motoring into a fresh breeze

[Megunticook]

Wild day on Penobscot Bay yesterday afternoon. I was bringing the family back to Camden from one of the islands in the east bay, fresh breeze out of the WNW blowing 15 and gusting to 20. Forecast had been 5-10 so I hadn't reefed the main. We sailed as far as Lime Island but to cross the bar there needed to go right upwind and not a good place to tack back and forth with the shoals. So I tried motoring but the wind was absolutely howling through the slot there and I was making less than 2 knots with the Yamaha F4 working its hardest. Ended up giving up and going around La Sal instead, which worked out fine.

In 8 years with the Ty Senior never had a situation where the motor couldn't make any headway.

First time I've been seriously over-canvased (had the working jib but the full main was a bit too much during some of the gusts). Ended up easing the mainsheet during the worst gusts so we weren't standing on our ear (my wife and one son get nervous, plus it slows you down). Even spilling half the wind out of the sail we were making over 6 knots during those episodes.

Probably should've gone ahead and reefed but we were 3/4 of the way home before things got wild so I figured we'd just get into the harbor. Worked out fine but it was a wild ride!

So anyway my question is, would a more powerful motor have made any difference? Or when you're going straight into a fresh breeze is that just too much to ask? Curious if others have had that experience.

[Jim Walsh]

I don’t think a more powerful engine would make any difference. Cavitation was stealing your efficiency. Those conditions are where an inboard excels, in comparison. The prop remains in undisturbed water and remains relatively efficient under a much broader range of conditions.

[mgphl52]

So anyway my question is, would a more powerful motor have made any difference? Or when you're going straight into a fresh breeze is that just too much to ask? Curious if others have had that experience.

Short answer, probably not... Long answer, maybe but more power comes with extra weight shifting your fore-aft balance.
You would also have to carry that weight all the time whether you needed the extra power or not.

[John Stone]

My take is a little different. The issue was not being underpowered with too small an engine--rather it was being over powered with too much sail. Sail boats like ours demand reefing when the wind is up. Even on my much larger CD36 the difference between sailing over canvassed, even just a little, and being properly reefed for the conditions makes an amazing difference in speed, comfort, and ease of handling. And reefing the main first, before the jib, is almost always the right choice. The exception is if you have a genoa flying instead of a working jib. Make sure your reefing system is flawless, both in its installation and ease of execution.

As far as too narrow to beat up the channel...probably not. I have beat my boat up some pretty narrow channels, places most others would not attempt. But my boat is set up for it. I can't imagine it takes much room to tack a Ty--if you're properly canvassed and you have practiced it so your skill level is adequate to the task.

So, my thinking is take the time to reef when the situation dictates and remember the old adage, reef as soon as it occurs to you. If you wait till you need it already too late.

[Megunticook]

Thanks for responses. Definitely will reef in that situation in the future. In the past I've always reefed before getting underway, will practice doing it out on the bay. Also need to practice heaving-to.

My main is set up with "jiffy reefing" so it's not hard to do. Jib is hanked on so that's either up or down. I can manage the halyards and both reef lines while standing on the companionway steps and reaching forward, which feels a lot safer than scrambling around on the wet deck when the boat's pitching and rolling.

Totally agree that less canvas is very often faster and more comfortable.

I could probably tack back and forth quickly to get over the bar at Lime Island but man, I'd sure hate to run aground in conditions like the other day. One false move or missed tack could be unfortunate. My family would probably never sail again with me!

And as far as the motor, I gather that I should simply not attempt to try motoring into the teeth of a fresh breeze like that.

One other question--what do you folks do in the moment if an unexpected gust pushes you way over while close-hauled and buries the rail and you just want to stand her back up a bit. Ease the main sheet? Fall off a bit?

[Jim Walsh]

Thanks for responses. Definitely will reef in that situation in the future. In the past I've always reefed before getting underway, will practice doing it out on the bay. Also need to practice heaving-to.

