25D vs. 27

[fmueller]

Jim,

Thanks for your reply.

I think there is a substantial difference in adverse weather handling between my boat and your boat ... thats all I'm saying.

My 27 may be marginally better than certain other boats (of similar size) in adverse conditions, but from first hand observation (sailing Narragansett Bay with other familiar boats) I actually think that's mostly hyperbole. I have a nearby slip mate at RIYC who has a Catalina 28.5. I've sailed around the bay many times with him nearby (he single-hands almost all the time, as I do) and he never looks any more pressed than I am on really fresh days. If anything I reef before he does.

I have a friend at RIYC who has a Pacific Seacraft 34 and that boat is clearly rungs up the ladder from my 27 as an open ocean boat. It's just so very obvious when you step aboard. I go right by him in 10 knots any point of sail, but in 20 knots he's just coming into the sweet spot of an incredibly robust rig and hull, and then he gets going - I can't catch him at all. Never mind if we are south of Bretton Reef (we've done a few tandem jaunts) and there's actual wind AND waves. It's a cutter and he easily flies the full rig in 20 knots. I suspect he can actually sail in a gale, triple reefed with just the staysail, as opposed to just running off. If I had the time, energy, and gumption (ie another lifetime), that might be a boat I'd choose to cross oceans.

edit: Tim - if I get a new main I have the same in mind ... Walter Hobbs got a nice new main from Quantum, Bristol ... loose footed for his 27.

[Sea Hunt Video]

I lack the sailing experience and expertise of Franz, Fred, Mike, Jim, Tim and others who have commented or will comment on the pluses and minuses of various sailboats, rigs, configurations, etc. From my experience on this board their advise is hard earned and well worth considering. They know of what they speak.

I would, however, most respectfully suggest [ ] that my tiny, little suggestion of a 5 gallon fresh water shower bag hung from the boom would work on any one of the many sailboats referenced in the above posts. It is uniquely configured to be attached at any point along the boom from near the companion way to well aft near the tiller/wheel. It works at any hour of the day or night and can be operated by one person alone, or, as I preferred, with me assisting The Admiral in her shower routine. Finally, and not to put too fine a point on it, at $17 or less, it allows for those of us with very limited "boat funds" to allocate those funds to more important sailboat equipment, such as "medicinal" Guinness.

[fmueller]

Roberto !

Let me understand this exactly ... you hang this from the boom ... and then ... shower ... right there in the cockpit ... in the anchorage?

(You could probably sell tickets to supplement the Guinness fund).

I'm sure it's a wonderful thing. The PO left me one actually. Haven't tried it yet in 7 years (guess I'm a pig).

Many months of the year up here in New England and you could argue that is "doubles" as a block ice maker - for your ice box?

But Florida is a long way to sail just to have a shower.

[fritz3000g]

I hear a bit of a debate for whether a full keeled boat is better than a deeper-draft fin-keeled boat in a blow.

I would choose my CD31 over a fin keel boat of a similar size because I want something which tracks well and is less prone to quick movements as the weather deteriorates.

I think there is a substantial difference in adverse weather handling between my boat and your boat ... thats all I'm saying.
My 27 may be marginally better than certain other boats (of similar size) in adverse conditions, but from first hand observation (sailing Narragansett Bay with other familiar boats) I actually think that's mostly hyperbole. I have a nearby slip mate at RIYC who has a Catalina 28.5. I've sailed around the bay many times with him nearby (he single-hands almost all the time, as I do) and he never looks any more pressed than I am on really fresh days. If anything I reef before he does.

I don't really have an opinion on that question. Practically though, since I want to trailer a full keel is probably my only real and affordable option for an offshore boat.

I also hear fmueller suggesting (apologize if I'm mischaracterizing) that somewhere between 7500 and 10000 lbs displacement (Dana 24, Beneteau First 32, presumably also the NorSea 27) sailboats begin to reach a level of hardiness that they can sail tolerably well in rough seas, at least in his experience. @fmueller does that approximate your point of view?

Does anyone else have experience with boats (particularly CDs) less than 7500 lbs in rough seas who could comment on how you feel about the experience?

I'd be fine with something where I have to heave-to when gusts exceed 35 knots, but if that limit were 30 knots that would get old. Or if I couldn't make at least 2 knots VMG upwind with 25 sustained that would also get old fast.

I (and my crew) don't mind going without a shower for a few days, showering in the cockpit while underway, or eating granola bars if I can't cook in a given sea-state. In a boat that size (based on experience) I'd expect to spend most nights in marinas rather than at anchor, at least with crew aboard. Trade-offs for trailerability.

