25D vs. 27

[Dick Kobayashi]

One book that is relevant that has not been mentioned is Don Casey's Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach Paperback – October 1, 1990 . Available for not much money from Amazon. This book is a gem and gently suggests that one go with what you have or can get now and also has more specific suggestions. While prose, it is really more like poetry. I used it as a philosophical guide to sailing for years. A good companion to Vigor's works.

[csoule13]

On page five, and I can't quite figure out where we are in all of this, vis a vis one of these boats going offshore, but as a CD27 owner:
- The best thing someone once told me is that 27 is the biggest of the small CDs, and the 28 is the smallest of the big CDs. The first time a CD28 owner on this forum came aboard my 27, he was stunned by how much smaller it was.

- There is basically no significant tankage onboard. The fuel tank, water tank, holding, are just small. Is there space to expand these? Sure, but then you're cutting into storage space for other things.

- It's a wet boat, at least without a dodger of some kind. My sportiest sail was in 25 kts on the Chesapeake. We were happy it was July and the water was warm. Nobody was dry. Everyone was having fun, though.

- I wouldn't want to be on the boat for an extended period of time with more than two additional people, and I'd have to really get along with them, and one of them would have to be on the smaller size. One of the berths is roughly 6'x2'. The other loses about 8 inches in length due to the galley(such as it is). That can be fixed, obviously, but it's another thing to consider.

- The stock engine on these is an 8 hp toaster oven that struggles to move the boat in any kind of lively water. A little wind and current working against you, and it's a long, noisy experience to go anywhere.

- While I'm sure folks have been creative here, storing a tender on deck for offshore passage would be a challenge.

- I *love* my boat and how it sails, but there is no money in the world where I'd take this boat to the Caribbean unless it's short island hops through the Bahamas. Even then, probably not.

At the end of the day, I look at what someone like Sam Holmes is doing, and think roughly the same thing when I see professional musicians slogging in the trenches. You can absolutely go and do these things, but it takes a level of commitment and dedication I don't have. Additionally, I think there's a difference between making mods to squeeze the best out of a craft, and trying to make it something it isn't. John Stone's work shows what the absolute best a CD36 can be. I think Sam Holmes shows the upper end of a CD28.

[fritz3000g]

One book that is relevant that has not been mentioned is Don Casey's Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach Paperback – October 1, 1990 .

Thanks Dick! I've read that book before but not recently. Just reserved it from the library again.

On page five, and I can't quite figure out where we are in all of this, vis a vis one of these boats going offshore, but as a CD27 owner:

Thanks for bringing us back to the topic at hand. We've strayed in a few directions which I've found really helpful. Good to be brought back on task

I *love* my boat and how it sails, but there is no money in the world where I'd take this boat to the Caribbean unless it's short island hops through the Bahamas. Even then, probably not.

At the end of the day, I look at what someone like Sam Holmes is doing, and think roughly the same thing when I see professional musicians slogging in the trenches. You can absolutely go and do these things, but it takes a level of commitment and dedication I don't have. Additionally, I think there's a difference between making mods to squeeze the best out of a craft, and trying to make it something it isn't. John Stone's work shows what the absolute best a CD36 can be. I think Sam Holmes shows the upper end of a CD28.

This is great feedback, especially coming from a CD 27 owner. It fits what I've heard from others in this thread.

I do like watching Sam Holmes' videos in part because we have so much in common, both in the approach we take to construction projects and in our desire to take risks and have adventures (though I don't think I'll ever want to put my life online).

Maybe someday I'll find an adventurous sailor who'll want to have an adventure with me and push some limits. It's hard for me to guess about that till I've been on a trip and in heavy seas in a CD27 myself. Maybe I'll love the experience. Maybe not.

It seems very possible that I'll grow content to sail the Lakes and coastal waters. It's also possible that someday I'll want to take a dream trip or two and will procure a boat for that purpose.

Some of the best feedback I've heard here is that I don't have to decide that just yet. There can be more than one boat in my future.

The near-term decision I think is whether I can (and want to) tow a CD 27. I've got a couple years to decide that one too, which is good given:

• the prices of used vehicles right now
• the significant improvements in towing capacities and fuel economy in trucks starting in 2019 or so (some of which will come up for sale used in a couple of years).

[fritz3000g]

I had a wonderful tour of a Cape Dory 27 yesterday (thanks Jim!) and was very impressed.