My main is set up with "jiffy reefing" so it's not hard to do. Jib is hanked on so that's either up or down. I can manage the halyards and both reef lines while standing on the companionway steps and reaching forward, which feels a lot safer than scrambling around on the wet deck when the boat's pitching and rolling.

Totally agree that less canvas is very often faster and more comfortable.

I could probably tack back and forth quickly to get over the bar at Lime Island but man, I'd sure hate to run aground in conditions like the other day. One false move or missed tack could be unfortunate. My family would probably never sail again with me!

And as far as the motor, I gather that I should simply not attempt to try motoring into the teeth of a fresh breeze like that.

One other question--what do you folks do in the moment if an unexpected gust pushes you way over while close-hauled and buries the rail and you just want to stand her back up a bit. Ease the main sheet? Fall off a bit?

Ease the main sheet for immediate results….typically called dumping the main.

[Ben Miller]

One other question--what do you folks do in the moment if an unexpected gust pushes you way over while close-hauled and buries the rail and you just want to stand her back up a bit. Ease the main sheet? Fall off a bit?

Or head up into the wind to spill wind from your sails, which is probably what you meant rather than "fall off." That's my personal preference in gusty conditions, rather than fussing with the main sheet. You definitely want to have the mainsheet ready to ease, though.

[Carl Thunberg]

I was out in that wind. It seemed to build very quickly straight out of the NNW on a bright sunny day. Definitely not a sea breeze. I can see how you were caught by surprise. There would have been no reason to reef at the mooring, and it's not so easy maneuvering around with a boat full of people. Don't beat yourself up over this one. Everyone made it home safely and you learned something. That's an unqualified success. Could it have been better? Sure it could. I don't know if you maintain a log book, but I always write down lessons learned in my log book. So far, I haven't written the same "lessons learned" twice.

[fritz3000g]

My experience is that a larger outboard probably would help. I understand the arguments about cavitation, but in high winds on my old boat I found that a larger motor gave me more thrust and speed. It also had a larger prop, which might have been the reason.

Agree with the comments about sail trim. Less is more in high winds.

[Steve Laume]

I have had a couple of situations where I could make very little headway, under power. This is the one time when a bigger engine might help. That is never the case with strong currents. It's just not worth putting up with the negative aspects of a larger, heavier motor for those very few times when it may be useful. If you were making 2 knots then it would have gotten you there. Going around was probably the prudent thing to do. It got you clear of a potentially dangerous area and safely back to the harbor. Dropping the main might have allowed to boat to make better progress under power but then you would have lost your sailing ability as a back up power source.

Seems like you did the right thing by going around. Just practice reefing a bit more so you feel more comfortable with doing it under way.

Now you all have another story to tell with no harm done, Steve.

[John Stone]

Thanks for responses. Definitely will reef in that situation in the future. In the past I've always reefed before getting underway, will practice doing it out on the bay. Also need to practice heaving-to.

My main is set up with "jiffy reefing" so it's not hard to do. Jib is hanked on so that's either up or down. I can manage the halyards and both reef lines while standing on the companionway steps and reaching forward, which feels a lot safer than scrambling around on the wet deck when the boat's pitching and rolling.

Totally agree that less canvas is very often faster and more comfortable.

I could probably tack back and forth quickly to get over the bar at Lime Island but man, I'd sure hate to run aground in conditions like the other day. One false move or missed tack could be unfortunate. My family would probably never sail again with me!

And as far as the motor, I gather that I should simply not attempt to try motoring into the teeth of a fresh breeze like that.

One other question--what do you folks do in the moment if an unexpected gust pushes you way over while close-hauled and buries the rail and you just want to stand her back up a bit. Ease the main sheet? Fall off a bit?

Sounds like you handled it well. We are all learning all the time. I have been sailing all my life and I learn something new almost every time I sail. I think that is one of the great appeals of sailing. There is always going to be new learning opportunities. You can't know it all.

Endeavor to keep the boat under control. You want your family and guests to be safe and to feel safe. Don't take chances. If you can move into the lee of the land, even if a longer route, that is often a wise choice. I have done that many times.

