: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sailbo ... ss-designs

Hi Paul
I have seen this kind of stuff over the years and it's a bore. So many self proclaimed experts with little relevant experience and what experience they have is not very useful. My wife calls the. Bloviators.

All boats are a compromise. The very popular YouTubers Sailing Uma are having a hard time with their Pearson. Just not built to withstand what they have subjected her to. I have seen similar problems when people take a lighter weight coastal boats offshore. The rigors of offshore sailing are real and unforgiving. So when people talk about CDs being too heavy or too stout I never worry about the FR not being up to to the task. Anyway, would not trade my boat for any other in any ocean including a Rustler 36.

[Pembquist]

I'm no expert by any means and I do love my 28, with that said I think the guy has a point. I would not be at all surprised that a boat that is designed with the benefit of more complex theory/understanding of the dynamics of wave and hull interaction makes a safer sea boat. There is a pretty diehard sentiment that traditional equals better which I don't really buy into. Intuition is often wrong, (look at the history of aerodynamics,) and changes with more understanding. It isn't like a Cape Dory isn't a good solid boat it is just that design technology and naval architecture have improved, why wouldn't they?

[SVFayaway]

I'm no expert by any means and I do love my 28, with that said I think the guy has a point. I would not be at all surprised that a boat that is designed with the benefit of more complex theory/understanding of the dynamics of wave and hull interaction makes a safer sea boat. There is a pretty diehard sentiment that traditional equals better which I don't really buy into. Intuition is often wrong, (look at the history of aerodynamics,) and changes with more understanding. It isn't like a Cape Dory isn't a good solid boat it is just that design technology and naval architecture have improved, why wouldn't they?

I've come to broadly the same conclusion. I enjoyed sailing my Cape Dory offshore and would gladly do so again, but I am buying a much more modern fin keel boat which I think will be equally good offshore. It also has the space and performance I just don't have with the Cape Dory. I spent a long time idolizing Carl Alberg and traditional designers, and it's true he designed great boats, but I've just lost interest in the idea that only one kind of boat is "proper" for safe offshore sailing.

That said, the guy in question (Jeff Halpern) has a well documented bias against older full keel boats that also doesn't hold up to practical experience. As John Stone points out, boats are a compromise, and Jeff H may not like the compromises you get with a Cape Dory. That's fine, but doesn't make his opinion in any way definitive, despite what he likes to believe.

[John Stone]

I'm no expert by any means and I do love my 28, with that said I think the guy has a point. I would not be at all surprised that a boat that is designed with the benefit of more complex theory/understanding of the dynamics of wave and hull interaction makes a safer sea boat. There is a pretty diehard sentiment that traditional equals better which I don't really buy into. Intuition is often wrong, (look at the history of aerodynamics,) and changes with more understanding. It isn't like a Cape Dory isn't a good solid boat it is just that design technology and naval architecture have improved, why wouldn't they?

Because what makes a good seaboat has not changed. Light boats can't carry as much weight without degradation of performance has heavier boats. Light weight cored hulls that suffer water into the core are a nightmare to repair. Light weight wide transoms boats with narrow fin keels and shallow bilges are prone to broaching in big waves and higher wind. They also pound close reaching. They have less storage in the bilge area where CD have significant storage. Light weight boats are very uncomfortable offshore. Lighter boats tend to have lighter scantlings and often suffer more damage at sea. Each year when I sail from NC to the Virgin Islands I arrive with no damage but there are no end to the boats that arrive with ripped out travellers, broken rudders, ripped out toe rails. Broken booms etc.

For a real truth tell read Olin Stephen's remarks on the trend of lighter boats after a lifetime of designing cruising and racing boats. He designed more winning americas cup boats than any naval architect.

[Paul D.]

Love Olin Stephens designs. His Tartan 34c was really the only other boat we were looking at when we got our 33. I have sailed them a fair bit and they are a joy to sail upwind, one finger on the tiller. Very different boats I know but two good old ones for sure. And It was very clear that the CD's are built stronger in my opinion. That engine access on the Tartan though! Only in my dreams!

[John Stone]

Love Olin Stephens designs. His Tartan 34c was really the only other boat we were looking at when we got our 33. I have sailed them a fair bit and they are a joy to sail upwind, one finger on the tiller. Very different boats I know but two good old ones for sure. And It was very clear that the CD's are built stronger in my opinion. That engine access on the Tartan though! Only in my dreams!

Paul, concur the T34 is a fine boat by all accounts. Several have circumnavigated I believe. Trust you and your bro are thawed out from the frozen tundra.

[Paul D.]

We are John thank you. In fact, we are both working on our respective boats this weekend and I've been out for a couple sails already. "BOATS!" as we say, whenever one goes to a hardware store for parts or draws blood crawling through some godforsaken locker. It is not really sailing season till you draw blood I say.

Hope you are getting out there on the FR too.

[fritz3000g]

I occasionally wish I'd bought a deeper-draft fin-keeled boat, such as when I need to sail upwind and can't wait for a wind shift.