A few things I learned:

• Slip and storage fees are expensive. They would likely exceed the cost of a truck and trailer after about 10 years.
• Polishing external teak is a big annual job. Letting it go gray will require replacement every 15 or so years. Unless it's a labor of love (which is is for many), this is a downside to CDs compared to boats which don't use external wood.
• A 27 could sleep 4 comfortably for a weekend, though shuffling gear around could get annoying. A 25D could sleep 3 comfortably for a weekend.
• Standing headroom is amazing! Compared to my Mac 25, spending a weekend aboard with another person would feel like luxury.
• The boat can handle much more than the passengers can. Rough conditions on Lake Michigan are not fun, but never feel unsafe.
• A quality under-deck piston-driven autopilot should last for many years if you reef appropriately.
• I need to meet people who've raised large masts themselves. For those who haven't done it, it seems like a crazy thing to do.

[Jim Walsh]

“ Letting it go gray will require replacement every 15 or so years.”

Is there a basis for this assertion?

[fritz3000g]

“ Letting it go gray will require replacement every 15 or so years.” Is there a basis for this assertion?

An anecdote. There was another boat in the harbor we visited that took this approach. They had to replace their teak after about 15 years. This may relate to climate - Wisconsin gets pretty cold.

I know that John Vigor recommends letting it go. I wonder if others in cold climates have had different experiences.

[John Stone]

“ Letting it go gray will require replacement every 15 or so years.”

Is there a basis for this assertion?

Yep. I am with Jim W on this one. With a few caveats the assertion to a 15 year life span for teak left untreated is simply not true.

Burmese teak which is what was used on the original boats, and the only kind of teak you should use above deck, will last longer than you will. If it was replaced with a teak substitute like Plantation Teak or Philippine Teak all bets are off.

If varnished or treated with some other protective coating it might last a hundred years or longer. Maybe indefinitely. Left without a coating it might still last that long if you maintain it. There is a lot of pollution in the air. Dirt, soot, sand, jet fuel, exhaust from cars and from industry. It settles on the boat and the wood and attacks the wood fibers. You can't let those chemicals (acid rain) remain on the wood.

Use a wash cloth to lightly scrub it when you wash down the boat. I'd say at least once per month. Never use a brush to scrub it. You'll create grooves in the grain which with trap dirt and grime and that will lead to a deterioration of the teak's physical structure. Occasionally, if the wash cloth scrubbing doesn't clean it you can add a little dawn or joy soap and a small amount of diluted bleach to the soapy water. Scrub gently and rinse. It's better for the wood if you can wash it down with saltwater if it's clean water. Treated as such it will last. But, it may be the teak that comes with the boat was not treated well. That's a hurtle you'll have to deal with when you get there. I might add though unless it is in truly horrible shape you can do a lot to bring teak back to life if you know what you are doing.

To know know all there is to know about maintaining teak and other woods on a boat read Rebecca Whitman, Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood. She is an expert.

Something I will mention. Be careful of your sources. Sail.net and Cruiser Forum and Sailing Anarchy are chockablock with blowhards espousing all kinds of lousy info. You are better off reading from well known published authors who's material is vetted and who are widely acknowledged as experts. It's especially important to find experienced people who sail boats like your or who have set their boats up in a manner similar to what you desire.

A couple mentors who have proven to be experts and you have learned to trust are very helpful. And you are going to make mistakes because what you think you want may not be what you want when you get it, or install it, or use it, or whatever. That's just life. But you can save yourself a lot of grief and expense by being very select on your sources of info. You are going to be unhappy if you desire the simplicity of the Pardey's but let Nigel Calder influence your electrical systems...or vice versa. Keep your sources aligned with your philosophies. Beware of people who blather on about their experience but never leave the dock.

The Cape Dory forum is probably the best of the owners forums. We don't always agree but you'll rarely get advice or recommendations that are simply wrong. This is the only forum I frequent on a daily or weekly basis. When I am looking for something specific I might take a gander on the other forums but the yammering is all over the place and usually not helpful. So pick your sources carefully.

Practical Sailor magazine (also on-line)is probably the best single source for a wide range of topics. I have subscribed for 25 years. They are not infallible but at least you know what the testing criteria were fir each product reviewed. And they don't take advertisers.

If you want a list of useful books I recommend, here is a link http://www.farreachvoyages.com/library.html. I'm sure other forum members are happy to share their recommendations too.

And because I am just one person with an opinion you can throw out everything I just said.

[fritz3000g]

Great info on the teak. Thanks for sharing John! I'm glad I mentioned what I'd heard so I could get that feedback.

If you want a list of useful books I recommend, here is a link http://www.farreachvoyages.com/library.html. I'm sure other forum members are happy to share their recommendations too.

Looking forward to doing some more reading I love how many books there are about sailing. Twice now I've thought I've been through all the good ones only to find more.

The Cape Dory forum is probably the best of the owners forums. We don't always agree but you'll rarely get advice or recommendations that are simply wrong.