[Dick Kobayashi]

There is plenty of expertise on this board, but please note all of the posts (back to the beginning of time) by our dear John Vigor. For years he had a 25D on Puget sound and loved it. He included it in his memorable "20 Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere", but later he upgraded to a 27 which he sailed around Vancouver Island alone. Remember, this is the guy who fled South Africa with his family in a 30 foot sailboat and landed in Florida. He knows something about small sail boats.

I highly recommend going through his posts on this board.

For your purposes I'd go with the 27. 50% more displacement cannot be beat. I loved my 25D but I was a very modest coastal cruiser for a bit more serious work I'd go with the 27. btw a semi forgotten classic about a 27 is "London Goes to Sea."

FW

[fritz3000g]

please note all of the posts (back to the beginning of time) by our dear John Vigor.

Will do thanks!

[wikakaru]

Hi there,

I'm getting a little closer to buying my dream boat. Couple of years out still, and still debating between the 27 and 25D (and a couple others).

I'd really like to be able to get by with a reasonable-sized tow vehicle, which seems possible with the 25D but less so with the 27. I understand the challenges with launching heavy boats and am prepared for them.

The one thing I'm unsure of is how fundamentally different the two boats are for moderate offshore passages (up to 10 days) other than just in cabin space? The comfort ratio of the 27 is about 30% better. It would be a little faster. Are those the main differences?

Jeremiah

Jeremiah,

I'm sure you've found lots of helpful information on this site already, but I think the advice you receive would be even more useful if you were more explicit about your cruising plans. I firmly believe that the most important thing when choosing a boat is picking one that is appropriate for what it is you intend to do with it. It's like the old adage, "use the right tool for the job."

I suggest that you take some time and think about what it is you really intend to do with the boat, and also how what you will be doing will change over time. For example, is the 10-day passage you mention a once-in-a-lifetime dream trip to Bermuda, after which you will trailer the boat to various other coastal cruising destinations? If so, what are those other destinations?

Several hugely important factors in the decision are: how long a period of time you intend to live aboard; what area you intend to cruise; what is the length, location, and time of year of passages; how old are the crew; and how many people will be aboard? The longer the duration of time you intend to spend on the boat, and the more people you have aboard, and the older they are, the more important simple amenities become. A young, fit single-hander on a two week cruise can handle a rustic small boat, but an older couple on a multi-year cruise are going to need some creature comforts. Larger boats obviously have more space for more amenities. Sure, you can use a bag-hung shower for a week's cruise, but doing that every day of your life for years is a different story. The same thing is true across all the boat's systems.

So being honest (especially with yourself) about what you intend the boat to be used for is really critical.

Also, you mentioned buying your "dream boat". I would caution you that you may want to consider the possibility of having multiple (one at a time) "dream boats". For example, people at the beginning of their cruising life are likely to cruise the Intracoastal Waterway, the Florida Keys, and the northern Bahamas. All of those areas are best suited to smaller shoal-draft boats, and less expensive mass production boats are certainly an option. People after that often "spread their wings" and head to the Caribbean, for which a different boat would be ideal. Crossing the Atlantic or South Pacific? That is probably a different boat altogether. Think about what you are going to do in the first year, get the boat for that, and then re-evaluate and maybe trade up (or down) to a different boat for the next phase. Just a suggestion.

That said, given the information you have already provided, here is what I can offer: You mention both trailering and making 10-day offshore passages. Those objectives are, if not mutually exclusive, at least very difficult to accommodate together. One boat that comes to mind for both of those purposes is the Nor'sea 27, a proper sea-going boat that is also trailerable by larger pickup trucks. Someone else mentioned the Dana 24, which would also be a good choice for a smaller boat. The Cape Dory 25D and 27 could work for 10-day passages, but are less suitable for offshore work as these other boats.

The thing about a 10-day passage, regardless of where you are going, is that you can only get a decent weather forecast for the first 3 days or so. After that, anything can happen, and you and the boat have to be prepared for it.