Being able to trailer my boat to my house outweighs that most years.

If I were to buy a non-trailerable boat, I'd go for a stout fin-keeled boat over a CD, even if I were going offshore. The tradeoff of speed-as-safety (outrun the storm) vs. stability-as-safety is an interesting one, and in an era of weather routing I can see both sides of it.

[Jim Walsh]

I occasionally wish I'd bought a deeper-draft fin-keeled boat, such as when I need to sail upwind and can't wait for a wind shift.

Being able to trailer my boat to my house outweighs that most years.

If I were to buy a non-trailerable boat, I'd go for a stout fin-keeled boat over a CD, even if I were going offshore. The tradeoff of speed-as-safety (outrun the storm) vs. stability-as-safety is an interesting one, and in an era of weather routing I can see both sides of it.

I took this picture in St. George’s harbor, Bermuda, in 2018. It’s proof that a J-105 can be a blue water cruiser and may be just what you are referring to.

IMG_5309.jpeg

[John Stone]

I occasionally wish I'd bought a deeper-draft fin-keeled boat, such as when I need to sail upwind and can't wait for a wind shift.

Being able to trailer my boat to my house outweighs that most years.

If I were to buy a non-trailerable boat, I'd go for a stout fin-keeled boat over a CD, even if I were going offshore. The tradeoff of speed-as-safety (outrun the storm) vs. stability-as-safety is an interesting one, and in an era of weather routing I can see both sides of it.

I don't understand your comment about your boat not sailing up wind. I have sailed up-wind offshore on the way to the Virgin Islands from NC three times. For 1,400 miles. This includes up wind in 35 knots and 12' seas...for days. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun but the boat did fine. Light fin keel boats with narrow sheeting angles will sail higher than a CD on flat water. But offshore, not so much. Once those boats start plunging into the troughs, slamming into the waves and shaking the hell out of their rigs they have to foot off. They are not pointing any higher than we are but the motion in those boats is worse. You are not going to out run a storm on a small boat--anything under 55-60'. That's a fantasy. Offshore, boat speed in anything other than light wind is a function of multiple factors but ultimately it comes down to waterline length. The keel does not make that much difference. And downwind our boats just sail better offshore. The windvane works better. The boat is more comfortable and is less likely to suffer damage.

The problem our boats experience sailing mostly relate to fixed three blade props, big apertures, too many mushroom head through hulls, fat trailing edges on rudders, unfair hulls, old sails, and inexperienced sailors.

I like fin keel boats. They are fun to sail. They maneuver easily, the helms can be light, they motor well in reverse. But that's about it. They have nothing on our boats offshore or for cruising in general. Get a fin keel if you want but don't kid yourself about what it's going to do for you.

[fritz3000g]

I don't understand your comment about your boat not sailing up wind. I have sailed up-wind offshore on the way to the Virgin Islands from NC three times. For 1,400 miles. This includes up wind in 35 knots and 12' seas...for days. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun but the boat did fine. Light fin keel boats with narrow sheeting angles will sail higher than a CD on flat water. But offshore, not so much. Once those boats start plunging into the troughs, slamming into the waves and shaking the hell out of their rigs they have to foot off. They are not pointing any higher than we are but the motion in those boats is worse.

I'm comparing my experiences in my CD 25D and the Beneteau First 32 that I race in. Beating into 4' waves and 20 kt winds, the Beneteau can point 40 degrees off the wind and maintain 5 kts boat speed. My boat can only point about 60 degrees and maintain 3.5 kts boat speed. So less than half the VMG. Some of that is the old sails I haven't yet replaced (perhaps 40% of the difference, based on what I've heard from the experiences of others).

On at least four occasions I've had to change my plans because I couldn't make the trip I wanted to make in a day because of upwind conditions, where the Beneteau could have. I've finally gotten where I just motor directly upwind till I get to a point where I can aim at the destination with my 60 degree sailing angle.

I've been in 30+ kts on a variety of courses in both boats, and the Beneteau is consistently much faster in all conditions and similarly comfortable, with similar helm pressure (both tiller steered). I don't have experience with wind vanes in either boat.

You make good points about the speed-as-safety issue. Agree about the primacy of waterline length.

[John Stone]

I don't understand your comment about your boat not sailing up wind. I have sailed up-wind offshore on the way to the Virgin Islands from NC three times. For 1,400 miles. This includes up wind in 35 knots and 12' seas...for days. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun but the boat did fine. Light fin keel boats with narrow sheeting angles will sail higher than a CD on flat water. But offshore, not so much. Once those boats start plunging into the troughs, slamming into the waves and shaking the hell out of their rigs they have to foot off. They are not pointing any higher than we are but the motion in those boats is worse.

I'm comparing my experiences in my CD 25D and the Beneteau First 32 that I race in. Beating into 4' waves and 20 kt winds, the Beneteau can point 40 degrees off the wind and maintain 5 kts boat speed. My boat can only point about 60 degrees and maintain 3.5 kts boat speed. So less than half the VMG. Some of that is the old sails I haven't yet replaced (perhaps 40% of the difference, based on what I've heard from the experiences of others).