You can feather the boat upwind to reduce pressure on the sails if the area you are sailing permits it, i.e. there is room to weather. Sometimes there is not adequate room so you have to let the main out. When necessary you can let the main backwind along the luff as you sail to keep the boat under control until you have the time or get set up to reef. Always keep the mail sheet accessible and the sheet flaked out so if you need to let the main out the sheet can run through the block without getting kinked. I never coil the main when sailing. I reverse flake it on the cockpit sole so it will run free through the block. That's not to say you can't have it in a bag or bucket. Just make sure it can run freely through the blocks.

Motoring is a funny thing. Some people see it as a safety action and a stress reducer. They feel it gives them more control. I always feel safer and in more control when sailing. The boat is more stable sailing. It handles better. It's quieter. And the rig is less likely to fail than the engine. But you have to have the skill sets that make sailing safer than motoring. There is a time and place for an engine...usually in very restricted water or maneuvering around the dock etc. And of course anytime you make it back home safe then that was a good choice. Embrace learning and you'll go far.

[wikakaru]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, but I've been sailing a lot lately--20 days in July, but who's counting? I was out that day, too. Here's my $.02.

WEATHER
The National Weather Service Marine Forecast for Penobscot Bay that day was way off:

ANZ151-302100-
Penobscot Bay-
257 AM EDT Sat Jul 30 2022

.TODAY...W winds around 5 kt, increasing to around 10 kt. Seas
around 2 ft. Isolated showers early this morning.

I take the marine forecasts for this area with a grain of salt. The forecasts that I find more accurate for this area are the NWS Hourly Forecast Graph and MeteoBlue.com. The NWS graph called for gusts over 20 MPH between 1200 and 1600:

2022-07-30_000003 North Haven Hourly Chart Detailed.png

MeteoBlue called for 11 gusting 23 MPH that afternoon:

2022-07-30 North Haven MeteoBlue Hourly.jpg

It is likely you had an adverse tidal current. The forecast for that day at the nearest prediction station off Ensign Island was for maximum ebb of 0.28 knots at 1546. The Ensign Island station shows the current running roughly north/south up the bay, but it was probably running east/west through that cut, probably much stronger than at Ensign Island because of how narrow and shallow that cut is. The ebb was enhanced by a wind-driven tide which you were also fighting. Then there was the chop and wind. Altogether tough conditions to motor against with a little outboard hanging off the stern.

Lime Island.jpg

NAVIGATION
That could be a dicey cut in the conditions you describe, though at least you had the benefit of a fairly high tide, though it was falling. If the 4-foot rock wasn't breaking in the swell/chop, you had about 1/4 mile to work with, which is a lot of space for a Typhoon; if it was breaking, then your area of passage was only about 0.1 miles, which is a lot less room. The cautious alternatives would have been to go all the way around Lasell Island to the south, or take a detour up through Gilkey Harbor, which would have been a good choice if you wanted to wait until late in the day for the reinforced seabreeze to subside, though Brackett's Channel is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

REEFING
There is an old adage about reefing: "The time to reef is when you first think about it." Put another way, if you are wondering if you should reef, the answer is always YES.

If for some reason you find yourself overpowered and can't or won't reef there are three things you can do: feather up into the wind in the puffs to reduce the drive on the sails; ease sheets (usually the mainsheet) in the puffs until the mainsail luffs; and/or flatten the sails by increasing halyard tension (with the Typhoon do this using the boom downhaul instead of halyard), increasing outhaul tension, and increasing backstay tension if you have added an adjustable backstay (though not many Typhoons except die-hard racers have that). I have sometimes heard it said that flattening the sail in this manner is like taking "half a reef". Too few sailors use these controls to good effect if at all.

My Typhoon still has the original backstay pendant to support the boom, and reefing in any kind of blow is a real pain, perhaps even dangerous. With a proper topping lift like I have on my CD22, reefing is just a matter of heaving-to and it's no biggie. If you don't have a topping lift it might be a good addition.