Offshore boats typically have subtle differences from other boats that many people do not know to look for. One example is cockpit design and construction. Small cockpits with huge scuppers that drain quickly when waves break over the side or stern of the boat are important, as are high bridge decks that keep all that water from going down below. Cape Dory cockpits tend to be on the largish side for offshore sailing, and the scuppers tend to be quite small. You can certainly make the cockpit well smaller and install more and larger scuppers. Fortunately, Alberg was good at designing proper bridge decks in his boats. Companionways should have vertical sides instead of slanted, because on slanted-side companionways if a hatch board lifts up just small amount, for example under the impact of a wave, it will pop through the opening, while a companionway with vertical sides requires the boards to be lifted all the way to the top of the companionway opening before it will come out. Although the CD25D and CD27's companionway sides are not vertical, they are, at least, not as bad as many large-scale production boats; the addition of proper sturdy barrel-boats on both sides of each hatch board may be an adequate precaution. Those are just a few examples of the thousands of tiny touches that separate boats designed for offshore sailing from those designed for coastal sailing.

There are a number of old but good books that will help point out some of these things to look for. Hal Roth's "After 50,000 Miles" comes to mind. Steve and Linda Dashew's "The Circumnavigator's Handbook" is another. I'm sure at least one other CD board regular will chastise me if I don't suggest Lin and Larry Pardey's "The Self-Sufficient Sailor".

Sorry for the long answer. Good luck in your decision.

Smooth sailing,

Jim

[fritz3000g]

Found one post by John Vigor that looks very informative. Still searching through, and I've ordered a couple of his books.

http://capedory.org/board/viewtopic.php ... 5d#p111499

Responses to Jim's fantastic thoughts and questions:

I suggest that you take some time and think about what it is you really intend to do with the boat, and also how what you will be doing will change over time. For example, is the 10-day passage you mention a once-in-a-lifetime dream trip to Bermuda, after which you will trailer the boat to various other coastal cruising destinations? If so, what are those other destinations?

What a great question! This is the core challenge for me (as I'm sure it is for most people), and one that makes me grateful that I've got a couple of years before making a decision and some time to shop around.

So far in life I've focused on achieving things, including meeting career goals, starting businesses, having adventures, etc... That's been fine, and is part of why I can retire early. But I'm really more of a people person, and am happier when I can focus on kids, friends, family, etc... I anticipate continuing to have adventures and try things and might want to do some single-handing, but I'd mostly like to have my adventures with other people. Most of those adventures will need to happen locally here on the Great Lakes so my people can come, but I expect I'll be able to entice a few people (one at a time if necessary) to do some broader exploring with me.

I'm 41 years old now, living in Madison, WI. I anticipate a few phases to my sailing career, but am fully aware that my ideas will change depending on what life offers:

• 42-45: Continuing to sail my Mac 25, race with others, take classes (local sailing club), and perhaps crew on other cruising boats as opportunity arises (feel free to PM me if you're looking for experienced youngish crew).
• 46-55: Adventuring and mentoring in early retirement. Exploring new horizons with friends, family, and teens/YAs I work with who need a coming-of-age experience. Trips around the Great Lakes, San Juans, Chesapeake, Bahamas. Primarily limited in what I can do by being a dad, though maybe not if my (now 7 year old) daughter takes to sailing. At some point my parents might need me to be nearby.
• 56-66: Wife retires and daughter finishes high school. More free time. Continuing taking trips and mentoring, maybe a few more trips with wife or daughter, maybe not. So far they enjoy sailing but aren't really taking an active interest. Would like to add Caribbean to list. >3 day offshore trips would only include experienced crew. No plans for ocean crossings.
• 66+: Probably transition to trips just in a single location to avoid trailering and rigging as I age. Maybe share a boat with someone I've raced with over the years. Most likely great lakes but who knows. Potentially larger crew. Maybe different boat. Maybe cross an ocean. Who really knows.

People after that often "spread their wings" and head to the Caribbean, for which a different boat would be ideal.

Right. This is really helpful feedback. Maybe I'll want to spread my wings and focus on extending the horizon, but it's also possible that I won't. Some depends on if/how the mentoring thing really pans out, and the extent to which my friends and family want to participate (and where they want to go). It's pretty likely I'll want to continue sailing locally on the Great Lakes while occasionally taking trips to the coast and offshore. All of this seems to point me towards maximum flexibility.

The biggest question might be whether I can include the Caribbean on my list, or if I need to let that go. I'm not inclined to buy a boat specifically to go there, but of course that could change. One reason I'm able to retire early is due to frugality, and the math for that doesn't work unless I keep working longer. If I do buy a non-trailerable boat I'll probably want to keep it on Lake Michigan. If I do go to the Caribbean, it would likely (but maybe not) be on short notice, once the right crew person makes themselves known or my daughter takes a semester off.