On at least four occasions I've had to change my plans because I couldn't make the trip I wanted to make in a day because of upwind conditions, where the Beneteau could have. I've finally gotten where I just motor directly upwind till I get to a point where I can aim at the destination with my 60 degree sailing angle.

I've been in 30+ kts on a variety of courses in both boats, and the Beneteau is consistently much faster in all conditions and similarly comfortable, with similar helm pressure (both tiller steered). I don't have experience with wind vanes in either boat.

You make good points about the speed-as-safety issue. Agree about the primacy of waterline length.

What you wrote reinforces my observations.
- The Beneteau First 32 is a race boat. The LWL is 28' and has a SA/D of 19.5.
- The CD25 has a LWL of 18' and a SA/ if 16.5 (high for a CD).
- You are comparing your CD 25 to a race boat with 60 percent more waterline length and a higher SA/D.

It stands to reason you can't sail a CD 25 as well as a Beneteau 32 in those conditions. But put the Beneteau side by side with with say a CD 33. The CD won't point as high but will have no trouble in those conditions and probably make 5 kts or more. Or put it against my boat. I have a 28' LWL and a SA/D of 19.5. Same as the Beneteau. I'll make six + knots or more but won't point as high. I might point 45° or might foot off to 50°. Now take both boats off-shore loaded down for 6 months or a year of voyaging on a 2,000 mile passage. Which boat do you want to be on? That's what we are talking about because you said even if you went offshore you would choose the fin keeler.

I'm not disparaging fin keelers. There are some great ones out there. I have a long love for the Cal 40. But off-shore fin keel boats have little if any value over a full keel boat all other things being equal.

It's like saying you want a corvette compared to a jeep. Depends on what you are doing. The corvette is fun as hell to drive. It's fast and sexy. It can cover a lot of ground in a short time. But if we are driving across BLM land, gravel and two track forest roads, and over Black Bear pass and camping the whole way I'll take my jeep every time.

If you want to race around the buoys and make an overnight race or the occasional one or two week cruise then the First is a great boat. It's a good value too. But I don't think that's what we are talking about.

Let's not forget Cheeki Rafiki, a Beneteau First 40, which lost her keel on a translant along with the entire crew.

[fritz3000g]

The denominator for all this, to me, is cost. I could have gotten a Beneteau First 32 for just a little more money than my CD 25D.

Neither is really offshore-ready out of the gate. Both I think would need doable upgrades. Given that tradeoff, if I didn't care about trailering my boat the Beneteau seems like a better boat because it's bigger, faster, heavier, and seems to me to be similarly safe in rough conditions. The Beneteau feels more stable because of its form stability, which over time provides a safety advantage because you get less exhausted if it rolls less (I've been in 7ft waves several times and it doesn't really pound). The rigging on the Beneteau is stout, as is the rudder attachment. I don't know about wind vanes. Haven't used them.

Whatever advantages the 25D would have because of its shape I think would be outweighed by the exhaustion of being on a smaller boat in rough conditions for days.

Loaded similarly, it's greater size would allow it to sail upwind much better than the CD25D in a cruising situation.

I realize that the Beneteau could theoretically lose its keel, but that's probably not in the top 10 reasons I'd expect to die offshore on a fixed-keel boat.

Because the CD (at least the 25D) comes at a cost premium, if I had to give up trailerability I don't think I'd chose the CD25D over a Beneteau First 32, offshore or not.

[John Stone]

What started this thread was the keel. So now it's cost. OK. You got me on that one.

But you are still comparing boats of vastly different designs, lengths, beam and displacement etc etc. I wouldn't sail offshore in a CD25 D either but not because it's not capable but because it's just too small for my taste.

If you are going to make comparison make them of the same length or same displacement. No, a Beneteau 32 is not going to be more comfortable than a CD 33 offshore. Not in a million years. It's not going to carry the same amount of gear and equipment. I'd take a CD 30 or CD 31 or Alberg 30 for offshore sailing over a Beneteau 32 any day. But that's just me. That Beneteau will likely tear itself apart extending cruising with multiple long offshore voyages. There are a number of YouTubers who have had their boats fall apart on them. Sailing Uma comes to mind. Great couple. Tough and intrepid. Their Pearson 36 (I think it's a 36) has fallen apart due to the stresses of offshore sailing. They bought a boat simply not up to the task.

Keel falling off. Maybe maybe not. But you know what, when you are exhausted and laying in your bunk and the weather is dog sh#t and getting worse and it's so dark you can't see the water and the boat's rushing along in a rising wind you really want to have complete confidence in your boat. That threshold is different for different people.

You have clearly stated you want a fin keel boat. That's cool. You should get one--though I think what you really want is just a bigger boat. I'd never try to talk someone out of the boat want but I'll take exception if you are simply incorrect about the capabilities you are assigning to them.