So far I've been very impressed. You all are sharp. I was serious earlier when I suggested that paying more for a CD just to be able to discuss it on this forum seems like a worthwhile investment.

FYI, I've reached out to Good Old Boat to see if I can connect with the person who has that 27 on a trailer, and they responded that they're on the case. I'm very interested to talk with someone who's tried it. Some things seem harder than they are if you haven't tried it. Some things really are that hard. I hope I can find out in this case without having to be the guinea pig.

[Paul D.]

I second much of what John mentions. I have found that published authors' stuff over the years tends to be very helpful. And with an eye toward some local advice from around the marina DIY'ers usually these sources will get you where you want to go with boat projects, techniques or decisions on new boat characteristics etc.

I'll never forget the old, heavily accented Sheboygan surveyor that I used 20 years ago when we bought our boat who said, "99% of all the sailing book advice is BS - (thoughtful look up, and to the left) Except for Don Casey. He is only 70% BS."

Mind you, he told me in no uncertain terms to immediately remove the 35lb CQR because it was too big for the boat. I ignored his advice and have used that anchor ever since with great results...

[John Stone]

I second much of what John mentions. I have found that published authors' stuff over the years tends to be very helpful. And with an eye toward some local advice from around the marina DIY'ers usually these sources will get you where you want to go with boat projects, techniques or decisions on new boat characteristics etc.

I'll never forget the old, heavily accented Sheboygan surveyor that I used 20 years ago when we bought our boat who said, "99% of all the sailing book advice is BS - (thoughtful look up, and to the left) Except for Don Casey. He is only 70% BS."

Mind you, he told me in no uncertain terms to immediately remove the 35lb CQR because it was too big for the boat. I ignored his advice and have used that anchor ever since with great results...

Hahahaha. What a great story!

[fritz3000g]

... and so after five pages we arrive at one of the central debates of our time.

Do you trust the faraway expert you'll probably never meet, or the person you know and who might be the one to catch your dockline when you arrive home in a squall?

When I've erred in my life on this question, it's usually been to trust the expert. I might have gotten the better information, but in the process of not trusting the person in front of me I've lost the friend or mentor.

This came up for me in racing this year. I've read the polars and I know we should switch to the asymmetrical spinnaker. But the old salt who's been on crew for 20 years doesn't agree. This time I wisely said "That's ok - maybe we can try the asym another time."

[Paul D.]

There are no policies(besides reef early and often) more like guidelines in sailing. Sort of like the Pirate Code!

[fritz3000g]

There are no policies(besides reef early and often) more like guidelines in sailing. Sort of like the Pirate Code!

Love it!

[Dick Kobayashi]

Susan B, my 1983 25D, never had ANYTHING done to her teak until I sold her in Fall 2020. And the teak was in excellent condition. Bright looking teak is something some owners fancy, not something the wood requires...and that is the true beauty of teak. The brightwork books are for owners with slave crews or varnish fetishists.

Fritz, you are on the right track and on the right forum. This thread will benefit many over the years to come.

I do have a suggestion which may or may not have any relevance. You might consider home porting your CD in a different location in/around the GLs each year (starting with your current home port, perhaps). Thus gaining familiarity with the GLs, the greatest inland sea anywhere.

Up to you, of course, but my sense is that you are getting ready to get started and I humbly suggest you will find it easier to do so if you have a way to put off the expense of truck and trailer for a while. Hey! The main thing is gaining experience sailing a CD, correct? Then, all else will follow. Soooooooo......

[fritz3000g]

The brightwork books are for owners with slave crews or varnish fetishists.

Well I ordered the Whitman book, so hopefully there will be a chapter in there about a low-maintenance approach. Hopefully it'll be a short chapter

Up to you, of course, but my sense is that you are getting ready to get started and I humbly suggest you will find it easier to do so if you have a way to put off the expense of truck and trailer for a while. Hey! The main thing is gaining experience sailing a CD, correct? Then, all else will follow. Soooooooo......

I've been starting to think along similar lines, meaning waiting to buy a truck for a few years after purchasing a boat.

A trailer would be very nice, even if I don't own a truck. I'm aware of Marinas that charge 1/4 the cost if you keep your boat (rigged) on the hard and launch each time. My uncle launches a 2000 lb boat with a Honda Fit, so I know that if you set things up right it's possible to launch a boat with a vehicle that's not even close to being suitable for distance towing. I could also probably borrow a truck to get the boat somewhere with free or cheap storage winter storage. So.. regardless of whether I move the boat frequently in the early years one that came with a trailer would be very appealing.

Right now I'm starting to get a feel for the market, and am open to the deal-of-a-lifetime (with a trailer). In two years I think I'll probably start being open to compromises.

This thread will benefit many over the years to come.

That would be great!