One thing that you mentioned which seems counterintuitive to me is taking a smaller boat to the Bahamas but then a larger one to the Caribbean. In the Caribbean it's my understanding I could mostly stay in marinas or mooring fields near marinas, which would reduce the need for creature comforts. In the Bahamas you're often alone in a small remote anchorage, so I think I'd want a big comfortable floating RV for that. Am I misunderstanding the nature of those destinations?

One boat that comes to mind for both of those purposes is the Nor'sea 27, a proper sea-going boat that is also trailerable by larger pickup trucks. Someone else mentioned the Dana 24, which would also be a good choice for a smaller boat. The Cape Dory 25D and 27 could work for 10-day passages, but are less suitable for offshore work as these other boats.

You've hit the tradeoffs I'm wrestling with right on the nose. Norsea and Dana are more expensive to buy and own. Norsea, Dana, or CD 27 would require a more expensive (to buy and operate) vehicle that I'd always feel guilty about using as my daily driver.

Things that would solve my problems:

• A way to confidently refit a CD 25D so as to be safe to take to the Caribbean.
• A definitive "no" that a CD 25D or 27 can't go the Caribbean.
• A good deal on a NorSea 27.
• A way to cost-effectively transport a heavy (but trailer-legal) boat 2000 miles over land.
• A way to affordably rent a truck for towing for a month at a time.
• A place to find reliable used trucks with 10k+ towing capacity affordably.
• A boat teleporter. That would help a lot.

[Dick Kobayashi]

The Vigor Thread from 2008 warmed my heart. A few follow-on thoughts.

- There is more than one dream boat. There is a dream boat for where you are plus environs where you can build skills and share them with family and friends. Consider a dream boat for where you are now and buy it and use it NOW. (Tempus Fugit and all that...)

- There is the Dream Boat for elsewhere (carib, Maine coast, Puget sound, etc.). Forget about it! (for now). Charter or sail with friends in these places while owning Dream Boat #1 above.

- Then after five years have passed and you have had ownership and captaincy of a CD on the Lakes and charter experiences or similar on North America's best cruising grounds and you are retired and your daughter is a HS grad, and, and, and...you will be well positioned to decide on the next Dream Boat. The combination of experience, preferences of friends and family, finance and health all go in to the calculation. And these calculations are dynamic not static.

You are fortunate to be able to think about this at your current age.

[Carl Thunberg]

Wow, dialing back at 66? There are a lot of good sailing years ahead of you at 66.

[fritz3000g]

- There is more than one dream boat. There is a dream boat for where you are plus environs where you can build skills and share them with family and friends. Consider a dream boat for where you are now and buy it and use it NOW. (Tempus Fugit and all that...)

I love it! My current Mac 25 is my dream boat for while I work. I can rig it in 20 minutes and go sailing after work.

CD or similar sure seems like a good fit for the next phase.

You are fortunate to be able to think about this at your current age.

Thanks! I've talked with others who retired early and the thing I keep hearing is that the whole "desire to escape thing" basically goes away once you no longer have a stressful job. Many people who thought they wanted to travel the world stop wanting that once there's nothing to escape from.

It's hard for me to admit that I can't see around the corner, but I'll try and keep reminding myself of that. Thanks for the tips!

[John Stone]

We are overlanding in Michigan in our Jeep. Just crossed back over the Mackinac Bridge and are spending the night I. A state park. Snuggled down in our camper top. Lake Michigan waves pounding on the shore 50' away. Fabulous time dispersed camping and driving some challenging 4x4 trails on the Keweenaw Peninsula. Dispersed camping as much as we can in the National and state Forests. However, I can't wait to get back to the Far Reach.

Where to begin? I'll leave it to others to debate the merits of the 25D vs 27. But I can make a few comments. Sailing up wind in 25-30 knots on somewhat protected water and in the early phases of a blow is far different then trying the same thing 1000 miles offshore when the wind has had 24-48 hours to shape the seas. You're talking 10-14' waves. You won't be sailing up wind like that for long on anything under 40'-45'... not unless you are forced to do so.

Ocean sailing all comes down to not only the ruggedness of the boat's ability to withstand unrelenting forces on the boat's keel, hull deck joint, rig, sails, hardware but also the crew. Not everyone reacts the same. A few people have cast iron dispositions regardless the seastate. Everyone else deals with the motion and discomfort in various ways. Your strategy and tactics are based on the most affected person. If your wife is puking her guts out or you are puking your guts out the whole debate about which boat points highest in 25 kts is simply academic.