ENGINE
I don't know if your prop was cavitating under those conditions, but moving weight aft is helpful. I sit on the poop deck when I am motoring, and if you had your family aboard, moving them aft in the cockpit would have been a good idea to keep the prop as low in the water as possible.

Assuming you could keep your prop submerged, it certainly wouldn't have hurt in those conditions to have some more horsepower. Most manufacturers of engines in that size range use the same block for the 4 and 6 HP models, so it wouldn't be any extra weight to move up to a 6. The drawback (aside from cost) is that you lose some low-speed maneuvering ability, because the 6 has more thrust at idle speed, and I found the difference enough that I preferred the smaller size. If you do more low speed maneuvering than high wind motoring, stick with the smaller one, if not, go for the bigger one. If it were me I'd stick with the 4 HP and concentrate on the things that would help me sail better in those conditions instead of relying on an outboard to motor into a big wind.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[Megunticook]

Very useful tips everyone, thanks.

It didn't sound like my prop was cavitating, just couldn't make headway against the wind and current at the bar by Lime Island. I think going around Lasell was the right decision. I made a run at the bar but it was just too much.

Just curious, those of you that sail Pen Bay what's your take on crossing that bar at low tide? I've done it before in calmer conditions but once I remember seeing a pretty large rock as I passed through--hard to gauge how close to the surface it was but it made me nervous. I only draw 3 1/2 feet so I'm probably OK there, and I know people who cross at any tide, but I generally avoid the 2-hour window straddling low tide. I think the shallowest depth my sounder ever read there was 5 feet--that's when I start to think about a big ol' rock lurking under there.

You're right, it was a little uncomfortable at times for a couple family members (even I get a little tense involuntarily when she heels more than 25 degrees) but at least the experience showed them that the boat won't capsize even when overcanvassed in a fresh breeze. Of course you can know that in your head and still feel very uneasy--I remember having a white knuckle grip once when a guy took me out sailing on San Francisco Bay back in high school when I had zero experience.

When we got back to Camden Harbor, a 25-foot boat with a big old outboard came along the float shortly after us and my wife--who is all about renewable energy and climate action--said only half joking "I would trade boats with them in a New York minute."

Funny thing is my older son, who was often at the tiller, loves sailing in those conditions and was cool as a cucumber the whole time.

Good reminder not to rely too heavily on weather forecasts and be prepared for anything. Given that situation again I would reef as soon as the wind started piping up so nobody gets uncomfortable.

You know who probably had the worst experience of all? The dog--he was lying on the floor down below panting the entire time. He does that anyway, but I'm sure when he was pressed up against the side of the berth he was thinking to himself "am I going to die?" Poor guy.

[wikakaru]

Just curious, those of you that sail Pen Bay what's your take on crossing that bar at low tide? I've done it before in calmer conditions but once I remember seeing a pretty large rock as I passed through--hard to gauge how close to the surface it was but it made me nervous. I only draw 3 1/2 feet so I'm probably OK there, and I know people who cross at any tide, but I generally avoid the 2-hour window straddling low tide. I think the shallowest depth my sounder ever read there was 5 feet--that's when I start to think about a big ol' rock lurking under there.

Now I'm confused. You draw 3 1/2 feet? Your little blurb on the left of your posts says you have a Typhoon. They only draw 2'7".

For what it's worth, the Navionics Sonar charts (go to ActiveCaptain.garmin.com) for the area show 6 feet through that area. I don't think I believe that. The Google satellite photos of the area are pretty useless, but the Bing maps show some good detail.

I'd err on the side of caution, but if that's a spot that you like to transit often then I'd suggest that you take a trip over there on a calm day at dead low tide, approach slowly, and see what's what. I have done that with some dicey places I transit, and it provides me with much more confidence than relying on the chart. Surveying by dinghy is a a safer option if you can leave someone in the "big" boat (if you can say that of a Typhoon) to stand off while you survey.

Smooth sailing,

Jim