How comfortable your boat is offshore for YOU will decide how eager you are to go back to sea. The difference in comfort between sailing upwind in 30 kts vs broad reaching or running is an order of magnitude.

I'll take my CD over any other boat out there in her size range. She is tough, reasonably fast, bone dry and relatively comfortable. But I am not going to beat upwind offshore in 35 knts. Unless my life depended on it. I have close reached for several days in 25-35 kts and it was not fun. To sail upwind in those conditions your talking 45' boat minimum and it's still not fun. So forget it. Also, upwind sailing offshore when the seas are getting big and the wind is over 25 kts can be hard on the boat and especially the rig and sails. You're always trying to protect the crew and the boat especially rig, sails, rudder. Having said all that there is no place wold be afraid to take her except into the ice. I am quite confident she could handle the roaring 40s though I don't know if I could.

Your not going to want to stay in marinas in the caribbean because A, they are shockingly expensive and B, hot and buggy unless you have AC. Anchoring out is the way to go. It's where all the sailors worth meeting are anyway.

Most of the boats I saw in Caribbean that made ocean crossings from Europe were in the 30-38' range. American boats tend to be bigger.

I have a great sit down sitz tub but I agree with Roberto--many if not most of my showers in the Caribbean anyway are with a solar sun shower in the cockpit.

[fritz3000g]

Thanks John for the great feedback, both on sailing offshore and on how to plan for the Caribbean!

Sailing up wind in 25-30 knots on somewhat protected water and in the early phases of a blow is far different then trying the same thing 1000 miles offshore when the wind has had 24-48 hours to shape the seas. You're talking 10-14' waves. You won't be sailing up wind like that for long on anything under 40'-45'... not unless you are forced to do so.

I have close reached for several days in 25-35 kts and it was not fun. To sail upwind in those conditions your talking 45' boat minimum and it's still not fun.

I realize the point you're making is largely that beating upwind into offshore gales is a bad deal in all boats, but I'm also curious why you describe boat length as the key feature when determining whether you'd be willing to beat in waves in a given boat as opposed to, say, displacement or comfort ratio? I realize those things often go together, so given the overall thrust of your argument maybe this is besides the point. However, another poster brought it up earlier, so I'm curious. For example, would you prefer a 32 ft boat with 8k displacement over a 27 ft boat with 10k displacement?

I'm also assuming that wave period would also be a factor, though since we're talking offshore I'm assuming we're talking about longer-period waves. Given that you're camping on Lake Superior, I wonder if you know the Lakes and would be in a position to compare short-period lake waves to longer-period offshore waves? I've beat into 6' lake waves with 30 kts wind, and wonder how it would feel to beat into longer-period ocean waves.

[Carl Thunberg]

I understand the challenges with launching heavy boats and am prepared for them.

Getting back to your original post, I'm curious how you are prepared for the challenges of launching heavy boats? That means different things to different people. My preparation for launching heavy boats is to hire a professional who has a Travelift and a crane. There are just so many ways to get seriously injured trying to do this yourself.

[fritz3000g]

I'm curious how you are prepared for the challenges of launching heavy boats

Good point. Probably the biggest reason I feel comfortable is my background as an engineer and long experience calculating loads, leverages, tolerances, etc... both beforehand and on the fly when I get into a jam.

I think there are several issues at play, including how to get the trailer deep enough to float the boat. But mast raising is likely to be the hardest and most dangerous part.

In practical terms, I've had a lot of practice on the issues that come up with my Mac 25. It's not an especially heavy boat (2400 lbs loaded) and I can raise the mast by hand if I do it just right. However, in trying to learn how to do it I experimented with a variety of mast raising and rigging systems which used mechanical advantages, etc...

I would plan to work with a welder to modify the trailer in such a way that I can add a removable pulley that sits about 10' above the level of the deck and an electric winch that feeds a cable through the pulley to the mast. I haven't decided whether to attach the other end of the cable to a halyard (or two), a fitting on the mast itself, or something else. I'd set the electric winch to stop the raising automatically, initiating (and emergency stopping of necessary) using remote control. I'd guide the mast into place myself, using baby stays if necessary (say when it's windy) to ensure it stays straight.

The other thing I've learned is that before I raise I check the positions of all shrouds, stays, and lines three times and observe all the places they could get hung up. One advantage to using a winch is that I can stop every few feet while raising and re-check (at least if I'm using baby stays).

Was that what you were wondering?